Breaking: Varsho in, Moreno, Gurriel out

[PowerPlant1]

If he was hitting like that here, sure. But he never had in the past.

Never this good yes, but always averaging over .276 a season, in some cases .300 with 2 20 HR seasons can easily turn excellent. A yearly high average hitter is one that should always be valued. It means they do enough right to generate hits season after season and thus, above average could turn out like this.

His dwindling power #s last season made him dispensable to power addicts as this negatively impacts fWAR but too many likely saw that as the new norm or an indictment of inconsistency in power.

Also, Boogie's argument against defense again is an argument saying that defense should never ultimately be overvalued or equally valued to offense. Defense is less important than being a part of a team of hitters with good approaches to put more runs on the board game after game. You need runs first of all for lack of defense to even cost you the game and so often, bad pitching gets hit no matter the 'range' of fielders. The acquisition of Varsho risked adding an offensive liability for two possibly good hitters and it has hurt this team significantly.

I'm not sure why we're hung on on Gurriel lol.

Yeah, obviously Gurriel + Moreno would help us this year more than Varsho, but Gurriel will not be a Blue Jay or a D-Back next season so he's essentially irrelevant in the trade.

The real issue is the 23 year-old we traded that is currently outplaying Varsho (and both of our catchers).

Apparently for you, it is all about the future. Perhaps that is because the present is so messed up as it is partly because of this trade.

This is a current season issue as the Jays apparently sought to become better to compete now.

Gurriel could have also resigned with the Jays and geez, may resign with Arizona as he has turned it around there. It isn't 100% that he would have gone somewhere else. But likely with how this organization devalues a high average hitter, not much money would have been offered to him here. So point without rationale taken.

[Randle McMurphy]

[/b]

You aren't being objective with that statement and likely because Gurriel falls short of your 'ideal' player, you'd refuse to accept him as the better option even if he may be better than Belt.

Therefore, you just proved that what you don't want is bad for the team.

His offense is currently missed on this team.

Gurriel's fielding and baserunning is so horrendous that it has almost always canceled out any offensive value he has. There's also no reason to think he's gonna continue to have a 150 wRC+. He will surely fall back into being what he is in the next few months and that's a player I want absolutely nothing to do with.

Belt also now has a 118 wRC+ on the season (with a 191 wRC+), so it appears he is exactly the hitter the Jays thought he was when they acquired him. Even now, it would hardly be surprising if he ended up with a better offensive season than Gurriel and did so without absolutely destroying your outfield defense.

Hopefully some circles back to this statement in a few months.

Belt is at a 130 wRC+ and Gurriel is down to 122 wRC+. That didn’t take too long at all.

[polo007]

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[bluerap23]

Player A
.259 21 75 .750

Player B
.258 19 66 .767

Player C
.269 19 74 .782

Player D
.221 16 49 .668

Player E
.267 6 30 .739

[Mehar]

Player A
.259 21 75 .750

Player B
.258 19 66 .767

Player C
.269 19 74 .782

Player D
.221 16 49 .668

Player E
.267 6 30 .739

It would be much easier if you could put the names besides each player. Varsho is definitely Player D with that low average.

[bluerap23]

Player A
.259 21 75 .750

Player B
.258 19 66 .767

Player C
.269 19 74 .782

Player D
.221 16 49 .668

Player E
.267 6 30 .739

It would be much easier if you could put the names besides each player. Varsho is definitely Player D with that low average.

Player A - Teoscar
Player B - Lourdes
Player C - Vlad
Player D - Varsho
Player E - Kiermaier

[Mehar]

I did not think Teoscar would have more home runs and RBI's than Vlad right now. He has been tremendous the past 3-4 weeks for the Mariners. Good thing Seattle hung onto Teoscar, since they came close to dealing him at the deadline.

[SharoneWright]

I did not think Teoscar would have more home runs and RBI's than Vlad right now. He has been tremendous the past 3-4 weeks for the Mariners. Good thing Seattle hung onto Teoscar, since they came close to dealing him at the deadline.

I'm not intrinsically a huge Teo fan,, BUT was hoping we could acquire him/another bat at the deadline. We could have simultaneously improved ourselves while diminishing a primary threat to our wild card hopes by trading for him.

Instead, we sent assets to the Cards for DeJong,, (not that Svanson would have been enough for the Mariners obvs,,) but if we were buyers we could have chosen to send prospect capital for a bat rather than for a defensive stop-gap for 3 weeks... Is it possible management missed the forest for the trees?

