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Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7)

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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#121 » by Black Watch » Sun Apr 7, 2019 7:39 pm

Gurriel is painful to watch at the plate
YogiStewart is human garbage.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#122 » by BigLeagueChew » Sun Apr 7, 2019 7:51 pm

day off then 2 game series against boston next(red sox home opener),with a day off between those games as well.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#123 » by ratul » Sun Apr 7, 2019 9:34 pm

Another Day another L and another day closer to firing Shapiro.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#124 » by Lateral Quicks » Sun Apr 7, 2019 9:45 pm

BigLeagueChew wrote:day off then 2 game series against boston next(red sox home opener),with a day off between those games as well.


On average, the Jays score approximately the same number or runs in their games as they do their days off.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#125 » by JaysRule15 » Sun Apr 7, 2019 11:07 pm

So how does the 2020 draft look like. We're guaranteed a Top 3-5 pick.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#126 » by So_Fresh » Sun Apr 7, 2019 11:39 pm

Blue Jays become 4th team ever to strike out at least 13 times in 4 straight games.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#127 » by Scorpion King » Sun Apr 7, 2019 11:49 pm

I have been closely watching the home game attendance. It has plumetted. With the way this team is playing I wouldnt be surprised to see attendance under 10,000.

This team is unwatchable and wont be attending any games this year. Shapiro/Atkins really screwed up the team. This team is unwatchable and they give that bum grichuk $50M.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#128 » by YelloC » Mon Apr 8, 2019 1:22 am

What the heck does Billy McKinney bring to the team. I cannot find 1 redeeming quality. This team is filled with 0-1 tool players(minus the pitchers who will be traded for a bunch more no tool players)
Shatkins asset management has been atrocious.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#129 » by Tanner » Mon Apr 8, 2019 2:49 am

This is what rebuilding looks like, especially when the team makes no effort to field a competitive rebuilding team, and holds its prospects back (with Vlad it makes sense) in an effort to field a lineup of long shots hoping one pans out.

This is why the team should not have done a scorched earth rebuild. They should have done a more subtle one behind the scenes while still adding talent in an effort to field a team we as fans could at least feel prideful watching.

Great management zig when everyone else zags. Atkins just did what half the league is doing and is expecting better results than everyone else. I'm a lot less confident in this front office than I used to be.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#130 » by Schad » Mon Apr 8, 2019 3:54 am

We did a scorched-earth rebuild because it was basically the last option left. Subtlety was not really an option here; we haven't even really subtracted any pieces of great value. The players shipped out since last season -- Diaz, Martin, Pillar, Tulo, Morales, etc -- aren't good players. They range from fringe-average to awful, and even if we spent some money, we would still be a very bad baseball team, but we'd be a very bad baseball team blocking our prospects. People keep acting as if we can just push the "win 15 more games" button. A couple modest upgrades wouldn't substantively change where we are, because we are simply badly short on talent, and the sorts of players who would be substantial upgrades are i) older, ii) would take multi-year deals that would reduce our flexibility.

This is the natural consequence of the decisions we made from 2015 - 2017, decisions that all of the people bitching now were cheering for. And when it was raised at the time that we'd end up being horrible in a few years as a result, I and others were told that was fine, that all that mattered was getting to the playoffs. Well, we had the good, now we have to suffer the bad.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#131 » by spykelee » Mon Apr 8, 2019 4:52 am

So_Fresh wrote:Blue Jays become 4th team ever to strike out at least 13 times in 4 straight games.
And if we do it once more we can set the record. And who do we face next??? Oh right, Chris sale, and the red sox raising their world series banners... history here we come!

Though the jays are just baffling enough to go out and put the boots to sale in that game and perplex everyone.

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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#132 » by Marmoset » Mon Apr 8, 2019 5:26 am

Schad wrote:This is the natural consequence of the decisions we made from 2015 - 2017, decisions that all of the people bitching now were cheering for. And when it was raised at the time that we'd end up being horrible in a few years as a result, I and others were told that was fine, that all that mattered was getting to the playoffs. Well, we had the good, now we have to suffer the bad.


I basically agree with all of this. The one thing that I'm finding difficult and didn't expect is that the team would be this unwatchable. When a team is in the dumps you'd like to see a guy or two with some speed on the bases, some flair on defence, SOMETHING to provide some entertainment value. Watching a parade of K's with mediocre defence is flat out boring. Fortunately Vlad should be here soon, and there is no way the offence stays quite this bad all season.

