Jays acquire Jose Berrios from Twins for Austin Martin, Simeon Woods-Richardson

[Parataxis]

I can't help but feeling that if we were going to give up two of our top five prospects, we should have gone all in and made Baltimore a godfatheresque offer for Means.

Impossible, I know, but man, to dream.

[C Court]

Keith Law’s take on Martin and SWR and how their game has slid a bit makes me feel better about the trade. If the Jays are legitimately unsure as to whether either will become legit major leaguers, then probably best to move them now.

I can't believe that Keith Law of all people is now a salve to our wounds, but you're right.

Also, that son of a bitch may be proven right about Biggio after all. ****.

That’s exactly what I thought - it’s Keith (I hate the Jays) Law.

[vaff87]

Keith Law’s take on Martin and SWR and how their game has slid a bit makes me feel better about the trade. If the Jays are legitimately unsure as to whether either will become legit major leaguers, then probably best to move them now.

I can't believe that Keith Law of all people is now a salve to our wounds, but you're right.

Also, that son of a bitch may be proven right about Biggio after all. ****.

That’s exactly what I thought - it’s Keith (I hate the Jays) Law.

Keith Law has also always been really high on Martin.

[vaff87]

I can't help but feeling that if we were going to give up two of our top five prospects, we should have gone all in and made Baltimore a godfatheresque offer for Means.

Impossible, I know, but man, to dream.

I don’t think many people had SWR as one of our top five prospects at this point. I certainly didn’t. BA had seven Jays in the top 100 of their latest rankings, and he wasn’t one of them.

[North_of_Border]

Martin and SWR had shine as prospects, but you gotta understand that not all shine players are eventually gonna be what they are expected to be. While players with less shine, as times will end up better. AS fans were are all about the shine. But I would trust the professionals to make the evaluations. If they think these guys were losing the shine. Then no problem.

Plus the whole point of building a solid young core, is about winning while they are cheap. Vald, Bo, Biggio, Teoscar, Gurriel, Manoah, Pearson etc..etc.. etc.. will not be cheap for ever. and one by ne will be separated from the team. The Jays cant afford to pay them all 100+ contracts. So you gotta maximize your window. If it eventually falls flat and you gotta start again, well atleast you really succeeded while the window was open.

Plus, theres not enough roster spots for ALL the good prospects in the system. Eventually many will be moved, most will fail to reach potential, and only some will successfully join the team, and actually succeed. Dont be a prospect hogger.

[polo007]

Watch on YouTube

Jose Berrios Reacts to Being Traded to Toronto Blue Jays and Reflects on Minnesota Twins Career

July 30, 2021

Baseball on Fanatics View

Watch as Jose Berrios Reacts to Being Traded to Toronto Blue Jays and Reflects on Minnesota Twins Career

Watch on YouTube

Ross Atkins Details Toronto Blue Jays Trade for Jose Berrios and Blue Jays Trade Deadline Discussions

July 30, 2021

Baseball on Fanatics View

Watch as Ross Atkins Details Toronto Blue Jays Trade for Jose Berrios & Blue Jays Trade Deadline Discussions

[Ado05]

Gotta imagine this means they are all in on 2022, which is pretty exciting. They have money to spend and a great FA class is coming up.

[Schad]

It's exciting, but it also has an insanely high degree of difficulty. MLB is not a go-for-broke-in-one-year sort of league. The vast majority of the time, it just ends badly. And when it ends badly, you have a lower chance to go for it in the remaining three years of our window.

[Ado05]

It's exciting, but it also has an insanely high degree of difficulty. MLB is not a go-for-broke-in-one-year sort of league. The vast majority of the time, it just ends badly. And when it ends badly, you have a lower chance to go for it in the remaining three years of our window.

Not necessarily disagreeing, but they made their choice with this trade today.

[Ong_dynasty]

I think this year they still have a chance and same as next. we still have a decent farm system. maybe we do keep semien at a decent salary and we could be good. I also think it is important for the team and the young guys especially to really be in the race even if they fall short this year.