[-MetA4-]

Instead, we sent assets to the Cards for DeJong,, (not that Svanson would have been enough for the Mariners obvs,,) but if we were buyers we could have chosen to send prospect capital for a bat rather than for a defensive stop-gap for 3 weeks... Is it possible management missed the forest for the trees?

My guy, no one on this roster can play SS day to day apart from Bo. Santiago Espinal can not play SS day after day, he can barely handle the position in spot starts. I'm mind blown that people still don't understand the point of the DeJong trade. Lets pretend Bichette was out for a month or more; who are you running out at SS every day?

[bluerap23]

Instead, we sent assets to the Cards for DeJong,, (not that Svanson would have been enough for the Mariners obvs,,) but if we were buyers we could have chosen to send prospect capital for a bat rather than for a defensive stop-gap for 3 weeks... Is it possible management missed the forest for the trees?

My guy, no one on this roster can play SS day to day apart from Bo. Santiago Espinal can not play SS day after day, he can barely handle the position in spot starts. I'm mind blown that people still don't understand the point of the DeJong trade. Lets pretend Bichette was out for a month or more; who are you running out at SS every day?

If that was the case, releasing him was exceptionally stupid.

[agkagk]

I did not think Teoscar would have more home runs and RBI's than Vlad right now. He has been tremendous the past 3-4 weeks for the Mariners. Good thing Seattle hung onto Teoscar, since they came close to dealing him at the deadline.

I'm not intrinsically a huge Teo fan,, BUT was hoping we could acquire him/another bat at the deadline. We could have simultaneously improved ourselves while diminishing a primary threat to our wild card hopes by trading for him.

Instead, we sent assets to the Cards for DeJong,, (not that Svanson would have been enough for the Mariners obvs,,) but if we were buyers we could have chosen to send prospect capital for a bat rather than for a defensive stop-gap for 3 weeks... Is it possible management missed the forest for the trees?

I think its clear they dont have the inter personal skills to negotiate trades with any kind of consistency.

Edit: im talking on the bigger louder scale. They dont seem to have the skills to pull off the big deal.

Their smaller scale stuff is hit or miss (thats normal). I suspect theyre above average when they play along the fringes.

I mean the merrifield trade alone more then makes up for the white trade with l.a blowing up so quickly and emphatically.

And tbh on paper the white trade looked like a no brainer to….. so goes to show what i know

[JN]

I did not think Teoscar would have more home runs and RBI's than Vlad right now. He has been tremendous the past 3-4 weeks for the Mariners. Good thing Seattle hung onto Teoscar, since they came close to dealing him at the deadline.

I'm not intrinsically a huge Teo fan,, BUT was hoping we could acquire him/another bat at the deadline. We could have simultaneously improved ourselves while diminishing a primary threat to our wild card hopes by trading for him.

Instead, we sent assets to the Cards for DeJong,, (not that Svanson would have been enough for the Mariners obvs,,) but if we were buyers we could have chosen to send prospect capital for a bat rather than for a defensive stop-gap for 3 weeks... Is it possible management missed the forest for the trees?

In my view, its incorrect to suggest the Jays chose to go after DeJong rather than Teoscar (or somebody else). We didn't really send any prospect capital for DeJong. It was not an either/or scenario. Svanson is a C or D level prospect, and Svanson would have been a minute part in a package for Teoscar. I'm sure the Jays were looking to do other stuff beyond DeJong including Teoscar.

If the Mariners in the end really wanted to trade Teoscar he would have ended up somewhere. The fact that he didn't meant the Mariners were waffling and settled on keeping him, or they wanted a whole lot for him that nobody was willing to offer up. (Mariners had FA arbitration as a good backup plan if they held on to him)

Its still disappointing that the Jays did not get a RH bat, and they deserve to be criticized for not getting it done. I'm sure they tried - perhaps they focused too much on Teoscar as the target and thought the Mariners would break, but in the end the Mariners holding on to him hung the Jays out to dry with all the other bats moved earlier that deadline day. That's not an excuse -- the Jays should have been able to sense that was happening and be able to veer in another direction.

[Randle McMurphy]

Gurriel's fielding and baserunning is so horrendous that it has almost always canceled out any offensive value he has. There's also no reason to think he's gonna continue to have a 150 wRC+. He will surely fall back into being what he is in the next few months and that's a player I want absolutely nothing to do with.