One criticism of Shapiro/Atkins I agree with is I don't like the acquisitions of guys like Drury, McKinney, etc. (I'd include Grichuk in the list but that deal was a little different). I would have preferred going for prospects farther away from the majors, but with a better chance to become something. Perhaps those types of guys weren't available; perhaps they have different evaluations of these players. We will see. Overall I think they've taken the right approach.

I think those who think Shapiro/Atkins are to blame for the current state of the team are suffering from unrealistic expectations based on where the team was. They won in 2015-2016 but with the oldest roster in MLB; there was nowhere to go but down. We simply don't know if these guys are doing a good job, and won't for at least a couple more years.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#133 » by So_Fresh » Mon Apr 8, 2019 1:05 pm

I don't mind the rebuild but man this putrid offense and record breaking strikeouts is ridiculous. It needs to be addressed. Who in their right mind is going to watch a baseball team that strikes out in double digits each game and who can't manufacture enough runs to win a game?? Having good pitching is nice, but you have to score runs to win games.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#134 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Apr 8, 2019 2:13 pm

What's most interesting to me about this dynamic of no offense but solid pitching is that the defense has actually been okay. In particular, Danny Jansen was supposed to be a bat-first catcher with questionable defense. So far, he's actually been pretty good defensively and manages games rather well but his bat has been awful. If his bat ever comes around and the other stuff holds, he's going to be pretty good.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#135 » by JaysRule15 » Mon Apr 8, 2019 4:40 pm

It's not going to be this bad all season long. Just unfortunate that most of the team has started off cold offensively. We have some guys in this lineup who are capable of a lot more than what they've shown so far.

Plus Vladdy is coming up next month hopefully, and that's a reason to watch games in itself.

Looking at things positively, at least our starting pitching looks solid lol.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#136 » by vaff87 » Mon Apr 8, 2019 4:57 pm

JaysRule15 wrote:It's not going to be this bad all season long. Just unfortunate that most of the team has started off cold offensively. We have some guys in this lineup who are capable of a lot more than what they've shown so far.

Plus Vladdy is coming up next month hopefully, and that's a reason to watch games in itself.

Looking at things positively, at least our starting pitching looks solid lol.


Yeah, people acting like we're going to hit .180 with a wRC+ of 63 all year. We're bad, but not this bad, offensively, anyway.

Also, there are four teams actually hitting worse than us. However, we just got swept by one of them.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#137 » by JaysRule15 » Mon Apr 8, 2019 5:25 pm

vaff87 wrote:
JaysRule15 wrote:It's not going to be this bad all season long. Just unfortunate that most of the team has started off cold offensively. We have some guys in this lineup who are capable of a lot more than what they've shown so far.

Plus Vladdy is coming up next month hopefully, and that's a reason to watch games in itself.

Looking at things positively, at least our starting pitching looks solid lol.


Yeah, people acting like we're going to hit .180 with a wRC+ of 63 all year. We're bad, but not this bad, offensively, anyway.

Also, there are four teams actually hitting worse than us. However, we just got swept by one of them.


Did you read this article.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/kevin-pillar-giants-environment-something-havent-experienced-mlb/

I hate our media, man. Always taking stuff out of context and trying to stir stuff up for no reason.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#138 » by BigLeagueChew » Mon Apr 8, 2019 5:29 pm

Schad wrote:We did a scorched-earth rebuild because it was basically the last option left. Subtlety was not really an option here; we haven't even really subtracted any pieces of great value. The players shipped out since last season -- Diaz, Martin, Pillar, Tulo, Morales, etc -- aren't good players. They range from fringe-average to awful, and even if we spent some money, we would still be a very bad baseball team, but we'd be a very bad baseball team blocking our prospects. People keep acting as if we can just push the "win 15 more games" button. A couple modest upgrades wouldn't substantively change where we are, because we are simply badly short on talent, and the sorts of players who would be substantial upgrades are i) older, ii) would take multi-year deals that would reduce our flexibility.

This is the natural consequence of the decisions we made from 2015 - 2017, decisions that all of the people bitching now were cheering for. And when it was raised at the time that we'd end up being horrible in a few years as a result, I and others were told that was fine, that all that mattered was getting to the playoffs. Well, we had the good, now we have to suffer the bad.


