Is this The Plan ??

[skywalker33]

Very interesting article from Gordon Gross, (a blogger I actually like btw) thought I'd see what others thought of it.

https://www.denverstiffs.com/2018/1/2/16842254/youth-and-genius-how-the-denver-nuggets-plan-to-contend-with-jamal-murray-gary-harris-nikola-jokic

Some interesting points to bring up

- Has Malone figured out how to bring out the best in Jokic, will he ever ?

- While a star in the making, is he/will Murray ever be a true PG, do we need to still look for one ? How does Murray/Harris fit together then ?

- Harris really is a perfect fit with Jokic, gotta agree here

- Do we need to go get a Go-To player to help our youth learn this ? Is Millsap that player ? If not do we look to trade Millsap for that player if one's available ?

It's a good read, thought provoking IMO

Thoughts ?

-

[Powder Blue]

Gordon is one of the better one's on DS, he's not just a puff piece guy.

It's hard for me to buy into the notion that the Nuggets are paving the way for future success when they overpay a low impact player every off-season. They're not going to be able to go get better players in FA and they over-value all their kids in trade talks. The kids will get better sure, but once it's time to pay them we're going to have a tough time keeping them all AND building around them.

Yes the Nuggets need a go-to player, Look back at the Minnesota game. Their ceiling is limited until a current player grows into that or they get one.

[NuggetsWY]

I like much of what he says. He usually provides some good observations, unlike some of the sycophants that bombard us with "Nuggets-speak". He's much nicer than I am in that he says the Nuggets have a plan. I just don't believe they do. Malone seems like a good coach for a 55 win team that already has everything in place.

He clearly believes Murray is the best shot at the Nuggets having a "closer" and I totally agree. I'm OK with waiting for the team to develop, but until Malone stops relying on his veterans, the youth is not going to develop as quickly. Fortunately, between front office roster moves and an injury, he doesn't have much choice except to rely on his young players - and they are starting to show exactly what they can do. I do believe they can hold a playoff spot until Millsap comes back, for the reasons given in this article.

Well worth the few minutes it took to read!

[skywalker33]

I like much of what he says. He usually provides some good observations, unlike some of the sycophants that bombard us with "Nuggets-speak". He's much nicer than I am in that he says the Nuggets have a plan. I just don't believe they do. Malone seems like a good coach for a 55 win team that already has everything in place.

He clearly believes Murray is the best shot at the Nuggets having a "closer" and I totally agree. I'm OK with waiting for the team to develop, but until Malone stops relying on his veterans, the youth is not going to develop as quickly. Fortunately, between front office roster moves and an injury, he doesn't have much choice except to rely on his young players - and they are starting to show exactly what they can do. I do believe they can hold a playoff spot until Millsap comes back, for the reasons given in this article.

Well worth the few minutes it took to read!

Well, YOU'RE the nicer one here, I'm not sure Malone has anymore than 52 wins in him coaching any team, just seems he doesn't excel at the X's and O's. But I don't see eye-to-eye on the veterans thing, right now we are starting Jokic, Harris and Murray with Lyles and Beasley/Mudiay coming off the bench, I look as Barton and Plumlee as "in-betweeners" . That's over 1/2 of the rotation being part of our young core. We'll see how 2018 Malone treats guys like Faried and Torrey too though.

[skywalker33]

Gordon is one of the better one's on DS, he's not just a puff piece guy.

It's hard for me to buy into the notion that the Nuggets are paving the way for future success when they overpay a low impact player every off-season. They're not going to be able to go get better players in FA and they over-value all their kids in trade talks. The kids will get better sure, but once it's time to pay them we're going to have a tough time keeping them all AND building around them.

Yes the Nuggets need a go-to player, Look back at the Minnesota game. Their ceiling is limited until a current player grows into that or they get one.

You have to admit Millsap is not considered a low impact free agent. I presume you are referring to Plumlee here and I do have to agree he's over paid but I think they painted themselves into a corner with the terrible trade. We did need a backup Center and to not resign him would make that look even more disastrous than it really was. No one can overlook that we should have been able to get him a lot cheaper, but I feel his contract will expire when some of our core guys are ready for new contracts.

