George Karl- Fact or fiction

[Maf]

Same old again. Same people here still bitching about Karl's rotation, about his doghouses etc.
So, can you please throw some names on me? Who blossomed so much after he left Denver?

Because seriosly. If you look on Denver Nuggets rosters of the past you'll see so many players who are out of the league for some time.

No need to talk about veterans. Camby and K-Mart (count Nene here as well) still fights with injuries. Billups rejuvenated his career in here. And nobody can say if Melo's changed attitude has more to do with Woodson's coaching or Melo's beeing tired to see his friends from US team winning.

Sure, sometimes we thought he overplayed some players (Boykins, A.Carter...). But role players like Najera, Kleiza, Diawara, Dahntay Jones had their best seasons under him.

So, who are the players Karl so much ignored and deserved playing? And they showed the world how great they were but couldn't show it under this terrible coach Karl?

[pickIBL]

Speaking for myself only I don't think Karl has put in an offensive system during his time that can help the Nuggets get buckets in the half court. That is my number 1 issue with coach. Secondly it is not so much the players that got away but the players that just got two much time in the rotation. Anthony Carter and Earl Boykins are just two classic examples.

Right now we are seeing Corey Brewer come back down to earth and it is becoming pretty obvious that Jordan Hamilton can bring more to the table going forward with the Nuggets long term. So if Karl is able to recognize that as the season moves on I can respect that. Hamilton should be getting 20-25 minutes a game not Brewer.

[Maf]

Anthony Carter- Tough choice. Sure I hate when we started PG whou couldn't handle ball with his right hand, couldn't shoot, couldn't pass... but I believe he's very intelligent players and when he played for Knicks he played in one game such great defense on D-Wade... And in that time we hadn't had much choice. JR and nothing. But he was overplayed of course.
Brewer- Can't much comment on him. I've never liked him, think his defense is only about gambling for steals and I believe he is gay. At least he runs like one.
Hamilton- he is really good shooter. And we have like... None shooter beside him. But he isn't smart on defense. I understand, he fights for minutes so he shoots every time he catches the ball. That's player's mentality. Coaches mentality thinks otherwise. And Hamilton really can't handle the ball. He makes a lot of very stupid moves that ends up with off.fauls, TO's etc... He might cut them given playing time. He might not.

Thing is- GK sees him at practices every day. He has his reasons to not play him for sure. And as I tried to declare-

There isn't really player who would deserve much playing time in Karl's Denver job who would blossom after leaving Nuggets. Look in the past and find me one.

[dis4ryan]

Love George Karl but JR Smith (while it's early in the season) is having career highs in points, assits, steals, rebounds and blocks. Career low in turnovers per 36 mins. He can score in the half-court, too. Wish we still had him.

[eathb_au]

His playoffs record is atrocious.

We're underachieving for the second season in a row (ESPN/experts predcit that we'd be top 4, we are barely over .500). He wasn't able to get any higher than the 6th seed when we had Melo-Iverson-Camby which was arguably the most talented team at the time.

He cannot get the team to play half court offense.

Rotations are bad. Thinks Corey Brewer is the answer to our 3 pt problems, oh and double standards too. McGee, Hamilton, Faried (in early days and start of this season) get benched for a little mistake; Karl does not bench Brewer, Miller, Chandler when they make MANY dumb plays.

We have never been an elite defensive team under Karl.

And his stubbornness to adjust to game situations. Example, Nuggets vs Heat this season. Two games that we lost because of poor coaching. You would think after the first game he would learn that playing Faried at center is playing into Miami's hand because McGee/Koufos were dominating the midget Miami lineup. No, he did it again. Even Miami fans said they would've lost that game had Karl not gone small.

[Maf]

Really nice answer. I won't use sarcasm because I know my english isn't that great so you might misundestood my question. I asked about players who were such ignored (as someone still brings in Hamilton as a savior) and showed that Karl was wrong.

So you throw that he never tought them to play defense and half-court offense. No argue. Just you answered unasked question. Btw ESPN picked them.. should be an argument? OKC, SAS, LAL and LAC are lock (truth, LAL aren't living up to their potential). And you can debate if Memphis hasn't better team. They are the experts who call Denver A DEEP TEAM. Deep team with seven man rotation.


and to dis4ryan- I wish him luck in NY. He was tremendous player to watch. He looks finally determined to play defense. But his 15pts/game doesn't really seem like huge upgrade... Karl hated his attitude and if you haven't read this

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/839 ... understood


do it. Nice and interesting article which shows that it wasn't only JR Smith fault as his father's...

