Jamal Murray’s Career Shot Chart With Nikola Jokic On-Court Vs. Off the Court

[pmanzano]

The OP was interesting, but drawing conclusions that have been suggested doesn't make sense.

Do a comparison of Steph Curry & Klay Thompson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Lew Alcindor & Oscar Robertson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Magic Johnson & Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Larry Bird & Kevin McHale and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen and see what happens.

There are so many great players that have played together. They are not great because of the other player, they are great because of their work ethic (and talent). There is no doubt in my mind that any great player is better when playing with another great player. There are plenty of examples of great players that could not win without another great player.

Look at Charles Barkley's career; and Wilt Chamberlain's career; and Kevin Garnett's career; and even LeBron's career.

Great point!

Yeah, I mentioned this in the original post, but I first saw this conversation pop up on halftime: https://halftime.app.link/talk-ball. Lots of people there were asking for similar comparisons.

I concede, most of those charts might look similar (without having done the research yet). So I guess the better question is: are you still a superstar if you take that other person off the floor? I think a strong argument could probably be made for a lot of the people you listed when their #2 is gone.

Maybe it doesn’t matter because the fact is, Jok IS there, and this is just a hypothetical at this point.

Just thought it was really interesting and worth a discussion at the very least.

[The Rebel]

The OP was interesting, but drawing conclusions that have been suggested doesn't make sense.

Do a comparison of Steph Curry & Klay Thompson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Lew Alcindor & Oscar Robertson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Magic Johnson & Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Larry Bird & Kevin McHale and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen and see what happens.

There are so many great players that have played together. They are not great because of the other player, they are great because of their work ethic (and talent). There is no doubt in my mind that any great player is better when playing with another great player. There are plenty of examples of great players that could not win without another great player.

Look at Charles Barkley's career; and Wilt Chamberlain's career; and Kevin Garnett's career; and even LeBron's career.

Great point!

Yeah, I mentioned this in the original post, but I first saw this conversation pop up on halftime: https://halftime.app.link/talk-ball. Lots of people there were asking for similar comparisons.

I concede, most of those charts might look similar (without having done the research yet). So I guess the better question is: are you still a superstar if you take that other person off the floor? I think a strong argument could probably be made for a lot of the people you listed when their #2 is gone.

Maybe it doesn’t matter because the fact is, Jok IS there, and this is just a hypothetical at this point.

Just thought it was really interesting and worth a discussion at the very least.

I think you need to look at more than just 1 guy on the court and do years. Murray fell to 7th overall in the draft because he was viewed as needing a couple of years to develop before he became a star.

Last year there were 2 guys on the team that had a negative plus minus with Jokic on the court, Jokic is a great floor raiser so you do not see so many issues without Murray on the court and the entire team benefits from being on the court with Jokic.

What you do see with Murray on and Jokic off is that usually than means that Plumlee and Craig were on the court. This has historically lead to Murray facing a lot of double teams as nobody covers Craig at all and nobody covers Plumlee outside of the paint. I believe it as 18/19 where Murray was actually a better scorer with Jokic off the court than with Jokic on the court, and a lot of that was that Beasley and Juancho both were healthy and could spread the floor and they would run creating open shots and driving lanes.

You can also follow it this year, one reason many of us are so excited is that it does not look like we have anybody totally incompetent on offense in the rotation this year for the 1st time in years.

[pmanzano]

What you do see with Murray on and Jokic off is that usually than means that Plumlee and Craig were on the court. This has historically lead to Murray facing a lot of double teams as nobody covers Craig at all and nobody covers Plumlee outside of the paint. I believe it as 18/19 where Murray was actually a better scorer with Jokic off the court than with Jokic on the court, and a lot of that was that Beasley and Juancho both were healthy and could spread the floor and they would run creating open shots and driving lanes.

You can also follow it this year, one reason many of us are so excited is that it does not look like we have anybody totally incompetent on offense in the rotation this year for the 1st time in years.

This is such great context. Yeah, I can totally see that being the case with Plumlee and Craig on the floor with him. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that!

I'll definitely be watching much closer this year. Should be really fun seeing this offense run.

[THE J0KER]

The OP was interesting, but drawing conclusions that have been suggested doesn't make sense.

Do a comparison of Steph Curry & Klay Thompson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Lew Alcindor & Oscar Robertson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Magic Johnson & Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Larry Bird & Kevin McHale and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen and see what happens.

There are so many great players that have played together. They are not great because of the other player, they are great because of their work ethic (and talent). There is no doubt in my mind that any great player is better when playing with another great player. There are plenty of examples of great players that could not win without another great player.

Look at Charles Barkley's career; and Wilt Chamberlain's career; and Kevin Garnett's career; and even LeBron's career.

But be very careful when you piece together two 5-star superstars. Sometimes the result of 5+5 is 11 (a synergy case!) but sometimes 5+5 gives you just 8 (bad fit). Some superstars actually never proved their ability to be equally good as part of a team with ring-winning potential (Harden, Westbrook, Howard, Iverson, T-Mac, V-Carter...), while some others tend ability to always integrate all their best skills into every team you put them and Jokic already showed early signs that he is that type of player (James, Kawhi, Duncan...). Especially rare successful cases are when both superstars are positionally similar, so for example, Robinson-Duncan is so far the only super-successful two "bigs" superstar case. The reason why I last season more and more put Lakers over Clippers despite the Clippers are deeper team is not because Davis is clearly a better player than George but because Kawhi and George are basically both small forwards with the proven ability to cover 3 spots, but still, their natural/perfect position was pretty same. On the other hand James' basic position last season was actually PG with partly covering SF even SG, while Davis was PF partly C, so no conflict but a perfect condition for a good coach to maximize the impact of both.