[NuggetsWY]

I like much of what he says. He usually provides some good observations, unlike some of the sycophants that bombard us with "Nuggets-speak". He's much nicer than I am in that he says the Nuggets have a plan. I just don't believe they do. Malone seems like a good coach for a 55 win team that already has everything in place.

He clearly believes Murray is the best shot at the Nuggets having a "closer" and I totally agree. I'm OK with waiting for the team to develop, but until Malone stops relying on his veterans, the youth is not going to develop as quickly. Fortunately, between front office roster moves and an injury, he doesn't have much choice except to rely on his young players - and they are starting to show exactly what they can do. I do believe they can hold a playoff spot until Millsap comes back, for the reasons given in this article.

Well worth the few minutes it took to read!

Well, YOU'RE the nicer one here, I'm not sure Malone has anymore than 52 wins in him coaching any team, just seems he doesn't excel at the X's and O's. But I don't see eye-to-eye on the veterans thing, right now we are starting Jokic, Harris and Murray with Lyles and Beasley/Mudiay coming off the bench, I look as Barton and Plumlee as "in-betweeners" . That's over 1/2 of the rotation being part of our young core. We'll see how 2018 Malone treats guys like Faried and Torrey too though.

You're right - I still think he relies too much on Plumlee, Chandler, Barton when they are not as good as some of the young players. I'll grant you the "in-betweeners" and he's not playing Arthur & Faried (even though Faried is a better fit than Plumlee and probably Chandler). I even like Arthur better than Plumlee. He's a good tweener forward on both offense & defense.

[THE J0KER]

Murray is a pure shooter, I doubt he will ever evolute into a decent playmaker, and the only reason he can co-exist as a starter together with Harris on long terms are Jokic point-center skills. We wasted opportunity this summer to use Jamal as a crucial part of Nuggets game-changer offer for Butler or Irving, which both will much better fits with Harris and which will bring our team true leader on the floor, which Denver miss whole this century (with only 3 seasons exception, thanks to Billups). If you take look how good Butler fit to KAT and Irving to Horford, of course any of them would be perfectly adjusted with Jokic (and Millsap too).

But now is too late, that is what this (wise) blogger not understand. Chances for a small franchise like our to get an A-list all-star player on his prime of Butler/Irving level comes once in 5 years at best, so Murray-Harris-Jokic is our future even if FO change their mind because there will not be any similar offer for some "new Butler" any soon (stars in expiring year of contract like George or Cousins case of last summer doesn't count).

I will try to not repeat this ever again because it makes me angry every time I think about it, but I think if we traded Murray and our #13 for Butler when Bulls asked that, then sign Millsap, and then give Suns Mudiay, Faried and 2019 pick for Bledsoe, we would have NBA TOP5 team already this season (Bledsoe-Harris-Butler-Millsap-Jokic)!!

Of course, no reasons to cry, Murray-Harris-Jokic are bright future, already next season with their improvement and together with healthy Millsap and better Lyles we will be NBA TOP10 team... but will we ever be TOP5 team in the league, if we know that very probably no better FA than Millsap will ever to join our small market franchise?

[kinggnik87]

Murray is a pure shooter, I doubt he will ever evolute into a decent playmaker, and the only reason he can co-exist as a starter together with Harris on long terms are Jokic point-center skills. We wasted opportunity this summer to use Jamal as a crucial part of Nuggets game-changer offer for Butler or Irving, which both will much better fits with Harris and which will bring our team true leader on the floor, which Denver miss whole this century (with only 3 seasons exception, thanks to Billups). If you take look how good Butler fit to KAT and Irving to Horford, of course any of them would be perfectly adjusted with Jokic (and Millsap too).

Murray can evolve into a decent playmaker. It is still his second year and you are already doubt him when he shown flashes of superstar potential?

But now is too late, that is what this (wise) blogger not understand. Chances for a small franchise like our to get an A-list all-star player on his prime of Butler/Irving level comes once in 5 years at best, so Murray-Harris-Jokic is our future even if FO change their mind because there will not be any similar offer for some "new Butler" any soon (stars in expiring year of contract like George or Cousins case of last summer doesn't count).

I will try to not repeat this ever again because it makes me angry every time I think about it, but I think if we traded Murray and our #13 for Butler when Bulls asked that, then sign Millsap, and then give Suns Mudiay, Faried and 2019 pick for Bledsoe, we would have NBA TOP5 team already this season (Bledsoe-Harris-Butler-Millsap-Jokic)!!

