Josh Donaldson traded to [the Indians] for something because Passan says so

[Schad]

We didn't look past 2018. The hope was that we'd sell tickets, because attendance was good in 2017, and then we'd figure it out. Didn't really work, as attendance sucked from the off, and so did the team.

[So_Fresh]

Granderson to Brewers per Rosenthal

Thanks. Any word on what we got back in return from the Brewers?

[The_Hater]

But how did they try to compete? They didn't expand the payroll. The fan turnout has been severely dwindling the last two years. And there's not a single move anyone can point to over the last 3 years that indicates this front office has been attempting to put a team out there that can compete.

They actually had the 8th largest payroll in MLB on opening day, 2018. The Yankees were 9th.

On top of all the shortsighted moves they made trying to put a competitive team on the field the past 2 seasons, the bigger mistake was they made no attempt to trade their veterans for prospects and hung onto JD, Happ, Smoak, and many others much longer than they should have. What they were left with was grossly diminished value or sometimes no trade value on these vets. Poor asset management stunts the rebuilding process.

8th largest by virtue of having Donaldson, Tulo, and Martin taking up $60 million of the ~$150 million payroll. Otherwise, the rest of the roster ranks near the bottom of the league. Like, bottom 5-10 payroll. None of the teams in that range are even attempting to compete.

Your poor grasp of the facts aside, you seem focused on all the wrong things. The Jays were definitley trying to field a winning team the past 2 seasons, there’s not even a competent argument that can be made to the contrary. If you want to argue that they make terrible moves in pursuit of thst goal, sure, that makes sense, but they definitley weren’t trying to rebuild which is exactly what they should have been doing.

[sule]

They actually had the 8th largest payroll in MLB on opening day, 2018. The Yankees were 9th.

On top of all the shortsighted moves they made trying to put a competitive team on the field the past 2 seasons, the bigger mistake was they made no attempt to trade their veterans for prospects and hung onto JD, Happ, Smoak, and many others much longer than they should have. What they were left with was grossly diminished value or sometimes no trade value on these vets. Poor asset management stunts the rebuilding process.

8th largest by virtue of having Donaldson, Tulo, and Martin taking up $60 million of the ~$150 million payroll. Otherwise, the rest of the roster ranks near the bottom of the league. Like, bottom 5-10 payroll. None of the teams in that range are even attempting to compete.

Your poor grasp of the facts aside, you seem focused on all the wrong things. The Jays were definitley trying to field a winning team the past 2 seasons, there’s not even a competent argument that can be made to the contrary. If you want to argue that they make terrible moves in pursuit of thst goal, sure, that makes sense, but they definitley weren’t trying to rebuild which is exactly what they should have been doing.

Yeah, sure...poor grasp of the fact that our payroll has been tied to three players earning a good chunk of the budget, while the rest of the team was filled with warm bodies that don't move the needle at all. Players who were either castoffs, bench players for other teams, or just on the downside of their careers, or pretty much at the end. Tell me how Upton, Grichuk, Granderson, Smoak, Morales, Pearce, etc, are players who scream "we're trying to contend"?

3 years into this regime and there's still a series of endless apologies for this FO doing nothing to push this team in any direction.

Only now, at the deadlines are we seeing them try to rebuild, and the returns have been underwhelming largely due to their meandering.

[Brinbe]

Have not at all beeen a fan of the way Shatkins and co has run the team the past few years. Not at all. This present situation was something we all foresaw a few years ago and instead of shedding old guys on big deals, they insisted on making a WC run instead of rebuilding because they thought Toronto fans are morons and would support a treadmill team. The Jays aren't the Leafs. People won't waste money on a team without a clear vision or direction.

So now we are rebuilding, not by design, but because we suck. So they're Baseball Colangelo's as far as I'm concerned, wherein they talk a good game but the results don't match the rhetoric. But I'll wait till I see how they build around Vlad Jr and the rest of the youth before I completely disregard them.

I don't get people caping for them at all. Failing upward and getting to where you should be by losing shouldn't be rewarded. That was the old Raptors and Leafs pre-Leiweke.

[Tanner]

Shapiro publicly said he would have rebuilt after 2016 if it wasn’t for the fans (translated that means due to attendance/revenue/Rogers), so the front office should not be getting the blame for team direction. They hedged their bets in the off season but JD got hurt so they couldn’t trade him in July with everyone else. Lost value but due to injury more than timing.

The real lost value was Osuna, and they still did ok there. If they traded him a year earlier then the return would have dwarfed anything JD could have commanded in the last 12 months.

[The_Hater]

8th largest by virtue of having Donaldson, Tulo, and Martin taking up $60 million of the ~$150 million payroll. Otherwise, the rest of the roster ranks near the bottom of the league. Like, bottom 5-10 payroll. None of the teams in that range are even attempting to compete.

Your poor grasp of the facts aside, you seem focused on all the wrong things. The Jays were definitley trying to field a winning team the past 2 seasons, there’s not even a competent argument that can be made to the contrary. If you want to argue that they make terrible moves in pursuit of thst goal, sure, that makes sense, but they definitley weren’t trying to rebuild which is exactly what they should have been doing.

Yeah, sure...poor grasp of the fact that our payroll has been tied to three players earning a good chunk of the budget, while the rest of the team was filled with warm bodies that don't move the needle at all. Players who were either castoffs, bench players for other teams, or just on the downside of their careers, or pretty much at the end. Tell me how Upton, Grichuk, Granderson, Smoak, Morales, Pearce, etc, are players who scream "we're trying to contend"?