[NuggetsWY]

The OP was interesting, but drawing conclusions that have been suggested doesn't make sense.

Do a comparison of Steph Curry & Klay Thompson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Lew Alcindor & Oscar Robertson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Magic Johnson & Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Larry Bird & Kevin McHale and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen and see what happens.

There are so many great players that have played together. They are not great because of the other player, they are great because of their work ethic (and talent). There is no doubt in my mind that any great player is better when playing with another great player. There are plenty of examples of great players that could not win without another great player.

Look at Charles Barkley's career; and Wilt Chamberlain's career; and Kevin Garnett's career; and even LeBron's career.

But be very careful when you piece together two 5-star superstars. Sometimes the result of 5+5 is 11 (a synergy case!) but sometimes 5+5 gives you just 8 (bad fit). Some superstars actually never proved their ability to be equally good as part of a team with ring-winning potential (Harden, Westbrook, Howard, Iverson, T-Mac, V-Carter...), while some others tend ability to always integrate all their best skills into every team you put them and Jokic already showed early signs that he is that type of player (James, Kawhi, Duncan...). Especially rare successful cases are when both superstars are positionally similar, so for example, Robinson-Duncan is so far the only super-successful two "bigs" superstar case. The reason why I last season more and more put Lakers over Clippers despite the Clippers are deeper team is not because Davis is clearly a better player than George but because Kawhi and George are basically both small forwards with the proven ability to cover 3 spots, but still, their natural/perfect position was pretty same. On the other hand James' basic position last season was actually PG with partly covering SF even SG, while Davis was PF partly C, so no conflict but a perfect condition for a good coach to maximize the impact of both.

Which is exactly what scares me about a Harden - Jokic teamup. The wrong superstar can actually detract from another superstar and I'm not talking about diminishing stats. I'm talking about diminishing wins.

[THE J0KER]

The OP was interesting, but drawing conclusions that have been suggested doesn't make sense.

Do a comparison of Steph Curry & Klay Thompson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Lew Alcindor & Oscar Robertson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Magic Johnson & Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Larry Bird & Kevin McHale and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen and see what happens.

There are so many great players that have played together. They are not great because of the other player, they are great because of their work ethic (and talent). There is no doubt in my mind that any great player is better when playing with another great player. There are plenty of examples of great players that could not win without another great player.

Look at Charles Barkley's career; and Wilt Chamberlain's career; and Kevin Garnett's career; and even LeBron's career.

But be very careful when you piece together two 5-star superstars. Sometimes the result of 5+5 is 11 (a synergy case!) but sometimes 5+5 gives you just 8 (bad fit). Some superstars actually never proved their ability to be equally good as part of a team with ring-winning potential (Harden, Westbrook, Howard, Iverson, T-Mac, V-Carter...), while some others tend ability to always integrate all their best skills into every team you put them and Jokic already showed early signs that he is that type of player (James, Kawhi, Duncan...). Especially rare successful cases are when both superstars are positionally similar, so for example, Robinson-Duncan is so far the only super-successful two "bigs" superstar case. The reason why I last season more and more put Lakers over Clippers despite the Clippers are deeper team is not because Davis is clearly a better player than George but because Kawhi and George are basically both small forwards with the proven ability to cover 3 spots, but still, their natural/perfect position was pretty same. On the other hand James' basic position last season was actually PG with partly covering SF even SG, while Davis was PF partly C, so no conflict but a perfect condition for a good coach to maximize the impact of both.

Which is exactly what scares me about a Harden - Jokic teamup. The wrong superstar can actually detract from another superstar and I'm not talking about diminishing stats. I'm talking about diminishing wins.

On paper Harden looks like the perfect offensive player to build a superteam, an all-around player with high TS%. But in reality, together with his obvious lack of good defense, the problem is that his regular-season high TS% is mostly not that high in a playoff where tougher defense is allowed so he gets fewer FT attempts and less non-contested 3pt shots, so in the last 5 seasons, his 3p% traditionally down in playoff from about 36% good to not good 33% while fewer points coming from the line. His good rebounding for a guard is also not that good because he just played so often small-ball, and his assists in so big part are just a product of attacking plan-B where he put himself in a bad position to shoot. So all Harden's monster numbers are pumped, but he is still a great player, a true (super)star. D'Antoni correctly noted that Harden needs around another elite passer and several 3&D specialists, but two point-guard superstars and overdosed small-ball strategy is not a winning NBA formula for sure. That said, I think the 2018 Houston deserved the title when Harden-CP3 chemistry was high, Gordon has the best season and Capela was the decent center, because the real champions that year GSW superteam (two MVP contenders with the other two all-stars) should not exists anyway.

I think the perfect fit for Harden is good passers but not point guards, so Jokic (Adebayo, Sabonis...) is maybe the perfect fit for him, and personally, I think Embiid, a two-way center, will be a better solution for him as a teammate than Irving and Durant.