Of course, no reasons to cry, Murray-Harris-Jokic are bright future, already next season with their improvement and together with healthy Millsap and better Lyles we will be NBA TOP10 team... but will we ever be TOP5 team in the league, if we know that very probably no better FA than Millsap will ever to join our small market franchise?

I disagree. What if we sign Butler or Kyrie using the Murray/Harris trade? Do you seriously think they will renew the contract with a small market team who are still 2-3 years away from even maturing into a championship team (if we do have one)? Let's not forget we have Malone, who I doubt would be able to handle the (Bledsoe-Harris-Butler-Millsap-Jokic) team you suggest.

For me, I would emphasis on the future. A talented group of youngsters with amazing culture is more important than immediate "TOP 5 Team".

[TooBad]

Trade Millsap for Wiggins and play him at the SF. Both are overpaid as of right now and although MIllsap is the better player Wiggins is better than he has played this season. Wiggins looks like he needs to get out of Minnesota and the change in scenery could make him another steal like Trey Lyles.Also, as a Canadian that would be awesome for me to watch.

[THE J0KER]

Murray can evolve into a decent playmaker. It is still his second year and you are already doubt him when he shown flashes of superstar potential?

...

I disagree. What if we sign Butler or Kyrie using the Murray/Harris trade? Do you seriously think they will renew the contract with a small market team who are still 2-3 years away from even maturing into a championship team (if we do have one)? Let's not forget we have Malone, who I doubt would be able to handle the (Bledsoe-Harris-Butler-Millsap-Jokic) team you suggest.

For me, I would emphasis on the future. A talented group of youngsters with amazing culture is more important than immediate "TOP 5 Team".

Murray will be future (super)star, but not as a playmaker. An elite shooting guard, or combo-guard which permanently can score 25+ points, but not to achieve 5 assists. There are rare exceptions for elite shooters with poor passing skills and habits to suddenly become elite playmakers (no matter is playing on PG spot or not)... James Harden, for example, but like I say, it is a rare case.

And talking about scenario what if we create once TOP5 super-team for two seasons, will players like Butler or Irving stays when their contracts once expire? But the catch is that almost nobody leaves once created a superteam where he is the big star. I'm pretty sure Butler will stay in Minnesota after 2019 till Wolves have KAT, so same I will say about him if he joins Jokic+Harris Denver this summer. People forgetting that San Antonio is actually a small market team, but when their super-team is once created it lasted already about 2 decades now, and still continues! Denver is a franchise which only two times survive a 1st round of the playoff since 1990, so of course that some bold result would be very welcome. We are not Celtics or Lakers, where the only title counts.

[THE J0KER]

Trade Millsap for Wiggins and play him at the SF. Both are overpaid as of right now and although Millsap is the better player Wiggins is better than he has played this season. Wiggins looks like he needs to get out of Minnesota and the change in scenery could make him another steal like Trey Lyles.Also, as a Canadian that would be awesome for me to watch.

I don't think Millsap is overpaid, he is just injured. If the small market team want NBA TOP30 player, that is the full price. Wiggins is overpaid in Minnesota, compared to how he plays (and at 23 he is not a just young prospect anymore), but I can't see Minnesota would ever agree with a deal you mentioned. Millsap is 33 old, so no long-term future with him, and Minnesota current PF line Gibson and Dieng would be useless after his arrival while they will lack decent SF starter (or SG starter if they put Butler on SF).

Your idea of creating notable Canadian trio is actually great from a Nuggets commercial aspect. So I would suggest Plumlee for Kelly Olynyk deal, they both have very similar contracts, and if Miami asks it we should give them also some 2nd round pick, or Lydon/Morris with Plumlee. We can also offer Faried for Olynyk, but it will be a problem how to divide his minutes with Plumlee around.

[TooBad]

Trade Millsap for Wiggins and play him at the SF. Both are overpaid as of right now and although Millsap is the better player Wiggins is better than he has played this season. Wiggins looks like he needs to get out of Minnesota and the change in scenery could make him another steal like Trey Lyles.Also, as a Canadian that would be awesome for me to watch.