[Skin Blues]

It's exciting, but it also has an insanely high degree of difficulty. MLB is not a go-for-broke-in-one-year sort of league. The vast majority of the time, it just ends badly. And when it ends badly, you have a lower chance to go for it in the remaining three years of our window.

We're not going for broke in one year, we're set up to compete for at least the next 3-4. We have an extremely strong core of hitters already, with most long-term and some high upside guys ready to make the jump soon. We have a good core of pitchers with Manoah and Ryu for the next few years, Berrios for this year and next, a wildcard with Pearson, and a lot of money to spend. Nothing about this indicates going for broke in 2022.

[C Court]

What makes me feel better the day after is that SWR is trending in the wrong direction, while Martin has plateaued - at least for now.

[bluerap23]

This trade is a direct result of the reclamation product starting rotation we featured from the season's beginning. The unwillingness to sign a SP like Taijuan Walker caused the need for this deal.

One can theorize that they might have still made this trade anyway even had they had Walker to bolster the SP rotation even more but I doubt it because we may not have been as desperate as we clearly were now.

I am a Walker fan. Berrios is better, but I'd rather have Walker and the prospect capital than Berrios. I am not convinced that they will extend Berrios either and that will really sting. It seemed pretty clear to me that they ran out of money at the end of the off-season and that is on management.

This trade is also about next off-season when they will likely be outbid for Ray. Pearson's lack of development also factors here. They probably projected him to be a #2 by now.

[bluerap23]

What makes me feel better the day after is that SWR is trending in the wrong direction, while Martin has plateaued - at least for now.

A prospect has plateaued after half a season in minor league baseball?
That is ridiculous.

[PowerPlant1]

This trade is a direct result of the reclamation product starting rotation we featured from the season's beginning. The unwillingness to sign a SP like Taijuan Walker caused the need for this deal.

One can theorize that they might have still made this trade anyway even had they had Walker to bolster the SP rotation even more but I doubt it because we may not have been as desperate as we clearly were now.

People keep mentioning Walker, but fail to mention any of the other 2 dozen starting pitchers that Jays fans on this forum wanted to bring in, and they’re all struggled with command or injuries. So you’re basically asking why the Jays didn’t thread the needle in the off season because he’s literally one of the only few agent SP’s who isn’t shitin’ the bed. So getting someone who is actually effective and much better than Walker at the deadline was likely always the plan.

Anyways, the SP hasn’t been the problem the past 2 months, just the bullpen. Even stripling has been quite good. I just hope they don’t screw this up and just send Matz to the pen instead of Stripling. He gives us an extra effective arm down there too.

So from the get go, I have heard your argument about Walker not being the only free agent the Jays could have targeted. That is not a completely sound argument for more than one reason.

One, Walker, being on the Jays, was at least more likely than average to be targeted by the Jays relative to other FA starters. Walker himself was open to coming back. Also, the Jays had access to him, knew what he brought and possibly what to expect from him. Meaning they were more likely to bring him back relative to someone else had the desire been there to address the pitching problems through FA. I am not saying 100% but just more likely.

2, some of the FA starters are doing well. Bauer and Kluber are two such names. Hill is also doing decently. I grant you that many are not but at least those three are. It would not have been impossible through another name to avoid this trade had good judgement been exercised.

3, if the Jays got a pitcher through FA and he bombed and then needed Berrios, I wouldn't have been as perturbed. In this case, they didn't even try to fill the pitching hole earlier and instead relied on reclamation projects. They truly believed that the SP lineup wasn't bad enough because of their good offense to win. And because of that belief, here we are. Hopefully Martin and SWR don't turn out that good but I have a feeling Martin at least will.

4) Berrios may also not work out just like a FA pitcher. For some reason, you neglect to mention this. There is always a risk bringing someone in. My argument was to use money to bring someone in not top prospects.


And just one more thing, I agree that the BP is worse than the SP and has accounted for the Jays losses more than the starters. Really, any pitching would look better next to the BP. But starting pitching was still a deficit on this team due to the plan you speak of, which I argue, is a terrible plan.