You know what I told J.R.? I told him, 'Every time you get in, shoot it. He's going to take you out anyway. So you might as well shoot it

[torotoe]

My issues with Karl:

1. His rotation and poor timing in this area
2. Double standards with players
3. Lack of timeouts and poor timing in this area
4. The other team always goes on a 10-0 streak after a timeout.
5. Never has been a good defensive coach
6. WTF moments on defense having to do with scheme
7. Insistance on small ball, and he virtually never goes big
8. Pulling players when they are hot

Karl's eight deadly sins.

[Powder Blue]

Read what everyone has written, I echo all of it!

It's not about who has done what elsewhere....It's about what GK has done here.

He's gotten out of the first round ONE time. In that span the players have all changed and the front office has too. Why keep him around if he can't improve the team?

Why draft and pay young talent if the coach won't play them? This team can't shoot for **** and somehow the best shooter can barely get off the bench. Meanwhile Gallo and Ty can brick all day and play 35 minutes.

So you're saying "Keep GK and keep losing in the first round every year because no player has left his system and performed better?"

[Maf]

Powder Blue: I'm saying stop complaining about Karl until you have better coach to root for. He's better then 2/3 of NBA coaches. Do I need to remind Dantley? Try to remember how many people here tried to sold him as much better coach. Sloan wouldn't take this job. JVG or SVG? Please no. Nelson, corpse of Lenny Wilkins? Fratello wouldn't probably leave his job. Mike Brown- get out. I just can't see that great coach that would help us right now.
Karl is no P.Jackson or Popovich. But still damn good.

I don't defend Karl for everything. He has lot of flaws. Defense first thing that commes to mind. But when someone sais he ignores such good players on his bench, I say he's not. You might keep saying how Hamilton shouldn't be ignored and who knows, he might be out of the league in two years and noone will sign him. Lot of players ended that way.
He got us to second round once. Truth. But how many times you felt we played lesser team? For me only 2010 Jazz. And they had same record as Nuggets. And I give you free pass to Clippers series when I didn't cheer for Denver.
And after Melo trade. When we lost Melo, Billups and JR. How many of us thought we're not gonna be really good team? And we still are. That is what George Karl brings. Exciting very good team. Not championship team.

And I don't buy argument "if you don't play for tittle you play for nothing." Since 1980!!! Philly has one, Dallas has one, Miami and Houston two, Detroit three. Rest of them belongs to SA, Chicago, Boston and Lakers. It's not like in NHL where almost anyone can win it.

[floppymoose]

Powder Blue: I'm saying stop complaining about Karl until you have better coach to root for.

That's a key point. Every single board on realgm has fans complaining about the coach's rotations, and usually about timeout usage as well. The guy you get to replace Karl is still going to get those complaints from the exact same crowd.

You don't have a bad coach. If you did, you could ire him with no plan B. But you don't, so you should not make a move unless you have someone clearly better lined up for the job.

[Maf]

Powder Blue: I'm saying stop complaining about Karl until you have better coach to root for.

That's a key point. Every single board on realgm has fans complaining about the coach's rotations, and usually about timeout usage as well. The guy you get to replace Karl is still going to get those complaints from the exact same crowd.

You don't have a bad coach. If you did, you could ire him with no plan B. But you don't, so you should not make a move unless you have someone clearly better lined up for the job.

So true. I read OKC fans complaining about Brooks, Heat fans about Spoelstra... Old truth sais- Players win, coaches loose.

[realgangstas777]

Powder Blue: I'm saying stop complaining about Karl until you have better coach to root for.

That's a key point. Every single board on realgm has fans complaining about the coach's rotations, and usually about timeout usage as well. The guy you get to replace Karl is still going to get those complaints from the exact same crowd.

You don't have a bad coach. If you did, you could ire him with no plan B. But you don't, so you should not make a move unless you have someone clearly better lined up for the job.

BS.

How many other teams have had carmelo anthony, allen iverson, chauncey billups, jr smith, and nene? Hell throw in kenyon martin as well who has also been to the finals with NJ

GK's teams have ALWAYS been loaded with talent...more so then most NBA teams. Only other team with more star power during those years in the west would be san antonio and the LA Lakers. The Nuggets FO built a roster suited for Melo that could contend and Karl still finds way to eff up. (The infamous inbound pass from 09)

When billups came to denver he said karl was the only coach he knew that didnt have inbounds plays. All those guys I listed btw had more success under different coaches. Billups won the NBA championship and got the MVP with detriot, Iverson reached the NBA finals with Philli, JR is having career highs in NYK, Melo looking like he might get a title this year, Nene looked solid for washington, kenyon was a star in jersey

Enough with the exuses for GK.

[realgangstas777]

Powder Blue: I'm saying stop complaining about Karl until you have better coach to root for.

That's a key point. Every single board on realgm has fans complaining about the coach's rotations, and usually about timeout usage as well. The guy you get to replace Karl is still going to get those complaints from the exact same crowd.