I don't think Millsap is overpaid, he is just injured. If the small market team want NBA TOP30 player, that is the full price. Wiggins is overpaid in Minnesota, compared to how he plays (and at 23 he is not a just young prospect anymore), but I can't see Minnesota would ever agree with a deal you mentioned. Millsap is 33 old, so no long-term future with him, and Minnesota current PF line Gibson and Dieng would be useless after his arrival while they will lack decent SF starter (or SG starter if they put Butler on SF).

Your idea of creating notable Canadian trio is actually great from a Nuggets commercial aspect. So I would suggest Plumlee for Kelly Olynyk deal, they both have very similar contracts, and if Miami asks it we should give them also some 2nd round pick, or Lydon/Morris with Plumlee.

I don't see Miami trading Olynyk especially not for Plumlee. Olynyk has been great for them and is on a very good contract. Spolstra runs most of the Heat's offense through him (he's basically their Jokic). As for, Minnesota they are in win now mode and aren't exactly young anymore. They have an average age of over 26 which is older 17 teams I believe. You might have to give up a little more but Wiggins isn't working out for them and Millsap would be a great fit for Thibbideau due to his defense. I'm not even that big a fan of Wiggins I just wonder if he could turn it around on the right team or by playing with some people he is familiar with (he's probably worth the gamble for Denver). Worst case scenario is he'd be a 20 pt scorer who plays weak D.

[NuggetsWY]

Murray will be future (super)star, but not as a playmaker. An elite shooting guard, or combo-guard which permanently can score 25+ points, but not to achieve 5 assists. There are rare exceptions for elite shooters with poor passing skills and habits to suddenly become elite playmakers (no matter is playing on PG spot or not)... James Harden, for example, but like I say, it is a rare case.

"Playmaker" or "Point Guard" has evolved faster than most fans can keep up with. Your example of James Harden is not a lone example. Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving, Lillard, Lowry, Wall, Westbrook, Kemba Walker, D'Angelo Russell, Eric Bledsoe: All of whom do a lot of scoring. The Nuggets are not the only team without a pure "run the offense PG".

[The Rebel]

I thought it was pretty obvious that this is the plan, it has been the plan for the last couple of years, and will continue to be the plan.

Let the older veterans be replaced by the young draft picks as they develop, bring in veterans to help the young guys develop, and grow the team into a contender, instead of going all in for a team that has no chance of ever beating a combination of the Warriors, Rockets, Spurs, and Cavs in 2 or 3 straight series.

The problem is that we have spent stupid money on guys who do not fit the long term plan, and our front office does not have the balls or brains to actually seem to be able to trade our veterans when the time comes. They also need to start working on making the pieces fit, we still need to see the young guys all fit together and they need to clear some of the clutter.

Millsap was brought in to make sure this team makes the playoffs and to be a defensive leader on the court, before his injury he was given too big a role on offense but he was making a big difference on defense.

I think most Nuggets fans have always known this team was at least 2 years away from trying to contend, it is the national media and less knowledgeable fans that have been pushing this idea that the Nuggets have to go get a veteran guard so they can make a push for a top 4 seed, but unless that guy is Lebron this team is not going to contend until the young guys develop more. Patience is the key to making this team a contender.

[The Rebel]

Murray will be future (super)star, but not as a playmaker. An elite shooting guard, or combo-guard which permanently can score 25+ points, but not to achieve 5 assists. There are rare exceptions for elite shooters with poor passing skills and habits to suddenly become elite playmakers (no matter is playing on PG spot or not)... James Harden, for example, but like I say, it is a rare case.

Murray is fine as a playmaker in today's NBA, the days of guys like Rubio and Rondo running a team effectively is basically over, you have to have a PG that is a scorer to be effective. The last team that even competed for a Championship with a pass 1st playmaking PG was the Mavs in 2011 and even they had Jason Terry playing on the ball more with Kidd off the ball than a lot of people would like to remember.

Murray is actually making smart decisions for a 21 year old PG. With the starters teams are sagging off PLumlee and Chandler, they are double Jokic, leaving Murray and Harris to do the scoring, and they are doing it. One day teams may start to double Murray, and then we will see if he has the ability to create for others. When some of the bench is on the court they protect the paint and wait for Barton to try to get in the lane, it is creating open shots for Lyles and guys like Murray, so they need to shoot more.

