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Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson

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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#361 » by Adrian_05 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:30 pm

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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#362 » by Skin Blues » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:04 pm

The Indians traded Bauer essentially for Trammell, who is ranked #30, and apparently set to drop after a mediocre year at AA. Not a huge difference there compared to SWR and Kay who are probably borderline top 100. Then Trammell effectively swapped for Logan Allen and Franmil. Allen is arguably comparable to each of the guys we got (wouldn't be surprised if Shatkins prefers SWR over him) and Franmil is a big-bodied DH with slightly above average bat, essentially. The HR are nice but these days weak hitting middle infielders are popping 30 HR and that doesn't bring the same value it once did. As for Puig, he's an exciting player, but more than a little over-rated. Projected for similar ROS value as Smoak at twice the cost.

For the Indians, it's great since their OF and DH are so weak it makes for a huge upgrade. But in terms of value it's not a whole lot different, especially when you consider Bauer is the better pitcher, even if that's slightly mitigated due to his higher salary.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#363 » by Marmoset » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:34 pm

At first glance I'm slightly disappointed with the return for Stroman but I don't claim to know a lot about any but the most elite prospects in MLB (outside Toronto). After doing some reading, SWR seems exactly like the type of prospect that I feel the Jays have not been chasing in other deals, but should be. Kay also seems to have some potential, but not elite potential.

I think that a lot of people get far too hung up on the top prospect lists. For one thing, at least from keeping up with the Jays' list, the top prospect lists often seem to place mediocre talent that is closer to being 'ready' ahead of more talented prospects who are farther away. Recent times have been somewhat of an exception because we've had a few true elite talents like Guerrero and Bo.

If you compare that to MLB or NHL, for example, their prospect evaluations place much more emphasis on the raw talent and potential of the player. I know of the big differences between the development systems and timelines, but I still would rather have the player with elite potential but a lower probability of making it in any sport, because it's the elite players that end up making the difference. (This is within reason - 0.01% chance is not really a chance for the purpose of this post).

It's why I like the Raptors drafting OG Anunoby, it's why I like the Leafs drafting Timothy Liljegren, and it's why I like the acquisition of SWR. All guys with some potential to be elite, at the point you acquired them. They very well may not get there. Obviously not every guy you get is going to fit this, but I think a good number of your young players/prospects should fit that mold. Conversely, the almost universally hated Happ trade is the complete opposite of this.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#364 » by ratul » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:34 pm

Well, Bauer leads to Puig. Another miss by Shatkins in terms of value for Stroman. Suprise surprise
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#365 » by Hoopstarr » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:56 pm

Black Watch wrote:
Schad wrote:Jury is still out on the current regime, and as is typical there are some bad picks in there (Zeuch doesn't look great, Warmoth has been awful), but Pearson, Bichette and Groshans is quite a trio from four drafts, and there's a fair bit of other talent that requires further evaluation.

Ben Cherington.


Cherington and LaCava always get lost in the "Shatkins" fold. We really have an elite braintrust.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#366 » by dagger » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:58 pm

ratul wrote:Well, Bauer leads to Puig. Another miss by Shatkins in terms of value for Stroman. Suprise surprise


Stroman wouldn't have gotten that package, and frankly, Puig is a head case who at 28 and just one year in Cincinnati is headed to another team. His current slash line is .252/.302/.452/.777, which isn't extraordinary for a player earning $10m, with one more season of control before hitting free agency at age 30. He in no way aligns with the timeline of our young roster. He can get you 25-30 homers per season, but home runs seem to be one area where the Jays are doing rather well - if you're even bothering to watch their games.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#367 » by LBJSeizedMyID » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:05 pm

Man one of you is AA fanboy.

The Jays are rebuilding. They don't need an outfielder that can help them win games. They need prospects, and they need pitching. Was the return underwhelming? Perhaps. But even if they got this return, my assumption is we'd be hearing the same argument from a couple of you who thinks we should've traded Stroman for Andujar or Clint Frazier instead.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#368 » by Skin Blues » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:26 pm

dagger wrote:
ratul wrote:Well, Bauer leads to Puig. Another miss by Shatkins in terms of value for Stroman. Suprise surprise


Stroman wouldn't have gotten that package, and frankly, Puig is a head case who at 28 and just one year in Cincinnati is headed to another team. His current slash line is .252/.302/.452/.777, which isn't extraordinary for a player earning $10m, with one more season of control before hitting free agency at age 30. He in no way aligns with the timeline of our young roster. He can get you 25-30 homers per season, but home runs seem to be one area where the Jays are doing rather well - if you're even bothering to watch their games.

