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Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:07 pm
by Shaazzam
http://sportsnet.ca/baseball/2008/09/27 ... n_reports/

The "fair number" suggested to keep starter A.J. Burnett off the free-agent market is $30 million over two years. And the hard-throwing starter likes it.

"Nice," Burnett said. "That's more than I thought they would come up with (pause). Here at least."


Sounds good but it is being reported by sportsnet. It also says that the offer has not been made officially. Could just be posturing by the state-errr-Ted run media.

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:23 pm
by evilRyu
that would be market value for a pitcher that had the season Burnett has.. but the thing is, can he be reproduce these type of numbers? not only was he injury-free, but it was also a "contract season" for him as well.. but he does look like an entirely different animal out there when he's on the mound

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:51 pm
by Duncanfan
interesting to say the least

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:04 am
by Alfred
Man, if we sign him, I think that would clearly be a case of overpaying for a contract year. Is AJ as good as he played this year? NO!

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:04 am
by Geddy
I think some other team will way over value AJ and will come out with a crazy offer. I personally don't think he can stay healthy for as long as he did this season in the next few seasons. With that said I wouldn't mind having him back as long as it's not for a high price.

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:14 am
by Dr Octagon
So.

He has a injury-free season in a year that he can become a free agent if he chooses to. This season looks good on the surface, but no way do I want him back.

The second he signs (if he does) an extension, he's back to starting only (+/-) 20 games.

Let the Yankees sign him...

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:53 am
by Peteros
Injuries aside, AJ is a strike out machine. I say sign him to an extension if you can. The Marcum and McGowan situation, has put pressure on management. He walks out and we are left with an average starting rotation. Unless management goes out and signs someone else like Sheets. But this is not guaranteed.

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:59 am
by Schad
Heh, Kyle Lohse signed today for 4/$41m with a full no-trade; the Jays are, in essence, asking Burnett to stick around for 4/$54m, probably with a half no-trade.

Lohse's three-year averages are 171 IP, a 4.65 ERA and 1.40 WHIP, 5.9 K/9 and 2.25:1 K/BB. He is, at best, an average starter. If that's a market-setter, even the generous contract offered to Burnett isn't going to get it done...and with a number of big-market teams likely to be circling, this offseason could be one hell of a feeding frenzy.

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Fri Oct 3, 2008 9:01 pm
by victor page
Surely the Jays can do better for $15M a year than Angie Burnett. The guy has great stuff but no heart - he won't pitch through a little pain, his ERA is higher than Jesse Litsch, He's never going to pitch for a playoff team (unless the Angels sign him to be their 4th starter or something like that).

He remids me of Ted Lilly - a talented pitcher but not a winner. The Jays didn't miss Ted Lilly for one minute. It will be the same with Anna Burnett.

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sat Oct 4, 2008 12:59 am
by Mr Swagtastic
victor page wrote:Surely the Jays can do better for $15M a year than Angie Burnett. The guy has great stuff but no heart - he won't pitch through a little pain, his ERA is higher than Jesse Litsch, He's never going to pitch for a playoff team (unless the Angels sign him to be their 4th starter or something like that).

He remids me of Ted Lilly - a talented pitcher but not a winner. The Jays didn't miss Ted Lilly for one minute. It will be the same with Anna Burnett.


If Tedd Lilly is getting $10 per year I think $15 for AJ is more the fair. AJ can lead the league is strikeouts and has really good stuff. If he wasn't injured Toronto would have potentialy 2 top 15 pitchers in the leagues as starters ala Doc and AJ. I don't see the hate on AJ he's a good pitcher but sometimes tries to rely on his fastball to much to overpower hitters.

The names out there are "meh" so I think we need AJ Burnett moreso then a Dempster

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sat Oct 4, 2008 3:21 am
by Schad
victor page wrote:Surely the Jays can do better for $15M a year than Angie Burnett. The guy has great stuff but no heart - he won't pitch through a little pain, his ERA is higher than Jesse Litsch, He's never going to pitch for a playoff team (unless the Angels sign him to be their 4th starter or something like that).

He remids me of Ted Lilly - a talented pitcher but not a winner. The Jays didn't miss Ted Lilly for one minute. It will be the same with Anna Burnett.


I actually agree on the subject, but not at all with the reasoning. Burnett is a solid second starter, and these days a solid second starter who has the stuff to repeat that performance on a yearly basis is worth eight figures a year...4 years/$54m is reasonable within that environment.

