Nuggets Trades

[The Rebel]

Not only there but there are other sources throwing out similar trade ideas. It's always about MPJ as well. In fact without MPJ I doubt anyone would think of Denver in such trade talks. Where there is smoke there is usually fire, as the saying goes. I'm increasing convinced that Houston will get more desperate to trade Harden. I am not convinced that Denver wants to give up MPJ.

Well, where do you think these rumors are coming from, Denver or Houston ?? I'd bet HOU trying to increase other offers for Harden, much like we did when trying to trade Carmelo. I really don't see a good fit for Harden here in Denver but we're one of the few contenders with the assets to put in a trade for him. Kroenke has already rebuffed moving Porter Jr LAST YEAR for much better fits in Beal and Holiday, why would he do it for a selfish ISO player who would diminish Jokic's impact for a potential superstar like MPJ ??

It could well be Houston drumming up the market. Yet, the point about MPJ follows some obvious logic. What teams have some young talent that if you were the GM of the Rockets you would target? Where else do you find such a return? GM's around the league have scouts everywhere and know that MPJ is a top prospect so its easy to see trade ideas develop (despite Kroenke's warning).

On the flip side, we have to wonder if giving up MPJ would be the equivalent of OKC giving up Harden to begin with.

I suppose that the FO is thinking about all the possibilities but will hopefully stay with the plan and keep the team they have now. At the same time, I am reasonably certain that Harden will pressure Rocket's management to make a trade likely to Brooklyn.

I am 99% sure it is the Rockets trying to drive up the price for Harden. That is why they forced Harden to expand his list and why Simmons, Murray, and MPJ keep getting floated. Truth is that Connelly has chased all the big names since he has gotten here, so in a way it would fit with what we have tried to do over the years.

However at the deadline and even before the Jrue Holiday trade to the Bucks you kept hearing how the front office wanted Beal or Holiday because they felt they were the perfect fit for our system and with Jokic. Which tells me that the front office realizes that just throwing a bunch of talent on the court and hoping the coach and team figure it out is a recipe for disaster. If we are being honest that is how the Rockets ended up here and how the 76ers ended up with their mess it is not a smart way to build a team. I have never once seen it work, stars have to fit together to win, and I hope that Connelly and company have figured that out.

[NuggetsWY]

Spoiler:

Sorry all that says to me, is that you think Brown is the better player so you win. Sorry but I disagree, and I have a basis in my disagreement. So lets talk about this.

Of course you can find stats that love Boban, he is great for 15 mpg against backup Centers. That is where actually watching the games and understanding the roles come in. Brown and Barton play very similar roles, wouldn't you say? I watch about 20 Celtics games a year and have for a long time, but maybe I missed something in those other 60 games.

So tell me were I am wrong they are both 3rd options on teams with 2 ball dominate players, a former all star as a 4th option, and a defensive specialist on the court with them most of the time. They both are their team's 2nd best perimeter defender, and both are asked to guard larger SFs and spread 4s due to team rotations and their abilities. The even both play 33-34 mpg. I think advanced stats could pretty clearly show you why Barton is the better player, despite the fact that Barton is the one playing in a system that does not suit his strengths.

As for Serbian Bias, I think it is pretty clear you have a Serbian bias, against Nuggets players that aren't Serbian. It is odd to me how every Nuggets player is worthless, except Jokic. It wasn't that long ago you were even running down Murray. the NBA is a team game, and while we all love Jokic, he is not out there doing it alone. He is surrounded by good players, you just either don't watch other team's or watch highlights, because if you did you would know why Brown is not better than Barton.

Brown's 2020 basic stats are 20-6-2 (58%TS%) while Barton's 15-6-4 (55%TS%), with young Brown improving his numbers in a playoff to 22-8-2 (59%TS%) while Barton previous playoff underperformed badly (9-5-2 43%TS%) without playing this year. To put Barton over Brown despite such clear differences maybe have some sense if Denver was a much better team than Boston, Barton is much younger than Brown, or if Barton was a much better fit for his team system which makes his teammates better (unlike Brown), but we all know neither of that is true. If you really think that I hate Denver players (except Jokic, but only because he is Serbian) I really don't know what to say. But the truth is that in the "trade ideas" thread I always thinking about that other side of the deal because the other team for sure will not make a deal just to make Nuggets better.

