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I hear there are quite a few closers available? Who is our closer if we win many games?

Right now, most likely Jason Frasor or it could be by committee ie Frasor/Downs/League (or Roenicke, if he's with the team). Could depend on matchup if it's by committee.

I doubt the Jays would make a move for a closer. However, I wouldn't put it past AA to pick one up cheaply and trade him by the deadline for prospects ie Octavio Dotel.

trellaine201 wrote:I hear there are quite a few closers available? Who is our closer if we win many games?

We've got tons of options on the roster between Downs, Frasor, Accardo or League. It truly is the least of the teams worries right now.

I'll go with either the Mongolian Destructor or the Egyptian Druglord.

League should never be an option to pitch in the majors, let alone close games. Money has to be on Frasor though Accardo, Downs and Roenicke will be knocking at his door if he falters.

OldNo7 wrote:League should never be an option to pitch in the majors, let alone close games. Money has to be on Frasor though Accardo, Downs and Roenicke will be knocking at his door if he falters.

Yeah no. Brandon League has completely incredible stuff. Top 5 closer sort of stuff. Last year he was simply either very unlucky, or prone to giving up hits at the wrong time. Either way, the quality of his pitches dictates you've got to give him another chance. And probably one more after that. Because his pitches are just filthy when they're on.

Modern_epic wrote:

OldNo7 wrote:League should never be an option to pitch in the majors, let alone close games. Money has to be on Frasor though Accardo, Downs and Roenicke will be knocking at his door if he falters.

Yeah no. Brandon League has completely incredible stuff. Top 5 closer sort of stuff. Last year he was simply either very unlucky, or prone to giving up hits at the wrong time. Either way, the quality of his pitches dictates you've got to give him another chance. And probably one more after that. Because his pitches are just filthy when they're on.

key part of what you said is your last 3 words..."when they're on"

which they never are.

Sure he has great stuff, always has. But hes never been able to control it. It doesnt matter how hard you throw if you put it belt high down the middle of the plate. The guy has been given chance after chance to stick with the club but has lost the confidence of every manager (except Cito it seems).

Since 2005 he is 6-10, with 2 saves and 7 blown. ERA over 4, 72 bb and given up 22 HR in 198 IP. That's a lot of bombs and a lot of walks for someone who is supposed to be trusted to close out games. Also, considering his "stuff", he averages under 7 k/9. Add in 15 guys hit, 19 wild pitches over that time.

I also dont want to hear the arguments that "he is getting better". No, hes not. In 2008 his ERA was 2.18, in 2009 it was back up to his norm of 4.58. And last year 36% of the hits he gave up were for extra bases (26/72). So you want to give him another chance, and another after that...since when is 5 years not enough chances?

Modern_epic wrote:

OldNo7 wrote:League should never be an option to pitch in the majors, let alone close games. Money has to be on Frasor though Accardo, Downs and Roenicke will be knocking at his door if he falters.

Yeah no. Brandon League has completely incredible stuff. Top 5 closer sort of stuff. Last year he was simply either very unlucky, or prone to giving up hits at the wrong time. Either way, the quality of his pitches dictates you've got to give him another chance. And probably one more after that. Because his pitches are just filthy when they're on.

Especially as he finally seems to discovered how to strike people out and keep his BB/9 rate down. I would use Frasor or Downs as the closer simply to help their value, but League should get plenty of 7th/8th inning reps.

OldNo7 wrote:Sure he has great stuff, always has. But hes never been able to control it. It doesnt matter how hard you throw if you put it belt high down the middle of the plate. The guy has been given chance after chance to stick with the club but has lost the confidence of every manager (except Cito it seems).

Since 2005 he is 6-10, with 2 saves and 7 blown. ERA over 4, 72 bb and given up 22 HR in 198 IP. That's a lot of bombs and a lot of walks for someone who is supposed to be trusted to close out games. Also, considering his "stuff", he averages under 7 k/9. Add in 15 guys hit, 19 wild pitches over that time.

