Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson

[Raps in 4]

[

Speaking of Masai, AA had a lot in common with him, which explains his continued popularity among the fan base.

You spent years calling for Masai to be fired, though:

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Masai is an idiot for letting Casey dictate the offseason moves. I can't wait until they both get fired.

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Meh. Masai just pretending to do something since he cant fire Casey

What a joke

This clown should fire himself next.

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sounds like a bunch of BS to me.. sounds like another bargnani, jose & BC situation where it felt like they were going to be destroying this team forever.. now its Casey.. this team can't ever get anything right

Because we continue to hire idiot GMs.

The Masai hire is a perfect example of our ineptitude in that regard. We fired BC for being terrible and then hired his former prodigy as our new GM.

I did because he didn't do anything during the first few years of his tenure. He just ran back BC's core for half a decade without rebuilding or committing to a title run. He was great at drafting, but did nothing to cash those chips in (or to put the team in a better position to draft a superstar) for years.

His "wait and see" approach paid off in the end, but his approach didn't instil confidence. His NBA career, up to that point, had been defined by passivity and a lack of results.

Now that we know Masai is willing to make bold moves, at the expense of stability, he has a lot more in common with AA. They both know how to accumulate assets and cash them in.

[Black Watch]

For one, letting EE go got a comp pick that because Nate Pearson, the team's best pitching prospect. And Morales and Gurriel share an agent and it was widely whispered that they were a package deal at the time and that Morales was simply a part of the price for getting Gurriel. With that in mind, Shapiro and Atkins found a way to add Pearson and Gurriel without making any trades and are being absolutely vilified for it when it was one of the most astute series of moves I've seen in a while.

Preach!

[Schad]

I did because he didn't do anything during the first few years of his tenure. He just ran back BC's core for half a decade without rebuilding or committing to a title run. He was great at drafting, but did nothing to cash those chips in (or to put the team in a better position to draft a superstar) for years.

His "wait and see" approach paid off in the end, but his approach didn't instil confidence. His NBA career, up to that point, had been defined by passivity and a lack of results.

Now that we know Masai is willing to make bold moves, at the expense of stability, he has a lot more in common with AA. They both know how to accumulate assets and cash them in.

That's my point, though. Our current management is in the accumulation stage still, and while I don't love a number of the trades they've made, they have also vastly improved what was a pretty barren talent base in a fairly short period of time. If we keep calling for people to be fired during the patient build-up phase, they won't be there for the turn-it-into-actual-success phase.

[Raps in 4]

I did because he didn't do anything during the first few years of his tenure. He just ran back BC's core for half a decade without rebuilding or committing to a title run. He was great at drafting, but did nothing to cash those chips in (or to put the team in a better position to draft a superstar) for years.

His "wait and see" approach paid off in the end, but his approach didn't instil confidence. His NBA career, up to that point, had been defined by passivity and a lack of results.

Now that we know Masai is willing to make bold moves, at the expense of stability, he has a lot more in common with AA. They both know how to accumulate assets and cash them in.

That's my point, though. Our current management is in the accumulation stage still, and while I don't love a number of the trades they've made, they have also vastly improved what was a pretty barren talent base in a fairly short period of time. If we keep calling for people to be fired during the patient build-up phase, they won't be there for the turn-it-into-actual-success phase.

I don't think we need to fire Shatkins. They've done a passable job so far. Nor do I think this trade is terrible (it's not great, but not terrible). I do feel that we'd be further along in the rebuild had we retained AA though.

[Schad]

I disagree there. Our drafting under AA, outside of 2010 when he gamed the system, wasn't actually all that good.

Perhaps he'd have had the latitude to rebuild earlier, which would have helped, but I doubt it; our ownership wanted the revenue. From 2011 to 2015, our (signed) 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders:

1st/supp rounders: Kevin Comer, Dwight Smith Jr, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Anderson, Tyler Gonzales, Mitch Nay, Matt Smoral, Marcus Stroman, DJ Davis, Max Pentecost, Jeff Hoffman, Jon Harris.

2nd: Jeremy Gabryszwski, Daniel Norris, Chase de Jong, Clinton Hollon, Sean Reid-Foley.

3rd: John Stilson, Anthony Alford, Patrick Murphy, Nick Wells, Justin Maese.