BTW you messed me with someone here because since 2017 Murray was my ultimate #2 Nuggets option (and not because of my love for Canada), just like I already last season reserved a 3rd star slot for Porter. If there was a player I complained about the most it was... well... Will Barton, but also I have no problems to complain about some Malone decisions, Millsap and Plumlee former contracts, Harris offense, even Murray (in terms of consistency), and Jokic too... because of from my point of view being a fan of some team include (not exclude) to not be blind about some bad things.

Also, you can't compare as an equal success and achievement if someone is the #2 defensive option in the TOP3 defensive team (#2 in playoff) with the team with mediocre DEFRTG. Also, Denver in 2020 was the team with one superstar, one star, and a deep 12-man roster, while Boston was all about Big5 (Tatum, Kemba, Brown, Hayward, Smart) with useful Theis and the rest of the roster close to a garbage value. So being TOP3 in such Boston team and being fake #3 (only because of playing time) in 2020 Denver where 3-7 players are pretty equal is not comparable things. Barton played 33mpg while Grant, Millsap, and Porter 25 or less, and only that makes difference in Barton's favor. Actually, 22y Malik Beasley based on his 47%40%85% 2019 numbers should take playing time advantage over Barton since the start of last season, but Malone blacklisted him instead, so he lost confidence (+extension issue) and drop his numbers, but soon after the Minnesota trade, he proved that he too is probably already not worse than Barton. And don't forget Gary Harris which stats are very corrupted, but unlike Barton, he is a perfect fit for the current Denver game system, and his defense is on the next level (he deserves at least once in the past two years to be a member of the all-defensive NBA 2nd team IMO).

There are things you are still missing.

Defensive rating, do you realize that Barton and Brown have the same defensive rating despite Brown being on the better defensive team? Brown and Barton are actually very close on defense, they are close on spot up shooting, rebounding, and finishing at the rim. Fact is you could plug Barton or Brown into Barton's role on the Nuggets and there would be little change. There is 1 big reason that Barton is the better player right now though.

It comes down to his ability to create for himself and others. While it drives all of us crazy because he is a bad fit for our system, for a vast majority of teams in the league they desperately need someone that can create for himself and others. Barton is clearly better than Brown at both. Barton scores more at a higher percentage on shots he creates than Brown and has 1.5 more assists per game despite only 5% more touches a game.

That is not to say that Brown will not develop it into his game, most expect he will and he is young so I wouldn't doubt it. But if we are asking who is going to be the better player on a team that needs ball handling and shot creators, that is easily Barton right now.

You may be right on me thinking you were someone else from a few years ago, so I apologize for that.

Comparing Brown & Barton's defense is difficult. As you point out, Brown was on a better defensive team. That can drive better advanced metrics however, could it not also mean that Brown had fewer opportunities to make steals, blocks, etc?

The reason I would prefer Brown over Barton, by a large margin, is that his style of play would seem to fit with Denver's team better than Barton's fit. His individual defense seems better but his team defense is definitely better IMO. His offense is certainly more team oriented and yet he can still score one-on-one against most players.

To acquire Brown and add him to Jokic, Murray, Porter; I would be willing to overpay at least a little bit. Let's say either Morris or Dozier plus either Harris or Barton and one 1st round pick (maybe two 1st round picks). Backup SGs & PGs are relatively easy to acquire but a starting rotation of Jokic, any PF, Porter, Brown, Murray would be very nice and hopefully they could play together for at least 6-10 years. Something to think about.

All of that with my belief that Boston wouldn't be interested in such a trade.

[skywalker33]

Spoiler:

Brown's 2020 basic stats are 20-6-2 (58%TS%) while Barton's 15-6-4 (55%TS%), with young Brown improving his numbers in a playoff to 22-8-2 (59%TS%) while Barton previous playoff underperformed badly (9-5-2 43%TS%) without playing this year. To put Barton over Brown despite such clear differences maybe have some sense if Denver was a much better team than Boston, Barton is much younger than Brown, or if Barton was a much better fit for his team system which makes his teammates better (unlike Brown), but we all know neither of that is true. If you really think that I hate Denver players (except Jokic, but only because he is Serbian) I really don't know what to say. But the truth is that in the "trade ideas" thread I always thinking about that other side of the deal because the other team for sure will not make a deal just to make Nuggets better.

BTW you messed me with someone here because since 2017 Murray was my ultimate #2 Nuggets option (and not because of my love for Canada), just like I already last season reserved a 3rd star slot for Porter. If there was a player I complained about the most it was... well... Will Barton, but also I have no problems to complain about some Malone decisions, Millsap and Plumlee former contracts, Harris offense, even Murray (in terms of consistency), and Jokic too... because of from my point of view being a fan of some team include (not exclude) to not be blind about some bad things.