You don't have a bad coach. If you did, you could ire him with no plan B. But you don't, so you should not make a move unless you have someone clearly better lined up for the job.

So true. I read OKC fans complaining about Brooks, Heat fans about Spoelstra... Old truth sais- Players win, coaches loose.

Eric spolestra has won an NBA title. Brooks has also reached the finals with durant ALREADY with a team no more talented then what the nuggets have had in the past. GK has only been to the finals once with another team loaded with talent back in the day.

So tired of the pro-karl crowd. If he coached in LA his ass would be sent packing after 1 season

[realgangstas777]

Because seriosly. If you look on Denver Nuggets rosters of the past you'll see so many players who are out of the league for some time.

Lol are you serious. Name the said players for me. Birdman is old now, kenyon is old, iverson is old. If a player is out of the league now most likely it is aged related. Nothing to do with talent...

[Maf]

Because seriosly. If you look on Denver Nuggets rosters of the past you'll see so many players who are out of the league for some time.

Lol are you serious. Name the said players for me. Birdman is old now, kenyon is old, iverson is old. If a player is out of the league now most likely it is aged related. Nothing to do with talent...

You might try to think first write later. Some names that played 10+ minutes in Denver. Gary Forbes, Shelden Williams, Melvin Ely, Malik Allen, Joey Graham, Renaldo Balkman, Yakhouba Diawara... Players who never played as good as in Denver- Eduardo Najera, Earl Boykins, Linas Kleiza...

If I say role or bench players you shouldn't look on starters. And to your first post- I know everyone uses only those arguments that fits him. At least use good ones! It's kind of shameful to remind you Melo won ONE playoff game since trade. Or Iverson being on downhill of his career leading to be out of the league two years since his trade to Detroit. Nene solid... Putting about same numbers as in Denver and then out with injuries again. Very solid. Or JR Smith and his all-star caliber 14pts a game.


Again- I asked who are the players who Karl ignored and who played so good after leaving Nuggets. And you could come up with only JR Smith. Funny.

[realgangstas777]

Because seriosly. If you look on Denver Nuggets rosters of the past you'll see so many players who are out of the league for some time.

Lol are you serious. Name the said players for me. Birdman is old now, kenyon is old, iverson is old. If a player is out of the league now most likely it is aged related. Nothing to do with talent...

You might try to think first write later. Some names that played 10+ minutes in Denver. Gary Forbes, Shelden Williams, Melvin Ely, Malik Allen, Joey Graham, Renaldo Balkman, Yakhouba Diawara... Players who never played as good as in Denver- Eduardo Najera, Earl Boykins, Linas Kleiza...

If I say role or bench players you shouldn't look on starters. And to your first post- I know everyone uses only those arguments that fits him. At least use good ones! It's kind of shameful to remind you Melo won ONE playoff game since trade. Or Iverson being on downhill of his career leading to be out of the league two years since his trade to Detroit. Nene solid... Putting about same numbers as in Denver and then out with injuries again. Very solid. Or JR Smith and his all-star caliber 14pts a game.


Again- I asked who are the players who Karl ignored and who played so good after leaving Nuggets. And you could come up with only JR Smith. Funny.

Lol pal your argument is weak and desperate. Calling my examples poor and that I need to 'think" first comes across as you being a troll and not very smart. Get a clue

Iverson joined the nuggets 7 years ago. He was still an elite talent then. Oh and melo won one playoff game since the trade. Knicks were a mess last year with new coaches and injured players. Seems you ignored billups as well.

Regarding the bench players who cares? They were added to the team to build around melo. Keep sticking up for karl all ya want though. Hes an overrated coach who needs to fire himself. If thats the best you can do to argue in favor of Karl ya lost. Garbage argument from you mate. Stopping so low as to saying Karl had roleplayers playing good? Wow...

[Maf]

You might to miss what is this topic about. Nevermind. Read it again.
If talking about Karl's not so good role players performing well is garbage why did you join?

You know what? I'm out of here. You consider watching TNT open court. There are parts when they talk about which coach they would want to play for and who is the best coach who never won a tittle. But hey, what do these people know. Obviously, some ex-NBA allstars, HoFers, veterans with rings, they don't have much NBA knowledge or experience. You know better Karl sucks.

[gensu3k1]

You might to miss what is this topic about. Nevermind. Read it again.
If talking about Karl's not so good role players performing well is garbage why did you join?

You know what? I'm out of here. You consider watching TNT open court. There are parts when they talk about which coach they would want to play for and who is the best coach who never won a tittle. But hey, what do these people know. Obviously, some ex-NBA allstars, HoFers, veterans with rings, they don't have much NBA knowledge or experience. You know better Karl sucks.

What I would ask you to consider is that maybe Karl was once a good coach but has lost it.

[floppymoose]

Who do you have lined up to coach that is better than Karl?