Some of those players became useful trade bait, but Stroman's the only one out of 22 picks that has had sustained major league success. Musgrove looks decent now, though it took years; he was moved in the first win-now Happ trade, which failed to win-then.


Jury is still out on the current regime, and as is typical there are some bad picks in there (Zeuch doesn't look great, Warmoth has been awful), but Pearson, Bichette and Groshans is quite a trio from four drafts, and there's a fair bit of other talent that requires further evaluation.

[Black Watch]

Jury is still out on the current regime, and as is typical there are some bad picks in there (Zeuch doesn't look great, Warmoth has been awful), but Pearson, Bichette and Groshans is quite a trio from four drafts, and there's a fair bit of other talent that requires further evaluation.

Ben Cherington.

[WuTang_OG]

I think Shatkins never valued Stroman and saw him more as a 3-5 rotation guy and decided he wasnt in their plans moving forward.

Still, the return looks like crap

[WuTang_OG]

I disagree there. Our drafting under AA, outside of 2010 when he gamed the system, wasn't actually all that good.

Perhaps he'd have had the latitude to rebuild earlier, which would have helped, but I doubt it; our ownership wanted the revenue. From 2011 to 2015, our (signed) 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders:

1st/supp rounders: Kevin Comer, Dwight Smith Jr, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Anderson, Tyler Gonzales, Mitch Nay, Matt Smoral, Marcus Stroman, DJ Davis, Max Pentecost, Jeff Hoffman, Jon Harris.

2nd: Jeremy Gabryszwski, Daniel Norris, Chase de Jong, Clinton Hollon, Sean Reid-Foley.

3rd: John Stilson, Anthony Alford, Patrick Murphy, Nick Wells, Justin Maese.

Some of those players became useful trade bait, but Stroman's the only one out of 22 picks that has had sustained major league success. Musgrove looks decent now, though it took years; he was moved in the first win-now Happ trade, which failed to win-then.


Jury is still out on the current regime, and as is typical there are some bad picks in there (Zeuch doesn't look great, Warmoth has been awful), but Pearson, Bichette and Groshans is quite a trio from four drafts, and there's a fair bit of other talent that requires further evaluation.

man wtf happend to DJ Davis? Everyone had high hopes on that selection.

[vaff87]

I disagree there. Our drafting under AA, outside of 2010 when he gamed the system, wasn't actually all that good.

Perhaps he'd have had the latitude to rebuild earlier, which would have helped, but I doubt it; our ownership wanted the revenue. From 2011 to 2015, our (signed) 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders:

1st/supp rounders: Kevin Comer, Dwight Smith Jr, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Anderson, Tyler Gonzales, Mitch Nay, Matt Smoral, Marcus Stroman, DJ Davis, Max Pentecost, Jeff Hoffman, Jon Harris.

2nd: Jeremy Gabryszwski, Daniel Norris, Chase de Jong, Clinton Hollon, Sean Reid-Foley.

3rd: John Stilson, Anthony Alford, Patrick Murphy, Nick Wells, Justin Maese.

Some of those players became useful trade bait, but Stroman's the only one out of 22 picks that has had sustained major league success. Musgrove looks decent now, though it took years; he was moved in the first win-now Happ trade, which failed to win-then.


Jury is still out on the current regime, and as is typical there are some bad picks in there (Zeuch doesn't look great, Warmoth has been awful), but Pearson, Bichette and Groshans is quite a trio from four drafts, and there's a fair bit of other talent that requires further evaluation.

man wtf happend to DJ Davis? Everyone had high hopes on that selection.

He couldn’t hit whatsoever.

[Kurtz]

And Morales and Gurriel share an agent and it was widely whispered that they were a package deal at the time and that Morales was simply a part of the price for getting Gurriel.

I remember those whispers, and they never really made any sense. Sacrificing the earning potential of one of your clients to get another of your clients more money seems like a thing that would get an agent sued and black-balled from the game - unless Gurriel was a party to it, and I can't imagine why he would be.

Besides, we did give him $21 mil guaranteed, which is looking like a bargain now, but seemed rather generous at the time.

[ratul]

Building the best team in baseball, the first Blue Jays playoff team in 22 years, and then being fired by your notriously cheap owner so they can hire a "company man" president will turn you into a cult-like figure.

That's not exactly what happened, though. Best team in baseball? They won 93 games once and 89 games the next season and they weren't the best team in the playoffs in either season. There might have been a brief period of time where that was true but it was incredibly brief were that the case.

