Don Mattingly Hired as Bench Coach

[WuTang_OG]

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Good move. We needed experience. This will help balance the analytics approach imo

[Fairview4Life]

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Good move. We needed experience. This will help balance the analytics approach imo

If we had actually used an analytics approach, we wouldn't have been bounced so quickly by Seattle. There weren't any analytics that could justify some of Schneider's tactical in game decisions. Especially the relievers he brought in and when he brought them in.

[WuTang_OG]

Read on Twitter

Good move. We needed experience. This will help balance the analytics approach imo

If we had actually used an analytics approach, we wouldn't have been bounced so quickly by Seattle. There weren't any analytics that could justify some of Schneider's tactical in game decisions. Especially the relievers he brought in and when he brought them in.

We pulled our starter who was having a very solid game with 2 outs for an average reliever. That was an analytics move. It costed us the game.

You still need 'feel' in baseball and to balance that with analytics.

[Fairview4Life]

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Good move. We needed experience. This will help balance the analytics approach imo

If we had actually used an analytics approach, we wouldn't have been bounced so quickly by Seattle. There weren't any analytics that could justify some of Schneider's tactical in game decisions. Especially the relievers he brought in and when he brought them in.

We pulled our starter who was having a very solid game with 2 outs for an average reliever. That was an analytics move. It costed us the game.

You still need 'feel' in baseball and to balance that with analytics.

That was not an analytics move! We brought in, I believe, literally the worst relief option available analytically.

[WuTang_OG]

If we had actually used an analytics approach, we wouldn't have been bounced so quickly by Seattle. There weren't any analytics that could justify some of Schneider's tactical in game decisions. Especially the relievers he brought in and when he brought them in.

We pulled our starter who was having a very solid game with 2 outs for an average reliever. That was an analytics move. It costed us the game.

You still need 'feel' in baseball and to balance that with analytics.

That was not an analytics move! We brought in, I believe, literally the worst relief option available analytically.

Yes it was. We had a dominant starter throughout the game with 2 outs. The non analytics approach were to be the ride him for the last out. That's what's called over managing in that situation and using analytics by going to a lefty (I do agree he was average but that's not the point here).

[Fairview4Life]

It is my point! The worst analytic option was what Schneider chose to do. That wasn't a decision driven by analytics. If it was driven by the Blue Jays internal analytics team, then IBM Watson needs to be brought in to clean house.

[WuTang_OG]

It is my point! The worst analytic option was what Schneider chose to do. That wasn't a decision driven by analytics. If it was driven by the Blue Jays internal analytics team, then IBM Watson needs to be brought in to clean house.

You're not understanding lol. I just explained the non analytics approach was to leave Gausman in. He went with a lefty which was an analytics approach rather than feel of the game approach. If the guy sucks or not is moot point but he did go with a lefty which should give you some indication that it was analytically based.

[Fairview4Life]

It is my point! The worst analytic option was what Schneider chose to do. That wasn't a decision driven by analytics. If it was driven by the Blue Jays internal analytics team, then IBM Watson needs to be brought in to clean house.

You're not understanding lol. I just explained the non analytics approach was to leave Gausman in. He went with a lefty which was an analytics approach rather than feel of the game approach. If the guy sucks or not is moot point but he did go with a lefty which should give you some indication that it was analytically based.

It's absolutely not a moot point. Taking out a starter for a reliever early in the game isn't the end of the analytics discussion. In fact, what Schneider did was a worse decision, analytically. By a whole lot! If you were using analytics, you would have left Gausman in for at least another batter. "Putting in a lefty" due to perceived difficulty of left hand hitters hitting them, is something managers have been doing for like 50 years, if not more. But that is meaningless in this discussion since Carlos Santana is a **** switch hitter! He hits better against left handed pitching! And Mayza's splits were much worse against right handed hitters. So he brought in a lefty, which pushed Santana to his better side and the pitchers much worse split side. How in hell can that be considered an analytics decision? Using analytics would have shown you that the guy they brought in to face the guy they brought him in to face was an incredibly bad idea.

[s e n s i]

nah, i refuse to believe that that decision was based on analytics. i'm confident there are no analytics, neither available to us or to the team, to suggest that tim mayza, who gets completely lit up by righties, was the best possible option in that scenario. all analytics went out the window in that brief moment in time. going with mayza was the most "gut feeling" decision there was the entire season.

[WuTang_OG]

It is my point! The worst analytic option was what Schneider chose to do. That wasn't a decision driven by analytics. If it was driven by the Blue Jays internal analytics team, then IBM Watson needs to be brought in to clean house.

You're not understanding lol. I just explained the non analytics approach was to leave Gausman in. He went with a lefty which was an analytics approach rather than feel of the game approach. If the guy sucks or not is moot point but he did go with a lefty which should give you some indication that it was analytically based.

It's absolutely not a moot point. Taking out a starter for a reliever early in the game isn't the end of the analytics discussion. In fact, what Schneider did was a worse decision, analytically. By a whole lot! If you were using analytics, you would have left Gausman in for at least another batter. "Putting in a lefty" due to perceived difficulty of left hand hitters hitting them, is something managers have been doing for like 50 years, if not more. But that is meaningless in this discussion since Carlos Santana is a **** switch hitter! He hits better against left handed pitching! And Mayza's splits were much worse against right handed hitters. So he brought in a lefty, which pushed Santana to his better side and the pitchers much worse split side. How in hell can that be considered an analytics decision? Using analytics would have shown you that the guy they brought in to face the guy they brought him in to face was an incredibly bad idea.

The decision to pull your dominant starter early for a left reliver is analytics based - no matter how you try to spin it or not comprehend. Leaving in the starter would be more of a feel of the game decision (which has been my point throughout all of this). The analytics approach even though a poor one is what happend here.