[LBJSeizedMyID]

One would think one of the two and someone other than the other could've gotten it done. Still trust this front office, but man this one stings, especially for a pitcher who hasn't shown to be a true ace. Perhaps Pete Walker can elevate him to the next level. Also have to think this trade was made out of necessity to make Toronto a more desirable destination for potential FA for next year.

[The_Hater]

This trade is a direct result of the reclamation product starting rotation we featured from the season's beginning. The unwillingness to sign a SP like Taijuan Walker caused the need for this deal.

One can theorize that they might have still made this trade anyway even had they had Walker to bolster the SP rotation even more but I doubt it because we may not have been as desperate as we clearly were now.

People keep mentioning Walker, but fail to mention any of the other 2 dozen starting pitchers that Jays fans on this forum wanted to bring in, and they’re all struggled with command or injuries. So you’re basically asking why the Jays didn’t thread the needle in the off season because he’s literally one of the only few agent SP’s who isn’t shitin’ the bed. So getting someone who is actually effective and much better than Walker at the deadline was likely always the plan.

Anyways, the SP hasn’t been the problem the past 2 months, just the bullpen. Even stripling has been quite good. I just hope they don’t screw this up and just send Matz to the pen instead of Stripling. He gives us an extra effective arm down there too.

So from the get go, I have heard your argument about Walker not being the only free agent the Jays could have targeted. That is not a completely sound argument for more than one reason.

One, Walker, being on the Jays, was at least more likely than average to be targeted by the Jays relative to other FA starters. Walker himself was open to coming back. Also, the Jays had access to him, knew what he brought and possibly what to expect from him. Meaning they were more likely to bring him back relative to someone else had the desire been there to address the pitching problems through FA. I am not saying 100% but just more likely.

2, some of the FA starters are doing well. Bauer and Kluber are two such names. Hill is also doing decently. I grant you that many are not but at least those three are. It would not have been impossible through another name to avoid this trade had good judgement been exercised.

3, if the Jays got a pitcher through FA and he bombed and then needed Berrios, I wouldn't have been as perturbed. In this case, they didn't even try to fill the pitching hole earlier and instead relied on reclamation projects. They truly believed that the SP lineup wasn't bad enough because of their good offense to win. And because of that belief, here we are. Hopefully Martin and SWR don't turn out that good but I have a feeling Martin at least will.

4) Berrios may also not work out just like a FA pitcher. For some reason, you neglect to mention this. There is always a risk bringing someone in. My argument was to use money to bring someone in not top prospects.


And just one more thing, I agree that the BP is worse than the SP and has accounted for the Jays losses more than the starters. Really, any pitching would look better next to the BP. But starting pitching was still a deficit on this team due to the plan you speak of, which I argue, is a terrible plan.

Bauer and Kluber? One an overpaid d-bag who’s season just ended in July and the other made 10 mostly solid starts before being put on the 60 day DL. I’m not sure those are good hindsight examples of signings we should have made.

And of course Berrios might not work out, why is it up to me to mention that nothing is 100%? But I will look at things like age, health, salary and track record to conclude that he’s a better bet then anyone we could have signed this past off-season. I’m more worried that our 2 prospects work out really well for the Twins.

[C Court]

What makes me feel better the day after is that SWR is trending in the wrong direction, while Martin has plateaued - at least for now.

A prospect has plateaued after half a season in minor league baseball?
That is ridiculous.

You struggle reading full sentences and stopped before I said “at least for now”.

And yes, Martin at this point has plateaued and his prospect rankings have dropped.

[SharoneWright]

What makes me feel better the day after is that SWR is trending in the wrong direction, while Martin has plateaued - at least for now.

All granted. So, let's not assume either will become superstars. We're still going to need good pieces under years of cheap control to trot out beside our billion dollar roster. Guys who can contribute to us for cheap (or who could actually bloom into something special) become super-valuable in trades (the Whit Merrifield contract was brought up on TV yesterday) or could even allow us to move off some of the higher-salary-guys as a contingency. We have not only really locked into 2021 and 2022, but we have also given ourselves fewer outs in the years beyond. Unless we just intend to spend like the Dodgers.

[C Court]

I still don’t love the deal, but I can understand the rationale behind it.