Had AA stuck around, he'd have been stuck with the mess he created, too. There wasn't some easy way to flip things around and keep winning with the oldest team in baseball. There wasn't some magic potion that was going to solve the problems the team was facing. AA absolutely gutted the farm system to build that team, too, and for some reason AA is operating differently in Atlanta and was unwilling to throw a bunch of prospects to the Jays for their aging veterans he apparently believes in so much despite inheriting a competitive team over there.

Lol, this is hocum. The Jays had Vladdy because of Alex. That's a BEAST farm when only 20% of the players make it to the show. Double A is a winner

Double A's division rankings the last five years
2019: First
2018: First
2017: First
2016: Second
2015: First

By contrast, Shapiro
2019: Fourth
2018: Fourth
2017: Fourth
2016: Don't count the Jays here because it wasn't his team, but you can count the second if you want
2015:Third

[Sanyo]

Shitkins needs to go in the offseason, they have worn out their welcome here. I get rebuilds are hard but they took too long to start one and botched too many things here. Time to go!

[Schad]

Heh, I love that the 2016 Jays aren't Shapiro's team, but the 2017 Dodgers and 2018 Braves are AA's.

And no, the remainder of AA's system was not BEAST. If we had just his remaining prospects -- and all still counted as prospects -- the top ten in our system would look like:

Vlad, Jansen, Borucki, Reid-Foley, Alford, Murphy, Diaz, Vicuna, McClelland, Davy Jimenez.

Using Fangraphs' prospect valuation tool and ratings for those players, that system would be worth about $154m...$112m worth of that is Vlad. That would be one of the worst farm systems in baseball despite the best prospect in the league.

By contrast, the young players drafted and acquired by the current regime are worth about $190m, and that doesn't include Gurriel, or Thornton, or Biggio. So despite the presence of Vlad, Shapiro/Atkins have made a more meaningful contribution to our cache of young talent than AAAAAAAAAAA.

[vaff87]

AA stans remind me of Vince stans.

[Kurtz]

AA stans remind me of Vince stans.

In that they appreciate the amazing experiences that these two men brought to our City instead of blaming all the world's evils on them?

[vaff87]

AA stans remind me of Vince stans.

In that they appreciate the amazing experiences that these two men brought to our City instead of blaming all the world's evils on them?

No.. not that. At all.

[Kurtz]

AA stans remind me of Vince stans.

In that they appreciate the amazing experiences that these two men brought to our City instead of blaming all the world's evils on them?

No.. not that. At all.

Oh ok. Well that's why I like them both - up until this year, the two were responsible for the greatest moments Toronto sports fans have experienced for the past 20 years (unless you're a big MLS/CFL fan).

[vaff87]

In that they appreciate the amazing experiences that these two men brought to our City instead of blaming all the world's evils on them?

No.. not that. At all.

Oh ok. Well that's why I like them both - up until this year, the two were responsible for the greatest moments Toronto sports fans have experienced for the past 20 years (unless you're a big MLS/CFL fan).

They’re both fine, but overrated. Their fanboys conveniently forget the negatives with them.

Masai, Kawhi and Lowry are actual champions. Kawhi blew away anything Vince did in his one year in Toronto. Lowry has had much more success than Vince ever had, and now he’s a champion.

[Kurtz]

No.. not that. At all.

Oh ok. Well that's why I like them both - up until this year, the two were responsible for the greatest moments Toronto sports fans have experienced for the past 20 years (unless you're a big MLS/CFL fan).

They’re both fine, but overrated. Their fanboys conveniently forget the negatives with them.

Masai, Kawhi and Lowry are actual champions. Kawhi blew away anything Vince did in his one year in Toronto. Lowry has had much more success than Vince ever had, and now he’s a champion.

Ok, but why seek to diminish one man to aggrandize another? Kawhi and Vince both did very great, if different things for Toronto.

Vince's shot against Philly rims out, and Kawhi's rims in. Reverse the two coin-flip outcomes, and perhaps today VC is seen as our hero and champion, and Kawhi the villain that left us after a 2nd-round defeat.

Plus let's not forget that if not for Vince, there's a non-zero chance that Raptors go the way of the Grizzlies ages ago.

[WuTang_OG]

Bo Bichette is super talented. One of the few things Shatkins did right.