3 years into this regime and there's still a series of endless apologies for this FO doing nothing to push this team in any direction.

Only now, at the deadlines are we seeing them try to rebuild, and the returns have been underwhelming largely due to their meandering.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying the entire thread, do you just argue with the people for the sake of arguing?

Guess what, if you’re keeping all your veteran players, holding a huge payroll, signing veteran fee agents and not making a single move that pushes you towards a rebuilding direction then you’re trying to compete. Just because they didn’t spend $200 million on free agent XXX doesn’t mean differently. .

[Scott Hall]

Read on Twitter

[dagger]

Who had PTBNL in the pool for Donaldson?

Read on Twitter

[sule]

Who had PTBNL in the pool for Donaldson?

Read on Twitter

*raises hand*

[Wo1verine]

My guess is Aaron Civale or Elijah Morgan.

[sule]

Your poor grasp of the facts aside, you seem focused on all the wrong things. The Jays were definitley trying to field a winning team the past 2 seasons, there’s not even a competent argument that can be made to the contrary. If you want to argue that they make terrible moves in pursuit of thst goal, sure, that makes sense, but they definitley weren’t trying to rebuild which is exactly what they should have been doing.

Yeah, sure...poor grasp of the fact that our payroll has been tied to three players earning a good chunk of the budget, while the rest of the team was filled with warm bodies that don't move the needle at all. Players who were either castoffs, bench players for other teams, or just on the downside of their careers, or pretty much at the end. Tell me how Upton, Grichuk, Granderson, Smoak, Morales, Pearce, etc, are players who scream "we're trying to contend"?

3 years into this regime and there's still a series of endless apologies for this FO doing nothing to push this team in any direction.

Only now, at the deadlines are we seeing them try to rebuild, and the returns have been underwhelming largely due to their meandering.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying the entire thread, do you just argue with the people for the sake of arguing?

Guess what, if you’re keeping all your veteran players, holding a huge payroll, signing veteran fee agents and not making a single move that pushes you towards a rebuilding direction then you’re trying to compete. Just because they didn’t spend $200 million on free agent XXX doesn’t mean differently. .

Sounds like you and me just have different ideas on what it means for a team to attempt competing. I don't view it as a zero-sum game, where you're either rebuilding or competing. Hence why I continue to refer to it as meandering.

I guess i'm not naive enough to buy the idea that signing guys like Morales and Pearce and Granderson was an attempt to compete. To me, it was exactly what it was, passing time they could bring up prospects. In basketball terms, they were simply treadmilling.

[SharoneWright]

If we're sending cash, we should be able to buy ourselves up the Indians' prospect list. My guess is we'll cheap out.

[vaff87]

Is it possibly Noah Naylor?

[Schad]

Is it possibly Noah Naylor?

Significant in this context likely means "has been heard of by someone in the industry before". I'd be beyond shocked if it was anyone approaching the value of Naylor. I'd be pleased if it was one of the top 20 prospects in their organization.

[vaff87]

Is it possibly Noah Naylor?

Significant in this context likely means "has been heard of by someone in the industry before". I'd be beyond shocked if it was anyone approaching the value of Naylor. I'd be pleased if it was one of the top 20 prospects in their organization.

I just guessed him based on: 1. the fact he’s a draft pick from this year, so I’m not sure if he can technically be traded 2. Where he’s from.

[Tanner]

Probably someone on their 40 man roster. Shot in the dark, maybe Oscar Mercado?

[phillipmike]

Read on Twitter

[phillipmike]

https://www.letsgotribe.com/2018/2/7/16984816/julian-merryweather-is-our-no-17-prospect-who-should-be-no-18-2018-indians-prospects-countdown

[Tanner]

Yeah, sure...poor grasp of the fact that our payroll has been tied to three players earning a good chunk of the budget, while the rest of the team was filled with warm bodies that don't move the needle at all. Players who were either castoffs, bench players for other teams, or just on the downside of their careers, or pretty much at the end. Tell me how Upton, Grichuk, Granderson, Smoak, Morales, Pearce, etc, are players who scream "we're trying to contend"?

3 years into this regime and there's still a series of endless apologies for this FO doing nothing to push this team in any direction.

Only now, at the deadlines are we seeing them try to rebuild, and the returns have been underwhelming largely due to their meandering.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying the entire thread, do you just argue with the people for the sake of arguing?

Guess what, if you’re keeping all your veteran players, holding a huge payroll, signing veteran fee agents and not making a single move that pushes you towards a rebuilding direction then you’re trying to compete. Just because they didn’t spend $200 million on free agent XXX doesn’t mean differently. .

Sounds like you and me just have different ideas on what it means for a team to attempt competing. I don't view it as a zero-sum game, where you're either rebuilding or competing. Hence why I continue to refer to it as meandering.

I guess i'm not naive enough to buy the idea that signing guys like Morales and Pearce and Granderson was an attempt to compete. To me, it was exactly what it was, passing time they could bring up prospects. In basketball terms, they were simply treadmilling.

They weren’t going to go all in for a 2nd wild card run. The whole point of the last two seasons has been to compete for a WC spot without sacrificing the farm system or adding any bad contracts. They hedged their bets. They knew that either the team was going to contend or if the team didn’t then they could pivot easily (which is what we are seeing now).

They’ve been rebuilding for three years but under Rogers they had to do in the background, while trying to keep the team in the playoff picture after 2015/16.