If this team has any problem (outside of Malone and fit) it is that they pass too much, guys are not aggressive enough, and Murray, Harris, and Barton are the only ones willing to take the open shots.

[Powder Blue]

Gordon is one of the better one's on DS, he's not just a puff piece guy.

It's hard for me to buy into the notion that the Nuggets are paving the way for future success when they overpay a low impact player every off-season. They're not going to be able to go get better players in FA and they over-value all their kids in trade talks. The kids will get better sure, but once it's time to pay them we're going to have a tough time keeping them all AND building around them.

Yes the Nuggets need a go-to player, Look back at the Minnesota game. Their ceiling is limited until a current player grows into that or they get one.

You have to admit Millsap is not considered a low impact free agent. I presume you are referring to Plumlee here and I do have to agree he's over paid but I think they painted themselves into a corner with the terrible trade. We did need a backup Center and to not resign him would make that look even more disastrous than it really was. No one can overlook that we should have been able to get him a lot cheaper, but I feel his contract will expire when some of our core guys are ready for new contracts.

I was referring to Plumlee and Arthur before him, I have no issue with the Milsap acquisition or his contract, it's 2 years with a 3rd option....they should have structured Arthur's and Plumlee's the same.

[Powder Blue]

I like much of what he says. He usually provides some good observations, unlike some of the sycophants that bombard us with "Nuggets-speak". He's much nicer than I am in that he says the Nuggets have a plan. I just don't believe they do. Malone seems like a good coach for a 55 win team that already has everything in place.

He clearly believes Murray is the best shot at the Nuggets having a "closer" and I totally agree. I'm OK with waiting for the team to develop, but until Malone stops relying on his veterans, the youth is not going to develop as quickly. Fortunately, between front office roster moves and an injury, he doesn't have much choice except to rely on his young players - and they are starting to show exactly what they can do. I do believe they can hold a playoff spot until Millsap comes back, for the reasons given in this article.

Well worth the few minutes it took to read!

Be careful calling any of the local bloggers sycophants that bombard us with "Nugget-speak". I did that on Twitter and it didn't go over so well, lol.

[NuggetsWY]

I like much of what he says. He usually provides some good observations, unlike some of the sycophants that bombard us with "Nuggets-speak". He's much nicer than I am in that he says the Nuggets have a plan. I just don't believe they do. Malone seems like a good coach for a 55 win team that already has everything in place.

He clearly believes Murray is the best shot at the Nuggets having a "closer" and I totally agree. I'm OK with waiting for the team to develop, but until Malone stops relying on his veterans, the youth is not going to develop as quickly. Fortunately, between front office roster moves and an injury, he doesn't have much choice except to rely on his young players - and they are starting to show exactly what they can do. I do believe they can hold a playoff spot until Millsap comes back, for the reasons given in this article.

Well worth the few minutes it took to read!

Be careful calling any of the local bloggers sycophants that bombard us with "Nugget-speak". I did that on Twitter and it didn't go over so well, lol.

I'll bet some of them don't even know what that means. Then again, sometimes the truth hurts. I guess if they are a RealGM participant, I'd need to be more cautious. Remember this post when I become a famous blogger. I'll still use NuggetsWY even they make me give the name my momma gave me.

[skywalker33]

Just thinking about this "PLAN", seems to me that Malone has no regard for the plan. He continually mis-matches players without regards to their chemistry or skillset. He has no desire to play and develop our youth, doesn't play to Jokic's strengths.

Anyone else think Malone is the "flaw" in this plan ?

[Powder Blue]

Just thinking about this "PLAN", seems to me that Malone has no regard for the plan. He continually mis-matches players without regards to their chemistry or skillset. He has no desire to play and develop our youth, doesn't play to Jokic's strengths.

Anyone else think Malone is the "flaw" in this plan ?

Huge flaw...He trotted out the twin tower Nurkic/Jokic half the season last year only to see it fail, admit it failed and then adjust putting Jokic at C and the team/offense took off.

So what he does he do this year? Goes away from what worked and trotted out the dreadful twin tower Jokic/Plumlee combo for too many games, the exact same mistake he admitted to making last year. I get that Milsap got hurt but don't replace him with a post clogger like Plumlee while Jokic is on the floor.