Also, you can't compare as an equal success and achievement if someone is the #2 defensive option in the TOP3 defensive team (#2 in playoff) with the team with mediocre DEFRTG. Also, Denver in 2020 was the team with one superstar, one star, and a deep 12-man roster, while Boston was all about Big5 (Tatum, Kemba, Brown, Hayward, Smart) with useful Theis and the rest of the roster close to a garbage value. So being TOP3 in such Boston team and being fake #3 (only because of playing time) in 2020 Denver where 3-7 players are pretty equal is not comparable things. Barton played 33mpg while Grant, Millsap, and Porter 25 or less, and only that makes difference in Barton's favor. Actually, 22y Malik Beasley based on his 47%40%85% 2019 numbers should take playing time advantage over Barton since the start of last season, but Malone blacklisted him instead, so he lost confidence (+extension issue) and drop his numbers, but soon after the Minnesota trade, he proved that he too is probably already not worse than Barton. And don't forget Gary Harris which stats are very corrupted, but unlike Barton, he is a perfect fit for the current Denver game system, and his defense is on the next level (he deserves at least once in the past two years to be a member of the all-defensive NBA 2nd team IMO).

There are things you are still missing.

Defensive rating, do you realize that Barton and Brown have the same defensive rating despite Brown being on the better defensive team? Brown and Barton are actually very close on defense, they are close on spot up shooting, rebounding, and finishing at the rim. Fact is you could plug Barton or Brown into Barton's role on the Nuggets and there would be little change. There is 1 big reason that Barton is the better player right now though.

It comes down to his ability to create for himself and others. While it drives all of us crazy because he is a bad fit for our system, for a vast majority of teams in the league they desperately need someone that can create for himself and others. Barton is clearly better than Brown at both. Barton scores more at a higher percentage on shots he creates than Brown and has 1.5 more assists per game despite only 5% more touches a game.

That is not to say that Brown will not develop it into his game, most expect he will and he is young so I wouldn't doubt it. But if we are asking who is going to be the better player on a team that needs ball handling and shot creators, that is easily Barton right now.

You may be right on me thinking you were someone else from a few years ago, so I apologize for that.

Comparing Brown & Barton's defense is difficult. As you point out, Brown was on a better defensive team. That can drive better advanced metrics however, could it not also mean that Brown had fewer opportunities to make steals, blocks, etc?

The reason I would prefer Brown over Barton, by a large margin, is that his style of play would seem to fit with Denver's team better than Barton's fit. His individual defense seems better but his team defense is definitely better IMO. His offense is certainly more team oriented and yet he can still score one-on-one against most players.

To acquire Brown and add him to Jokic, Murray, Porter; I would be willing to overpay at least a little bit. Let's say either Morris or Dozier plus either Harris or Barton and one 1st round pick (maybe two 1st round picks). Backup SGs & PGs are relatively easy to acquire but a starting rotation of Jokic, any PF, Porter, Brown, Murray would be very nice and hopefully they could play together for at least 6-10 years. Something to think about.

All of that with my belief that Boston wouldn't be interested in such a trade.

For that price I'd rather just hold out for Beal

[THE J0KER]

...
To acquire Brown and add him to Jokic, Murray, Porter; I would be willing to overpay at least a little bit. Let's say either Morris or Dozier plus either Harris or Barton and one 1st round pick (maybe two 1st round picks). Backup SGs & PGs are relatively easy to acquire but a starting rotation of Jokic, any PF, Porter, Brown, Murray would be very nice and hopefully they could play together for at least 6-10 years. Something to think about.

All of that with my belief that Boston wouldn't be interested in such a trade.

For that price I'd rather just hold out for Beal

If 31-4-6-58%ts Beal-2020 price was really Barton+Morris+Dozier+FRP then Tim Connelly and the whole Nuggets front office should be fired already after the 2020 trade deadline because they missed the historic opportunity with such a deal to bring to Denver 1st ever NBA title! No way the Lakers in the bubble would stop Murray-Beal-Porter-Grant-Jokic (Harris, Millsap, Plumlee bench) in WCF (others we can beat even without Beal)!