Belt also now has a 118 wRC+ on the season (with a 191 wRC+), so it appears he is exactly the hitter the Jays thought he was when they acquired him. Even now, it would hardly be surprising if he ended up with a better offensive season than Gurriel and did so without absolutely destroying your outfield defense.

Hopefully some circles back to this statement in a few months.

Belt is at a 130 wRC+ and Gurriel is down to 122 wRC+. That didn’t take too long at all.

On September 1, Belt has a 132 wRC+ and Gurriel is at 103 wRC+. That went exactly as expected (Gurriel is not good).

[Raps in 4]

Hopefully some circles back to this statement in a few months.

Belt is at a 130 wRC+ and Gurriel is down to 122 wRC+. That didn’t take too long at all.

On September 1, Belt has a 132 wRC+ and Gurriel is at 103 wRC+. That went exactly as expected (Gurriel is not good).

We all knew who Gurriel was (and that's a mediocre player with one year left on his contract). The risk was always trading our top prospect for Varsho. And after one season, it wasn't a great trade.

Varsho has been a disappointment in his first season with us (1.7 fWAR in 493 ABs, 82 wRC+).

Moreno, although unimpressive himself, had similar/better production (1.2 fWAR in in 296 ABs, 97 wRC+). He's also 3 years younger.

My argument coming into the season was that we could have gotten a better player than Varaho for our top prospect. I still maintain that, especially after Varsho regressed substantially from last season. There was always a risk that last season was an outlier season for him, and it looks like that may have been the case.

[Harry Palmer]

Belt is at a 130 wRC+ and Gurriel is down to 122 wRC+. That didn’t take too long at all.

On September 1, Belt has a 132 wRC+ and Gurriel is at 103 wRC+. That went exactly as expected (Gurriel is not good).

We all knew who Gurriel was (and that's a mediocre player with one year left on his contract). The risk was always trading our top prospect for Varsho. And after one season, it wasn't a great trade.

Varsho has been a disappointment in his first season with us (1.7 fWAR in 493 ABs, 82 wRC+).

Moreno, although unimpressive himself, had similar/better production (1.2 fWAR in in 296 ABs, 97 wRC+). He's also 3 years younger.

My argument coming into the season was that we could have gotten a better player than Varaho for our top prospect. I still maintain that, especially after Varsho regressed substantially from last season. There was always a risk that last season was an outlier season for him, and it looks like that may have been the case.

Not sure what the data shows but Moreno’s defense has received wide spread acclaim.

[Randle McMurphy]

Belt is at a 130 wRC+ and Gurriel is down to 122 wRC+. That didn’t take too long at all.

On September 1, Belt has a 132 wRC+ and Gurriel is at 103 wRC+. That went exactly as expected (Gurriel is not good).

We all knew who Gurriel was (and that's a mediocre player with one year left on his contract). The risk was always trading our top prospect for Varsho. And after one season, it wasn't a great trade.

Varsho has been a disappointment in his first season with us (1.7 fWAR in 493 ABs, 82 wRC+).

Moreno, although unimpressive himself, had similar/better production (1.2 fWAR in in 296 ABs, 97 wRC+). He's also 3 years younger.

My argument coming into the season was that we could have gotten a better player than Varaho for our top prospect. I still maintain that, especially after Varsho regressed substantially from last season. There was always a risk that last season was an outlier season for him, and it looks like that may have been the case.

I'm not disputing any of that (although the jury is still out on the ultimate outcome of the trade and it will take several seasons to determine; Moreno's season was far from impressive and we still have 2 better catchers on the roster than him). My only point was that Belt was and is a massive upgrade on Gurriel. On that part of the transaction, they made out very well.

[bluerap23]

On September 1, Belt has a 132 wRC+ and Gurriel is at 103 wRC+. That went exactly as expected (Gurriel is not good).

We all knew who Gurriel was (and that's a mediocre player with one year left on his contract). The risk was always trading our top prospect for Varsho. And after one season, it wasn't a great trade.

Varsho has been a disappointment in his first season with us (1.7 fWAR in 493 ABs, 82 wRC+).

Moreno, although unimpressive himself, had similar/better production (1.2 fWAR in in 296 ABs, 97 wRC+). He's also 3 years younger.

My argument coming into the season was that we could have gotten a better player than Varaho for our top prospect. I still maintain that, especially after Varsho regressed substantially from last season. There was always a risk that last season was an outlier season for him, and it looks like that may have been the case.