Puig is in his walk year, he's not under control for 2020. The Reds don't need him and couldn't have got much for him alone so he was included as a sweetener that Cleveland can afford after getting Bauer off the books.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#369 » by LLJ » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:52 pm

vaff87 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
vaff87 wrote:
I find the logic that Vince put the Raptors “on the map” complete nonsense, tbh.

And c’mon, Kawhi is a much better player than Vince ever was. The hypothetical of if you reverse the outcomes is silly. One guy was a 2x champion, 2x finals MVP, 2x dpoy before he turned 28. The other has been in the league 20+ years and has nowhere near those accomplishments; hasn’t even reached the finals, let alone won them. Kawhi will be one of the greatest players of all time, Vince is nowhere close to that.


Vince did put Toronto and the Raptors on the map. They made the playoffs for the first time and were suddenly playing on national telecasts. The TV ratings in Canada were non existent before Vince, half the games weren’t even televised, and they skyrocketed after he arrived.

But Vince wasn’t even close to the player Kawhi is on either side of the ball, that isn’t even worthy of a debate. Kawhi is arguably the best player in the league right now while Vince was probably never one of the top 10 NBA players in any single season of his career.


I just don’t consider that “putting them on the map”, tbh. It doesn’t have the same significance to me that it seems to with other people. I don’t buy the idea that the Raptors would have moved if it wasn’t for him.


I think the first "franchise" player that gets us to the playoffs for the first time will always be mythologized, so if not Vince it would be someone else, I agree.

Still, Vince was a showstopper highlight reel guy which helped his starpower. For me Vince is like Dominique was to the Hawks. An attention getter and highlight reel guy that gets the team some attention, but Kawhi was like Moses was to the Sixers, the final piece to a team that always came up short for years.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#370 » by gundysmullet » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:12 pm

The more I read about how this went down the more pissed I become. I’m reading now that the Yankees may go all in to get a top-of-the-line starting pitcher and for whatever reason Shatkins operated out of fear and pulled the trigger four days before the deadline instead of waiting until the last minute and allowing the competition to outbid each other. They are just not very good at trading and maximizing their return. Very frustrating.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#371 » by T-d0t » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:22 pm

gundysmullet wrote:The more I read about how this went down the more pissed I become. I’m reading now that the Yankees may go all in to get a top-of-the-line starting pitcher and for whatever reason Shatkins operated out of fear and pulled the trigger four days before the deadline instead of waiting until the last minute and allowing the competition to outbid each other. They are just not very good at trading and maximizing their return. Very frustrating.
Maybe just really coveted SWR from the Mets
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#372 » by agkagk » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:37 pm

Skin Blues wrote:The Indians traded Bauer essentially for Trammell, who is ranked #30, and apparently set to drop after a mediocre year at AA. Not a huge difference there compared to SWR and Kay who are probably borderline top 100. Then Trammell effectively swapped for Logan Allen and Franmil. Allen is arguably comparable to each of the guys we got (wouldn't be surprised if Shatkins prefers SWR over him) and Franmil is a big-bodied DH with slightly above average bat, essentially. The HR are nice but these days weak hitting middle infielders are popping 30 HR and that doesn't bring the same value it once did. As for Puig, he's an exciting player, but more than a little over-rated. Projected for similar ROS value as Smoak at twice the cost.

For the Indians, it's great since their OF and DH are so weak it makes for a huge upgrade. But in terms of value it's not a whole lot different, especially when you consider Bauer is the better pitcher, even if that's slightly mitigated due to his higher salary.


Comparing what the jays got for Stroman vs what the padres paid for Trammell— hurts my head.

In a vacuum it’s close.

Heck Texas traded a Ufa reliever no one has ever heard of for a young pitcher with similar value to Kay.

Like I said in another thread— if you make the Donaldson trade fifteen times over; on volume, you will eventually luck into a Corey kluber and look brilliant.

Life long fan, haven’t watched an inning in over two years. Smh
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#373 » by guvernator » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:01 pm

Stroman calling Shatkins racist... And people wonder why Atkins didn't want this loudmouth around the young guys.


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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#374 » by Wo1verine » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:04 pm

I liked Stroman but now i am glad he's gone guys a moron.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#375 » by Raptors Realtor » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:38 pm

dagger wrote:
ratul wrote:Well, Bauer leads to Puig. Another miss by Shatkins in terms of value for Stroman. Suprise surprise


Stroman wouldn't have gotten that package, and frankly, Puig is a head case who at 28 and just one year in Cincinnati is headed to another team. His current slash line is .252/.302/.452/.777, which isn't extraordinary for a player earning $10m, with one more season of control before hitting free agency at age 30. He in no way aligns with the timeline of our young roster. He can get you 25-30 homers per season, but home runs seem to be one area where the Jays are doing rather well - if you're even bothering to watch their games.


