ImageImageImageImageImage

Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019

Moderator: JaysRule15

Black Watch
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,339
And1: 762
Joined: Apr 23, 2014
Contact:
   

Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#1 » by Black Watch » Wed Oct 3, 2018 9:28 pm

We have little SP depth, and not much of a pen, but can we not pick some arms off the scrap heap and bullpen our way through 2019 a la the Tampa Bay Rays and their use of 'The Opener' this year?

Given how well they developed SP in Cleveland, it's not clear that Shatkins would be open to this approach, but they are open to ideas, more so than previous front offices, so it's not impossible.

What do you guys think?
Black Watch and Hamyltowne, my former usernames, are tartan patterns. Nothing to do with any race or any city.
Black Watch
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,339
And1: 762
Joined: Apr 23, 2014
Contact:
   

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#2 » by Black Watch » Wed Oct 3, 2018 9:29 pm

Plus Sanchez in the bullpen would be more valuable under this scenario.
Black Watch and Hamyltowne, my former usernames, are tartan patterns. Nothing to do with any race or any city.
North_of_Border
Pro Prospect
Posts: 910
And1: 369
Joined: May 18, 2014
   

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#3 » by North_of_Border » Wed Oct 3, 2018 9:41 pm

Black Watch wrote:Plus Sanchez in the bullpen would be more valuable under this scenario.
Interesting but....

I think it would be a Huge waste of an asset to put Sanchez in the pen "at this point". He is a top rotation ace when healthy. Plus if he keeps getting sidelined, you trade him. Not full value, but a team will pay a good price for a young controllable ace. Someone will bite, no doubt about it. And the return will be more than a simple bullpen arm.

If the Jays were a contender. And just lost osuna. Then I would try Sanchez in the pen. But as a rebuilding team. It's a waste of a valuable asset

Sent from my HTC Desire 728 dual sim using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 57,353
And1: 17,052
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#4 » by Schad » Wed Oct 3, 2018 10:10 pm

Sanchez isn't an ace; he might not even be a good fifth starter. You start him in the hopes that he catches lightning in a bottle again, sure, but I don't think you plan around him at this point.

I'm open to the idea, but our bullpen heading into next year is pretty weak, all told; now, bullpens can be highly unpredictable, so it could well come together, and we could well spend money on mid-tier relievers to be flipped later (not a bad idea, IMO). But absent that, we're probably not one of the best candidates to experiment.
Image
**** your asterisk.
dagger
RealGM
Posts: 40,527
And1: 13,448
Joined: Aug 19, 2002
         

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#5 » by dagger » Tue Oct 9, 2018 5:40 pm

Schad wrote:Sanchez isn't an ace; he might not even be a good fifth starter. You start him in the hopes that he catches lightning in a bottle again, sure, but I don't think you plan around him at this point.

I'm open to the idea, but our bullpen heading into next year is pretty weak, all told; now, bullpens can be highly unpredictable, so it could well come together, and we could well spend money on mid-tier relievers to be flipped later (not a bad idea, IMO). But absent that, we're probably not one of the best candidates to experiment.


Right now our bullpen has Giles as closer, Tepera as setup (or Clippard if we bring him back). Mayza emerged as a decent left-hander. Given the mission in 2019, I don't think this is a bad start. No need to spend decent money, just let it role, maybe look for a rehabber who might prove worthy of a prospect at the deadline.
2019 will never be forgotten because FLAGS FLY FOREVER
North_of_Border
Pro Prospect
Posts: 910
And1: 369
Joined: May 18, 2014
   

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#6 » by North_of_Border » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:10 am

Ok so Sanchez is not a front line Ace. But it still makes no sense putting him in the pen of the "blue Jays". Not when the team is no where near contending. Best thing to do is let him start. Build value and deal him or keep him as a starter.

Sanchez had injury troubles. But when healthy he flashed ace stuff. I truly believe he flipped because of injuries the past couple years. He has controllable years and the Jays can afford to wait. Why not let him work around it?
Black Watch
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,339
And1: 762
Joined: Apr 23, 2014
Contact:
   

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#7 » by Black Watch » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:23 am

North_of_Border wrote:Sanchez had injury troubles. But when healthy he flashed ace stuff. I truly believe he flipped because of injuries the past couple years. He has controllable years and the Jays can afford to wait. Why not let him work around it?

He doesn't strike out enough batters to be an 'Ace.' He's good, but not Ace good.
Black Watch and Hamyltowne, my former usernames, are tartan patterns. Nothing to do with any race or any city.
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 57,353
And1: 17,052
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#8 » by Schad » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:57 pm

I'm not so sure he's even good. His sample of good is one year with solid, but not spectacular peripherals, set against the rest of his career where he has struggled mightily to throw strikes. Injuries have certainly hampered him, but they might have also preserved the mystique of 2016.
Image
**** your asterisk.
User avatar
Skin Blues
Veteran
Posts: 2,624
And1: 871
Joined: Nov 24, 2010

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#9 » by Skin Blues » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:45 pm

A guy that lacks command as bad as he does will have a tough time. It's gonna take some kind of mechanical change. Find more consistency in his delivery, maybe scrapping the windup. Honestly, the fact that so many pitchers have two different types of deliveries at this point is baffling. There's no benefit to the windup at all, really. You don't throw harder, and it's not better for your arm. We've known this for a long time. It's pretty crazy when you think about it.
Black Watch
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,339
And1: 762
Joined: Apr 23, 2014
Contact:
   

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#10 » by Black Watch » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:33 am

https://jaysjournal.com/2018/10/28/blue-jays-charlie-montoyo-possibility-opener-toronto/

What exactly is an opener?