I also dont want to hear the arguments that "he is getting better". No, hes not. In 2008 his ERA was 2.18, in 2009 it was back up to his norm of 4.58. And last year 36% of the hits he gave up were for extra bases (26/72). So you want to give him another chance, and another after that...since when is 5 years not enough chances?

Judging relievers by ERA is silly. They don't get enough attempts for the sample size to be that relevant, and they often have little control over it, as they frequently get pulled before the runners score.

FIP, WHIP, K/9, K/BB and HR rate are in collaboration much better, and League was above average to very good with all of them last year. 3.58 FIP (and 3.16 xFIP, which adjusts for park), 1.25 WHIP (with an unlucky BABIP of .322), 9.16 K/9, 3.62 K/BB, 0.96 HR/9. All that is at worst above average.

Modern_epic wrote:Judging relievers by ERA is silly. They don't get enough attempts for the sample size to be that relevant, and they often have little control over it, as they frequently get pulled before the runners score.

FIP, WHIP, K/9, K/BB and HR rate are in collaboration much better, and League was above average to very good with all of them last year. 3.58 FIP (and 3.16 xFIP, which adjusts for park), 1.25 WHIP (with an unlucky BABIP of .322), 9.16 K/9, 3.62 K/BB, 0.96 HR/9. All that is at worst above average.

Good post. Judging any pitcher by Wins and any reliever by his ERA should be banned and punishable by having to become a Red Sox fan.

Like Schad said, I'd let Frasor or Downs close to raise/keep their trade value and let League blow away the 7/8th inning.

Modern_epic wrote:
Judging relievers by ERA is silly. They don't get enough attempts for the sample size to be that relevant, and they often have little control over it, as they frequently get pulled before the runners score.

FIP, WHIP, K/9, K/BB and HR rate are in collaboration much better, and League was above average to very good with all of them last year. 3.58 FIP (and 3.16 xFIP, which adjusts for park), 1.25 WHIP (with an unlucky BABIP of .322), 9.16 K/9, 3.62 K/BB, 0.96 HR/9. All that is at worst above average.

Well said...his ERA is that high largely because he gave up two grand slams, which is rather fluky for a reliever with a middle-of-the-road HR/9, and a couple other multi-run HRs. Remove just those two pitches and his ERA drops a full run; as you said, that's why it's hard to trust ERA for relievers.

You could say that about every single pitcher though if you are trying to make an argument for him seeming better; "oh just take out a few of those big HRs he gave up". The problem is, he is going to give up HRs again this year, and next, because he is extremely inconsistent with his control.

OldNo7 wrote:You could say that about every single pitcher though if you are trying to make an argument for him seeming better; "oh just take out a few of those big HRs he gave up". The problem is, he is going to give up HRs again this year, and next, because he is extremely inconsistent with his control.

You can say that about many relievers, which is why ERA is a poor way by which to gauge their performance. If you look at his ERA and nothing else, you'd think that he was a stud in 2008 and a bust in 2009, when the opposite was true...he got very lucky in 2008, and very unlucky in 2009. The fact that our defense got markedly worse between those years is another factor worth considering, as well.

And he'll probably give up HRs next year to the tune of 1 per 9 innings or less, as he has his entire career. That's plenty tolerable.

Right now it's Frasor, and Downs is there with him.

Accardo is not even a thought he has some problem with Cito so that won't go to well.

As for league he's way to predictable and inconsistent

He uses 2 pitches with very similar locations.

I'm kind of surprised that there's been this much discussion about the subject. I don't see how the closer's gig isn't just Scott Downs' to lose. Sure he struggled a bit in the second half of the season but he's still the most experienced option the team has. If nothing else I think he'll get the job to keep his trade value up.

Also League is waay to talented to give up on as a 26 year old. He's got two very good (albeit short) seasons under his belt and he just had his best strikeout rate of his career which is promising.