I agree with what NuggetsWY said (in his whole post, not just in this quoted part) except the "overpay" statement. I don't think (Barton or Harris)+Morris+Dozier+FRP will be overpaying for Brown. Trades are more about the impact on future team's result than about the sum of involved players' values. After such a deal Denver will be a bigger title contender than before while Boston's chances would decline after that trade despite their depth and bench will significantly improve. So why call something "overpay" if that makes your team instantly more competitive?

Personally, I can't see how we can get before trade-deadline Brown or at least Smart from Celtics in a direct deal around Barton or/and Harris. Two players who are the most interesting for Celtics (apart from locked BIG3) can't be traded this season (Bol Bol and Millsap). So, I can't see Boston's motivation to broke the proven Kemba-Smart-Brown-Tatum line without taking some notable big men (PF/C), which is their clearly biggest weakness 2nd season in the row.

[skywalker33]

I never said THAT was the price for Beal, I said if that was the asking price for Brown, I'd rather just wait on Beal becoming available then making an offer for Beal. While Brown would fit nicely, I don't see his value that high (yet), he's been too inconsistent for that value.

[TGW]

If Beal were to get traded to Denver, the package starts with Porter and a first. Anything less is probably getting rejected....just sayin.

[Mickey8]

And if Washington wants that, Denver should go for it.

[skywalker33]

Beal might be one of the few players I'd put MPJ in, he seems to be what we want/need here. He's only 27 but that contract is a bit of a detriment IMO.

[THE J0KER]

For me Beal is not trade option anymore. Since Washington gets Westbrook they are again competitive playoff contender.

If we ignore Harden's case, the best available guards for trades right now are LaVine and Hield.

[skywalker33]

For me Beal is not trade option anymore. Since Washington gets Westbrook they are again competitive playoff contender.

If we ignore Harden's case, the best available guards for trades right now are LaVine and Hield.

So only Hield then ?? Wouldn't want the other two and I'm a little precarious of Hield as well

[The Rebel]

If Beal were to get traded to Denver, the package starts with Porter and a first. Anything less is probably getting rejected....just sayin.

If MPJ has that much value maybe we will just wait, if Giannis doesn't sign his extension he and Jrue may both be available for the right deal. We need a PF.

[The Rebel]

For me Beal is not trade option anymore. Since Washington gets Westbrook they are again competitive playoff contender.

If we ignore Harden's case, the best available guards for trades right now are LaVine and Hield.

So only Hield then ?? Wouldn't want the other two and I'm a little precarious of Hield as well

Patience, we need patience. We are set up perfectly for a much bigger name.

[THE J0KER]

If Barton ultimately wants out, and we know Washington is now in a "winning now" mode, this deal seems interesting to me:

Will Barton and Vlatko Cancar for Troy Brown jr and Mo Wagner.

TBJ have flashes of future very good two-way player and Mo will be potentiality better back-up C option than Hartenstein and overall more useful than Cancar. Both are under rookie contract so our position at 2021 FA Summer market will be better.

[The Rebel]

If Barton ultimately wants out, and we know Washington is now in a "winning now" mode, this deal seems interesting to me:

Will Barton and Vlatko Cancar for Troy Brown jr and Mo Wagner.

TBJ have flashes of future very good two-way player and Mo will be potentiality better back-up C option than Hartenstein and overall more useful than Cancar. Both are under rookie contract so our position at 2021 FA Summer market will be better.

I could see that working for both sides.

[The Rebel]

Millsap has to agree to be traded because he loses his bird rights, but he does make his summer home and owns a Gym in Atlanta so it would be sending him home.

Atlanta in MPJ, Bol, Barton and Millsap for Collins, Hunter, Snell

While the Bucks are reportedly waiting on Giannis to sign his max deal, the Hawks still have not extended John Collins. They appear to want to win now and build around Trae Young but they seem to not want to pay Collins. They are also higher on Reddish and Huerter than Hunter. if they lose Collins will need a young PF more than a 4th wing would you guys be willing to give them one of YOung's best friends from when they were kids?


San Antonio trades Gay for Snell and a future 2nd

The Spurs are not going anywhere this year, so this gives them a future asset for Gay who is at the end of his career and would probably love 1 last run on a great team.

Denver trades Porter Jr, Bol, Barton, Millsap, and a future 2nd for Collins, Hunter, and Gay.