[Fairview4Life]

If the analytics approach starts and ends with "remove starter early" then the Blue Jays have an enormous analytics problem and a whole lot of people need to be fired. it's fine to pull Gausman early. But bringing in Tim Mayza against Carlos Santana was not supported by any kind of analytics and was, in fact, a "feel for the game" decision made by John Schneider.

[WuTang_OG]

If the analytics approach starts and ends with "remove starter early" then the Blue Jays have an enormous analytics problem and a whole lot of people need to be fired. it's fine to pull Gausman early. But bringing in Tim Mayza against Carlos Santana was not supported by any kind of analytics and was, in fact, a "feel for the game" decision made by John Schneider.

Incorrect. The feel for the game decision was to leave Guausman in with 1 out left. Everyone knows that. And it's not "remove starter early" it's lets go to a lefty in this situation which was clearly a complete misfire by Schnieder.

[Fairview4Life]

If the analytics approach starts and ends with "remove starter early" then the Blue Jays have an enormous analytics problem and a whole lot of people need to be fired. it's fine to pull Gausman early. But bringing in Tim Mayza against Carlos Santana was not supported by any kind of analytics and was, in fact, a "feel for the game" decision made by John Schneider.

Incorrect. The feel for the game decision was to leave Guausman in with 1 out left. Everyone knows that. And it's not "remove starter early" it's lets go to a lefty in this situation which was clearly a complete misfire by Schnieder.

Let's go to a lefty against Carlos Santana was not an analytics decision. I have no idea how you could make that argument. What analytics?

Schneider explicitly said that they felt comfortable with Santana hitting from either side and he liked Mayza's ability to get ground balls. These "analytics" are completely dwarfed by the fact that Gausman also gets a lot of groundballs (and strikeouts), the Jays have significantly better ground ball inducing pitchers in their bullpen than Tim Mayza, and the splits of Mayza vs. Santana on the right side are terrible.

He didn't bring in Mayza because he was a lefty. He brought him in because he wanted a groundball to get out of the inning and he ignored a whole lot of "analytics" to pick Mayza if that's what he wanted to accomplish. He absolutely went with his gut and who he felt comfortable bringing in and it was enormously dumb and cost the Jays the game.

[WuTang_OG]

If the analytics approach starts and ends with "remove starter early" then the Blue Jays have an enormous analytics problem and a whole lot of people need to be fired. it's fine to pull Gausman early. But bringing in Tim Mayza against Carlos Santana was not supported by any kind of analytics and was, in fact, a "feel for the game" decision made by John Schneider.

Incorrect. The feel for the game decision was to leave Guausman in with 1 out left. Everyone knows that. And it's not "remove starter early" it's lets go to a lefty in this situation which was clearly a complete misfire by Schnieder.

Let's go to a lefty against Carlos Santana was not an analytics decision. I have no idea how you could make that argument. What analytics?

Schneider explicitly said that they felt comfortable with Santana hitting from either side and he liked Mayza's ability to get ground balls. These "analytics" are completely dwarfed by the fact that Gausman also gets a lot of groundballs (and strikeouts), the Jays have significantly better ground ball inducing pitchers in their bullpen than Tim Mayza, and the splits of Mayza vs. Santana on the right side are terrible.

He didn't bring in Mayza because he was a lefty. He brought him in because he wanted a groundball to get out of the inning and he ignored a whole lot of "analytics" to pick Mayza if that's what he wanted to accomplish. He absolutely went with his gut and who he felt comfortable bringing in and it was enormously dumb and cost the Jays the game.

Again, the feel for the game decision was to leave Guasman in. There was analytics to play in pulling him for Mayza whether big or small, it was there. No manager is pulling their dominant starter in that situation for feel. The feel was to leave him in, as we all know. It just never worked out for Schneider which is why the decision was terrible.

[Fairview4Life]

I don't think I can make it any simpler. It was, other than bringing in a position player to pitch, the literal worst decision analytically that Schneider could have made. This is a very simple point and ignoring it doesn't make you right.

[WuTang_OG]

I don't think I can make it any simpler. It was, other than bringing in a position player to pitch, the literal worst decision analytically that Schneider could have made. This is a very simple point and ignoring it doesn't make you right.

You just arent getting it though. Schneider's reasoning was also due to the fact that he didnt want Gausman to go through the lineup for the 3rd time - a major analytics theme for starting pitchers. You can continue to argue the decision but I will leave this here.

[Aimless Outlook]

Please provide even a shred of analytical data that shows replacing your starter with a terrible lefty reliever option in that scenario is statistically a better option than leaving in your cy young level starter.

A frazzled, panicking, brain freezing manager will make that stupid decision based on gut feel, and might even convince himself that statistics says to use a Lefty reliever here. But actually looking at analyzed data for the actual players and situation paints the completely opposite story.

If you honestly think that "Replace starter with lefty reliever" is proof for statistical analysis, I'll happily change your posts to hidden and save myself from bruising my face through facepalms...

[Mad Prophet]

What's sad is even at his age, he's probably our best lefty bat.

[WuTang_OG]

Schneider went away from feel in that decision plain and simple which was my point. If Mayza worked out, the analytics of the decision look better. Schenider trusted his ground out ability data (analytics based) on a switch hitter. Whether the decision was an intelligent anayltics based or not is not my argument, it's that he leaned that way over a gut decision to leave your dominant starter in. That's what happend.

[s e n s i]

Schneider went away from feel in that decision plain and simple which was my point. If Mayza worked out, the analytics of the decision look better.

no, he really didn't. that decision was based on feel and feel only.