But the Jays shouldn't be trying to win playing by those rules. Those rules work only for a select few, and one really has to view the game as having two distinct financial markets; the top tier, comprised of the Yanks, Sox, Mets, Cubs, Dodgers and Angels, and the rest. A number of teams (Detroit, Seattle, Atlanta) have spent themselves into the same tax bracket, but lack the resources to do so indefinitely. Many others don't even try. Yet when it comes to above average but not elite pitchers (and to a lesser extent position players), just about every team in the league is willing to spend like the big boys.

Which is idiotic. What we're dealing with is a system that overrewards marginal success: a guy who is around 90% of league average for three to four years is going to earn a couple mil a year, if he sticks around at all. A pitcher at the league average with some semblance of stuff has suddenly become worth $6-8m a year, usually with long contracts. And a pitcher like Burnett (or if you're talking about the fusion of overpayment and unrealistic expectations, Lohse or Silva or Suppan or -- projected to be 10% better than league average -- is poised to earn $12-14m a year and no one blinks an eye. You're unlikely to find a better example of diminishing marginal returns in the business world.

Why does it continue? Because if you have enough cash, the model works. The league averaged 774 runs scored and allowed this year; add 10% to the runs scored and take away 10% of the runs allowed and you have a team that leads the league in run differential. Problem being that you can't half-ass it, which is what many teams try to do...you either spend all of that money, or you try a different formula, because all of the returns are in that narrow gap between 90-95 wins; it's worth paying through the nose for those last couple wins to get into the playoffs (and compete when there), which is why the top spenders are willing to dump huge amounts of cash. The middle road simply leads to an unbalanced team on which a couple of above-average players are making more than a quarter of the team's salary, meaning that too many important spots are filled on the cheap, and too many corners cut in the organization as a whole to support that top-heavy structure.

That's where the Jays are right now. They're forking over the cash for the $100/bottle wine, but when the dinner menu comes they balk and order the house salad. Even if the rotation was healthy going into next year, re-signing Burnett means cutting a lot of corners to keep the team financially healthy: with Rios and Wells set to receive huge pay hikes, there'll be no money remaining to add the pieces necessary to make this a playoff team, and that's not even taking into consideration the strength of the division.

For that reason, the Jays need to stop playing the big boys' game. They need to start valuing players not on their worth relative to the market, but relative to the team's financial state and expected performance. If Burnett can be replaced by a guy who does 80% as well and makes one-fifth of the price, you're looking at $40m over four years freed up to address other issues. In today's market, the best pitching is young pitching...they're cheap enough that you can have all sorts of veteran insurance policies, yet good enough (if you have plenty of them) to provide returns that approximate your average overpriced team of vets. Look at the Rays; their pitching staff is dirt cheap, yet extremely effective because they've focused on the bottom of the pyramid.

...that rant completed, I just want to mention that the 'AJ Burnett, shrinking violet' thing is patently absurd. In his last six starts, all of which were against teams above .500 and while the Jays were mounting their late-season charge, Burnett had an ERA of 1.90, WHIP of 1.06, an average of 7.3 IP/game, and six straight quality starts. Would that every pitcher in the Jays staff could be as not-winner-y as Burnett was from August 29th on.

Re: Reported extension excites A.J.

Posted: Sat Oct 4, 2008 3:46 pm
by Michael Bradley
Burnett would have to be very loyal or very foolish to accept Toronto's offer. He can get a guaranteed five years at maybe $75-80 million in the open market. My guess is this is just Ricciardi's way of saying he made a fair offer so that he doesn't get railed too badly in the media when Burnett walks.

With that said, the Jays are going to miss Burnett. This is a guy who can bring no-hit stuff to Fenway and Yankee Stadium and make the Red Sox/Yankees look very bad at the plate. Granted he's unreliable year-to-year and inconsistent, but replacing 220 innings, even though his ERA was only slightly above league average overall, is going to be near impossible if done in-house. That's not even factoring having to replace Marcum for 09 and McGowan for an unknown amount of time as well. I like Cecil, and Romero/Mills might be able to contribute next season, but having to count on them to pitch major innings is not something the Jays should be comfortable doing. Or maybe they take some fliers on the Pavano's or Pedro's of the market and hope the younger starters can surprise like McGowan and Marcum did in 2007.

I've read that the Jays might trade Lind for a pitcher and move Snider to LF full-time. Seems really risky, but I don't know what other option the Jays have. Unfortunately, most of their expensive veterans are unmovable (Wells, Rolen, Overbay), so it will be hard to create any wiggle room.