We need a quality starting PF, and Collins is good on offense and a slightly positive help defender and good man to man defender. We downgrade from Barton to Gay, and MPJ to Hunter, but overall I think we end up better off. Hunter is a lower ceiling player than MPJ, but he is already a positive defender and a great long term fit as the 3rd star type that we need with Jokic and Murray. Gay is the veteran SF that can come in and defend guys like Lebron and Kawhi, and then when teams go small we can play Dozier at SF. It also allows Green to compete for more minutes at backup C, opening up backup PF for Nnaji if he outplays Hartenstein.

Murray/ Morris/ Howard
Harris/ Campazzo/ Hampton
Hunter/ Dozier/ Gay
Collins/ Green/ NNaji
Jokic/ Hartenstein.

[Mickey8]

Collins wont put this team over , you make trades that gives Jokic and Murray legit chance to wins it all and they are one superstar or the star away to be the top two or three favorite to win the title.

[THE J0KER]

Atlanta in MPJ, Bol, Barton and Millsap for Collins, Hunter, Snell

In normal circumstances, this would be a bad deal for Denver, I see only Porter as a future all-star in this group. But I'm afraid that Bol's destiny in Malone's Denver if we not trade him on time will be similar to Nurkic, Beasley, Juancho cases. We will develop him into a good player, never using his full potential and losing him for nothing at the end. Barton's case is the opposite, he can get a chance and minutes from Malone but as a bad fit for Jokic-system, he will never reach his potential here. Millsap declining year by year so no guarantee he will be still 10M worthy next season at 37. The good thing about trading Porter to Atlanta is because Porter is Trae Young good friend, so like in the Minnesota-Angelo-Towns case

But after such a trade starters around Jokic and Murray will not support enough theirs offensive creativity, and the team will suddenly miss good 3-point shooters. So together with Millsap and Bol, another player should not use the no-trade clause, Bogdan Bogdanovic! It is no secret that he actually wanted this season to join title contenders Bucks or Lakers, so he would join Nuggets as title contender even without "Serbian Connection" with Jokic. So here is my correction of the deal which will work better:

Denver trades Porter Jr, Bol, Harris, Barton, Millsap, and Dozier for Atlanta's Collins, Hunter, Bogdanovic, and Huerter.

But note that Bogdan's contract is 72/4 while Collins and Hunter's new deal will be at least the same (with Huerter around 10M per year). So this deal makes sense only if Kroenke agrees to jump into luxury tax territory for the NBA ring's sake in the next few years.

[Richard Miller]

Denver trades Porter Jr, Bol, Harris, Barton, Millsap, and Dozier for Atlanta's Collins, Hunter, Bogdanovic, and Huerter.

But note that Bogdan's contract is 72/4 while Collins and Hunter's new deal will be at least the same (with Huerter around 10M per year). So this deal makes sense only if Kroenke agrees to jump into luxury tax territory for the NBA ring's sake in the next few years.

The Nuggets already have 7 new guys (at least 3 will be getting regular minutes) and they should get 4 more? Malone would get a heart attack That would pretty much deconstruct everything they were building for the last few years since basically only Jokic/Murray/Morris would remain. I'd say 0 chance of happening.

[Mickey8]

Those Atlanta players wouldn't improve Denver's team, they are all overrated , they wont make Denver the top contender , its better to keep the team you have and bet on the youth if you wont trade for another superstar, you need another all star so you can get favorable calls in the play offs, those Atlanta guys have little or zero reputation with Silvers refs. I think Denver front office will waste Jokic and Murray's era if they don't add another big time player , but ok lets see what they do in the next year or two, unless Denver makes a huge leap this year and they win the title with the current roster.

[The Rebel]

Collins wont put this team over , you make trades that gives Jokic and Murray legit chance to wins it all and they are one superstar or the star away to be the top two or three favorite to win the title.

I think if Collins was on a team like the Clippers or the Lakers he would be considered a huge star, he is a 21 and 10 PF that shot 40% from 3 last year with good defense.

I also think Hunter has the chance to grow into our 3rd star within a year. He was a good defender and shot 38% on spot up 3s as a rookie last year.

If you look into their defensive stats it is actually kind of crazy that anybody that started with the Hawks had a positive on defense last year with Trae Young grading out as one of the worst defenders in the league. Both Hunter and Collins were positives on defense.


I also do not think we truly need a superstar, in fact I would argue that a true superstar would create more problems than they would fix. Jokic and Murray have already shown they can score in bunches when needed, even against teams sending 4 guys to cover them at a time. More importantly they are both among the top 5 in clutch scoring, who would you rather have taking the shot when the game is on the line than those 2? I think we need guys who can shoot and play defense.