I'm not disputing any of that (although the jury is still out on the ultimate outcome of the trade and it will take several seasons to determine; Moreno's season was far from impressive and we still have 2 better catchers on the roster than him). My only point was that Belt was and is a massive upgrade on Gurriel. On that part of the transaction, they made out very well.

Why did signing Belt mean we had to get rid of Gurriel? Gurriel cost less than 5 million. How many at bats did we see go to far worse hitters this year? I'm not even mad about this trade but the logic of Belt replacing Gurriel makes no sense. This lineup lacks depth and Gurriel would have helped. Teoscar even more so. We should have kept at least 1 of them.

[Randle McMurphy]

We all knew who Gurriel was (and that's a mediocre player with one year left on his contract). The risk was always trading our top prospect for Varsho. And after one season, it wasn't a great trade.

Varsho has been a disappointment in his first season with us (1.7 fWAR in 493 ABs, 82 wRC+).

Moreno, although unimpressive himself, had similar/better production (1.2 fWAR in in 296 ABs, 97 wRC+). He's also 3 years younger.

My argument coming into the season was that we could have gotten a better player than Varaho for our top prospect. I still maintain that, especially after Varsho regressed substantially from last season. There was always a risk that last season was an outlier season for him, and it looks like that may have been the case.

I'm not disputing any of that (although the jury is still out on the ultimate outcome of the trade and it will take several seasons to determine; Moreno's season was far from impressive and we still have 2 better catchers on the roster than him). My only point was that Belt was and is a massive upgrade on Gurriel. On that part of the transaction, they made out very well.

Why did signing Belt mean we had to get rid of Gurriel? Gurriel cost less than 5 million. How many at bats did we see go to far worse hitters this year? I'm not even mad about this trade but the logic of Belt replacing Gurriel makes no sense. This lineup lacks depth and Gurriel would have helped. Teoscar even more so. We should have kept at least 1 of them.

That wasn't the timeline of events. They dumped Gurriel in that trade before signing Belt, presumably because Gurriel sucks and knew they could replace his bat very easily with a player like Belt. Which they did.

No idea why anybody wanted to keep Gurriel on the roster, guys like him are a dime a dozen. Also no idea what Teoscar has to do with anything here (who I would not have traded for a RP myself).

[Mehar]

Moreno hit .348 in July before being injured for a couple of weeks, and since returning from his injury nearly 3 weeks ago, he has been excellent defensively and offensively at plate hitting around .330. Moreno had one rough month in June, but has been very good otherwise in his Rookie Year. This is Year 4 for Varsho, and he has regressed compared to 2022. Varsho has been terrible all year offensively. When it seems like he has a good week, he then reverts to being below average offensively.

Why we discussing Belt vs. Gurriel? Belt was supposed to replace the production of Hernandez, which Ross Atkins mentioned in Spring Training. Love Varsho's defense though, even though I was underwhelmed by the deal. If people think Moreno has been underwhelming (despite having a good year as a Rookie), Varsho has been more underwhelming. One of the worst hitting Starting Outfielders in all of MLB is Varsho.

Gabriel Moreno Has Entered the Catcher Gold Glove Conversation
https://www.si.com/mlb/diamondbacks/analysis/gabriel-moreno-has-entered-the-catcher-gold-glove-conversation

[bluerap23]

I'm not disputing any of that (although the jury is still out on the ultimate outcome of the trade and it will take several seasons to determine; Moreno's season was far from impressive and we still have 2 better catchers on the roster than him). My only point was that Belt was and is a massive upgrade on Gurriel. On that part of the transaction, they made out very well.

Why did signing Belt mean we had to get rid of Gurriel? Gurriel cost less than 5 million. How many at bats did we see go to far worse hitters this year? I'm not even mad about this trade but the logic of Belt replacing Gurriel makes no sense. This lineup lacks depth and Gurriel would have helped. Teoscar even more so. We should have kept at least 1 of them.

That wasn't the timeline of events. They dumped Gurriel in that trade before signing Belt, presumably because Gurriel sucks and knew they could replace his bat very easily with a player like Belt. Which they did.

No idea why anybody wanted to keep Gurriel on the roster, guys like him are a dime a dozen. Also no idea what Teoscar has to do with anything here (who I would not have traded for a RP myself).

Lourdes would be the 5th best offensive player on this squad and considerably better offensively than Varsho. But yes, I wouldn't care had they kept Teoscar. It is the loss of both that has really hurt.