In case you aren’t familiar with the concept of an opener, let me quickly introduce the idea. In essence, an opener is a relief pitcher who pitches the first inning (or first few innings) of a baseball game. Its advantages include:

Taking advantage of any platoon splits against the top hitters in the lineup.
Allowing the starting pitcher to get acclimated into the game against the bottom half of the lineup.
Preventing the starting pitcher from facing the top hitters in the lineup more than two or three times.
It is important to note that since the opener is a relief pitcher, they are already used to quickly getting acclimated into a ballgame and pitching against the top hitters in a lineup.


How could it help the Blue Jays?

While every team would love to have five major league caliber starters, in reality, not many teams (including the Blue Jays) are fortunate to have this luxury. This is where the idea of the opener comes in.

As of right now, the 2019 rotation looks to consist of Marcus Stroman, Aaron Sanchez, Ryan Borucki, and some combination of Sam Gaviglio, Sean Reid-Foley, Thomas Pannone, and a free agent signing (or two). Outside of Marcus Stroman, none of those names have pitched over 200 innings in a season.

If the Blue Jays were to incorporate an opener in three to four games every week, it would allow them to more effectively control the innings of both the younger pitchers and an injury-prone Aaron Sanchez. And not only that, it may also give Joe Biagini the perfect role to thrive in.


Who could be openers?

As Blue Jays fans probably know too well, Joe Biagini failed as a starter. He was extremely effective out of the bullpen in 2016 which prompted the Blue Jays to try and re-convert him back into a starter. Unfortunately, Biagini’s stuff wasn’t good enough to face a lineup two or three times, and the results showed. That being said, the opener could be the perfect role for Biagini. His stuff plays up in short 1-2 inning bursts, and he’s used to the before-game routine of a starter. This could be a great way for the Blue Jays to restore Biagini’s confidence.

If not Biagini, then another candidate that comes to mind is David Paulino. Acquired in the Ken Giles trade this year, Paulino was a top prospect for the Astros in the not-too-distant past. Injuries have slowed down his career so far, but MLB.com is still impressed with Paulino’s stuff. Both Paulino’s fastball and curveball are given a rating of 60, while his changeup and control are given a rating of 55. For those not too familiar with the rating of prospect tools, 55/60 are deemed above average.

The role of the opener could potentially decrease the risk of injury for the Dominican native while keeping him in the comfortable environment of starting games. Furthermore, his already above-average stuff could play up even more which is an exciting prospect.


Nothing to lose, so why not?

In a rebuilding 2019 season for the Toronto Blue Jays, trying out the opener is a good idea. If it proves to be effective, then the Blue Jays have a competitive advantage over most of the league. If not, then nothing is really lost. With so many potential gains and a season intended for experimentation and acclimation, Charlie Montoyo should go ahead and give the the opener a shot. There’s nothing to lose, so why not?


https://jaysjournal.com/2018/10/28/blue-jays-charlie-montoyo-possibility-opener-toronto/
Black Watch and Hamyltowne, my former usernames, are tartan patterns. Nothing to do with any race or any city.
Black Watch
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,339
And1: 762
Joined: Apr 23, 2014
Contact:
   

Re: Bullpenning with The Opener in 2019 

Post#11 » by Black Watch » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:36 am

Charlie Montoyo wrote:"Well, you know, I was in charge of the shifting with the Rays, and I saw it work, so I'm going to bring that to Toronto. And The Opener. At the end of the day with The Opener, you have to have good pitching, so if we have the right people to do it, we're going to do it because I saw it work. That's two things that I'm going to bring from Tampa."


Skip to the 2:40 mark to hear it for yourself.



But then Atkins quickly clarified that it's more of a Plan B:

The one thing the Blue Jays don't intend to do is purposely schedule bullpen days. They do not want to have one spot in the rotation that requires multiple innings from multiple relievers on a regular basis, and instead the club will focus on coming up with a traditional starting five.

The only debate within that starting five is whether all five will start the game in the first inning or whether some will be brought in a little bit later. Toronto currently projects to have Marcus Stroman, Aaron Sanchez and Ryan Borucki in the rotation with a slew of arms in competition for the final two spots, and more additions likely on the way through free agency.

"We're planning on filling the rotation with guys who are starters and looking to build a pitching staff more in line with what fans are accustomed to," Blue Jays general manager Ross Atkins said. "Having said that, the season could start, we could have one injury and that could completely change that, performance could completely change that. But we're going to look to acquire as many starters as we can."

https://www.mlb.com/bluejays/news/blue-jays-discuss-opener-strategy-for-2019/c-301741018
Black Watch and Hamyltowne, my former usernames, are tartan patterns. Nothing to do with any race or any city.

Return to Toronto Blue Jays