Could you speculate what it would be like right now if we started this process 2-3 years ago?
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#139 » by Tanner » Mon Apr 8, 2019 8:23 pm

Schad wrote:We did a scorched-earth rebuild because it was basically the last option left. Subtlety was not really an option here; we haven't even really subtracted any pieces of great value. The players shipped out since last season -- Diaz, Martin, Pillar, Tulo, Morales, etc -- aren't good players. They range from fringe-average to awful, and even if we spent some money, we would still be a very bad baseball team, but we'd be a very bad baseball team blocking our prospects. People keep acting as if we can just push the "win 15 more games" button. A couple modest upgrades wouldn't substantively change where we are, because we are simply badly short on talent, and the sorts of players who would be substantial upgrades are i) older, ii) would take multi-year deals that would reduce our flexibility.

This is the natural consequence of the decisions we made from 2015 - 2017, decisions that all of the people bitching now were cheering for. And when it was raised at the time that we'd end up being horrible in a few years as a result, I and others were told that was fine, that all that mattered was getting to the playoffs. Well, we had the good, now we have to suffer the bad.


But the problem was they couldn't rebuild two years ago, and didn't want to 'double down' on a declining core, so it resulted in Morales, Pearce, Granderson, Garcia, etc. Fast forward two years, and the free agent market is a lot more advantageous. Good players signing for nothing. Adam Jones is probably a 1-2 war player, but that might sadly be McKinney or Teoscar's upside. Why not just pay $3m to get the far likelier two wins rather than hope and pray that fringe talent suddenly improve to become as good as that?

This team is one year away from an influx of their young position players coming up. I don't see why they couldn't have spent a bit to add talent (not necessarily Jones, he was just an example). Sure maybe that means 78 wins instead of 70, but that doesn't change the direction of the team while giving the fans at least a palatable product to watch for a season.

If they weren't going to rebuild two years ago, but decide to after all their trade assets are either gone or depreciated to dust, then what was the point of the last two years? "Faking contention" and scorched earth practically have no difference when you have no vet trade assets to trade anymore. There is probably more value in extending Stroman, Sanchez, and Giles than there is in trading them because that's how the market is going. The front office in hindsight misjudged practically everything.
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Re: Jays @ Indians (4 game series. April 4-7) 

Post#140 » by Schad » Mon Apr 8, 2019 9:26 pm

Tanner wrote:But the problem was they couldn't rebuild two years ago, and didn't want to 'double down' on a declining core, so it resulted in Morales, Pearce, Granderson, Garcia, etc. Fast forward two years, and the free agent market is a lot more advantageous. Good players signing for nothing. Adam Jones is probably a 1-2 war player, but that might sadly be McKinney or Teoscar's upside. Why not just pay $3m to get the far likelier two wins rather than hope and pray that fringe talent suddenly improve to become as good as that?

This team is one year away from an influx of their young position players coming up. I don't see why they couldn't have spent a bit to add talent (not necessarily Jones, he was just an example). Sure maybe that means 78 wins instead of 70, but that doesn't change the direction of the team while giving the fans at least a palatable product to watch for a season.


While there's a good chance that Teoscar and McKinney etc are not going to amount to anything, there's far more value in finding that out (and finding out whether Grichuk can handle CF on a regular basis, which would significantly boost his value) rather than bringing in an Adam Jones. And Jones isn't a good player signing for nothing; he signed for nothing specifically because he's no longer very good. He's an awful defensive CF with a fringe-average bat, and a couple hot weeks doesn't change than any more than it more Freddy Galvis the next Carlos Correa.

You're also really underestimating even what it'd take to get from 70 wins to 78 here, assuming this is a 70 win team. You aren't going to do it with Adam Joneses; we'd have had to spend a pretty significant amount of money, and over a longer term, to be merely below-average, and given that we have prospects coming up in basically every position save corner OF, we don't have a lot of room for 1 WAR veterans without creating a logjam.


If they weren't going to rebuild two years ago, but decide to after all their trade assets are either gone or depreciated to dust, then what was the point of the last two years? "Faking contention" and scorched earth practically have no difference when you have no vet trade assets to trade anymore. There is probably more value in extending Stroman, Sanchez, and Giles than there is in trading them because that's how the market is going. The front office in hindsight misjudged practically everything.


Giving relievers substantial extensions is, in general, a bad idea. Their performance, and health, are so variable; Giles should be traded.

Similarly, Sanchez (if he reestablishes value) has so many red flags. He has one season of okay control to his name across the totality of his professional career; if you were extending him, you'd necessarily have to be dangling starter money to make it worth his while, and it's still up in the air whether he's a major league quality starter.

Stroman's the only one I'd really consider extending, and that really depends on what he's after. If he's willing to take a deal commensurate with a decent-enough #2 starter, I'm game. If he wants to be paid like the ace he believes himself to be, I'm happy for someone else to foot the bill, and that's a decision that needs to be made in the next couple months.
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