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Going into spring training JP/Gibbons and the management team have a great problem to deal with. An overabundance of solid pitchers filling the bullpen and starting staff.

Question marks remain for the fifth starters spot and an extra pitcher or two in the BP.

Currently here's the pitching staff that's looking for a spot

11 pitchers:

Halladay
Burnett
McGowan
Marcum
Accardo
Janssen
Downs
League
Wolfe
Ryan
Tallet

1 open spot:

Litsch
Chacin
Frasor

Question is....do we keep Janssen in the pen...or do we use him as our fifth starter?

Scenario 1: Used as 5th starter

In: Frasor
Out: Litsch (AAA), Chacin (Traded??)

Scenario 2: Used in pen (from what i hear Gibbons is pro-bullpen)

In: Chacin (experienced and lefty starter
Out: Frasor (dealt), Litsch (AAA)

your thoughts??

I doubt that all 11 of the listed pitchers are healthy and ready for the opener. BJ Ryan for one isn't a sure thing to be ready.

But if all 11 do make the opening day roster I think that Chacin has the best chance to make the 5th starter spot. You need depth in the rotation right down to AAA and it's going to be easier to send Litsch down until he's needed rather than creating a hole by trading Chacin.

Frasor actually pitched better than his ERA shows last year so I wouldn't mind he he stuck around in the pen either.

So the pitching is solid, the defence is very solid, and the offense is fine as well. Someone tell me why JP is so hated again? He's put together a good team here.

It really depends on Ryan's health, and to a lesser extent League's health. If Ryan is healthy, then that gives the Jays the option of putting Janssen in the rotation and simply moving everyone else in the pen back a spot. However, if Ryan misses the first month or so, and League doesn't go back to his 2006 form, then it will be tougher to take Janssen out of the pen.

If Chacin is healthy, then I also think it's his spot to lose, but I don't think he'll be healthy. If I were to guess, I'd say Ryan misses the first month (at least) and the team goes with Litsch as the 5th starter.

Lanny-Barbie wrote:So the pitching is solid, the defence is very solid, and the offense is fine as well. Someone tell me why JP is so hated again? He's put together a good team here.

the Yankees' and Red Sox' are just better

we need to know who we're dealing with....those teams just always find a way with their 200 mil

Lanny-Barbie wrote:So the pitching is solid, the defence is very solid, and the offense is fine as well. Someone tell me why JP is so hated again? He's put together a good team here.

Wow. With that evaluation you'd think we were a 95-100 win team contending for the World Series, wouldn't you? Didn't we win 83 games last season with a pretty healthy budget at his disposal? And we improved where exactly during the off-season?

As for JP......

JP has averaged 80 wins a season during his 6 years running the team. During the final 4 years of the Gord Ash era before he took over we averaged 84 wins a season.

JP has almost doubled the payroll in the last 5+ years and the product on the field only looks marginally better (if at all).

Our farm system is amongst the very worst in baseball and has been for about 3+ years now. Even the young players on the roster were almost all drafted by Gord Ash. And it's not like he's traded most of his farm away for ML ready talent which would be a reasonable explanation, he's just drafted far too many duds.

He supposedly subscribes to the money ball theory from his days in Oakland which advocates finding undervalued talent on the market and in the draft yet he's been the King of buying high and selling low in trades and in free-agency. We lost Felipe Lopez and Chris Carpenter (cheap free-agent) for nothing yet it's hard to point to any deals where he brought in young talent before it blossomed. He paid Frank Thomas $10 million a season when he could have had him for a pennies the previous year with a nice low risk, high reward move. And in some cases, he refused to trade pending free-agents (like Carlos Delgado) for youth when the opportunity was there instead overvaluing the draft picks you get when free-agents leave. And as previously mentioned, he's generally butchered these picks anyways.

He grossly overpaid a decent but not superstar CF in Vernon Wells when he had several good trade offers on the table for him that would have brought in solid young talent (and saved him $17 million a season to spend in other places) plus he had a RF in Rios who could easily slide over to the CF spot full-time. Instead he choose to give Wells a grossly inflated contract, based on a career year, a full 1 season before he was even a free-agent. Now Wells is completely untradeable and amongst the most overpaid players in all of baseball.

We are basically an 80-85 win team with an inflated payroll so if that's your ultimate goal than yes, JP has been a fantastic GM. Funny thing though, we were an 80-85 win team with a inflated payroll when he took over the gig 6 years ago from Gord Ash, a man who it was almost universally agreed was a bad GM. So what does that make JP?

JP is criticized because he's done an awful job and he clearly hasn't been the answer in Toronto. But he certainly can talk a good game in the press so I'm not completely surprised that he still has supporters.

Frasor wasnt resigned to not be in the picture, so he isnt even a bubble guy IMO, he is a lock for the pen.

Also a lock for the pen are Accardo, Ryan, Downs and Janssen. If Ryan starts on the IL, that leaves one more available spot, but he said he plans to be ready to pitch opening day.

Locked starters are obvious: Halladay, Burnett, Marcum, McGowan. At the end of last season, Gibbons said Litsch would challenge for the 5th spot, he never mentioned Janssen in the discussion. I imagine Litsch will start the season in AAA because he has so many options left, whereas Gus wont have too many remaining.

So in my books, that has Halladay, Burnett, Marcum, McGowan, Chacin, Ryan, Accardo, Janssen, Frasor, Downs as guaranteed and Litsch starting the season in AAA.

And that leaves Wolfe and Tallet battling for the 11th spot. I like Wolfe a lot more, and trust him a lot more, and hopefully with a healthy Ryan we dont have to keep Tallet just because he is a lefty.

It appears Litsch is the guy in the 5 spot now that Janssen is done and Chacin has been snet down. My question then is, who takes over the fifth spot in the event of injury or that Litsch just isn't ready for the fulltime gig?

I think Wolfe, Frasor and probably Tallet are now locks for the pen although there is an outside shot that Parrish, Camp or Wells could sneak in there with the way those three have pitched.

Starters Pen
Halladay Ryan
Burnett Accardo
McGowan Downs
Marcum League
Litsch Frasor
Tallet/Camp/Parrish/Wells