Ratul has no grasp of the mlb landscape for player values, contracts, etc... let alone the Jays current objective in terms of building a young team thru a farm system.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#376 » by Hoopstarr » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:01 pm

guvernator wrote:Stroman calling Shatkins racist... And people wonder why Atkins didn't want this loudmouth around the young guys.


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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#377 » by ratul » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:46 pm

Raptors Realtor wrote:
dagger wrote:
ratul wrote:Well, Bauer leads to Puig. Another miss by Shatkins in terms of value for Stroman. Suprise surprise


Stroman wouldn't have gotten that package, and frankly, Puig is a head case who at 28 and just one year in Cincinnati is headed to another team. His current slash line is .252/.302/.452/.777, which isn't extraordinary for a player earning $10m, with one more season of control before hitting free agency at age 30. He in no way aligns with the timeline of our young roster. He can get you 25-30 homers per season, but home runs seem to be one area where the Jays are doing rather well - if you're even bothering to watch their games.


Ratul has no grasp of the mlb landscape for player values, contracts, etc... let alone the Jays current objective in terms of building a young team thru a farm system.



You’re right. I am too busy watching this front office crash and burn. I guess you should be the gm big guy.
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#378 » by Sanyo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:47 pm

bballsparkin wrote:
vaff87 wrote:I just don’t consider that “putting them on the map”, tbh. It doesn’t have the same significance to me that it seems to with other people. I don’t buy the idea that the Raptors would have moved if it wasn’t for him.


I think Vince put the Raptors on the map. He was incredibly flashy and fun to watch. The idea that the Raptors would have moved is silly. Toronto has like three times the population as Vancouver. And I can say the Grizzlies were bad. Like really bad. I was a day one fan and thought Shareef was better than Vince. As an adult I stand corrected. IIRC the Grizz won max 23 games. Stu wrecked it for Vancouver. They never got the corporate money to support a loser. The Raptors were never leaving.


Yep and Seattle was only 2 hours away.

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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#379 » by Raptors Realtor » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:54 pm

ratul wrote:
Raptors Realtor wrote:
dagger wrote:
Stroman wouldn't have gotten that package, and frankly, Puig is a head case who at 28 and just one year in Cincinnati is headed to another team. His current slash line is .252/.302/.452/.777, which isn't extraordinary for a player earning $10m, with one more season of control before hitting free agency at age 30. He in no way aligns with the timeline of our young roster. He can get you 25-30 homers per season, but home runs seem to be one area where the Jays are doing rather well - if you're even bothering to watch their games.


Ratul has no grasp of the mlb landscape for player values, contracts, etc... let alone the Jays current objective in terms of building a young team thru a farm system.



You’re right. I am too busy watching this front office crash and burn. I guess you should be the gm big guy.


Trust me, I'm not a fan of the moves they've made this season or lack of moves they've made in the past with the likes of Donaldson and other veteran assets, and wouldn't be upset to see them replaced after this season. However, you criticize everything with reckless abandonment based on what you read on twitter. For instance, you were mad Cleveland got Puig & we didn't... What are we going to do with Puig, he doesn't fit this team whatsoever?
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Re: Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson 

Post#380 » by ratul » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:32 pm

Raptors Realtor wrote:
ratul wrote:
Raptors Realtor wrote:
Ratul has no grasp of the mlb landscape for player values, contracts, etc... let alone the Jays current objective in terms of building a young team thru a farm system.



You’re right. I am too busy watching this front office crash and burn. I guess you should be the gm big guy.


Trust me, I'm not a fan of the moves they've made this season or lack of moves they've made in the past with the likes of Donaldson and other veteran assets, and wouldn't be upset to see them replaced after this season. However, you criticize everything with reckless abandonment based on what you read on twitter. For instance, you were mad Cleveland got Puig & we didn't... What are we going to do with Puig, he doesn't fit this team whatsoever?


Do I hate everything this front office? No but I hate whatever they do enough to believe they should be fired.

I didn't say we should go for Puig but rather we got a trash return for stroman and Hernandez and Joe even though we need pitching.

My point is very little of this what this front office does is cogent - in fact, it's pretty much substandard across the board. The latest trades being another example

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