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Nuggets Trades

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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1061 » by Richard Miller » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:05 am

THE J0KER wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
The sat Faried and Arthur when they decided that they were not a fit with what Malone wanted, and everybody knew that Faried would be a problem when they did it. So I don't think that the money will be that strong of a factor.


Yea, but Faried was signed before Malone came and before 'Jokic era', so that's not really the same situation. At this point I'd expect they know exactly what they are getting from Millsap and why did they sign him.
I'm pretty sure Nuggets didn't want to re-sign Millsap this season. He becomes a late plan-B option after Jeramy Grant declined Nuggets' offer and signed with the Pistons.


Nah, to me that doesn't make sense, if that was the general sentiment during the season (i.e. that he's not going to be resigned), he would've started exploring other options much sooner/packing his family to move out, wouldn't be just sitting and waiting for an offer until late. Jerami being gone likely gave him more leverage, perhaps he wouldn't get 10 mil, but I think they were definitely trying to keep him.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1062 » by THE J0KER » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:12 am

@The Rebel

Do we really need some extra proofs about Malone's blindness and stubbornness when it comes to giving minutes and chances to young rookies no matter how they talented are or in most extreme cases even when they are already better than anyone else playing on their position?

Nikola Jokic was drafted as #41 and in his rookie year played 21.7 mpg and being chosen in all-rookie 1st team... but... Nikola Jokic was drafted in 2014 when he was almost no-name even in Serbia, but he comes to the NBA year later in 2015 as the youngest regional (ex-Yugoslavia) ABA league MVP! We all know that story of how Mike Miller was shocked about Jokic's skills since very first played with him (it is not that easy to impress a former LBJ-Wade teammate). But more importantly, the only other talented center Nurkic was shut-down for the season after just 30 games, mediocre JJ Hickson played only 20 games (traded to WAS), Darrell Arthur who the whole career played as PF that particular season more played as a center because Malone doesn't trust enough in young Jokic and Nurkic. Nikola Jokic with 21.7 was that season #9 player by playing time, but already the best in "per 36 minutes" stats (17-12-4 TS%58%). If (probably) future HoF Jokic in the lottery-team Nuggets without any other notable center (especially since Nurkic injury) get from Malone under 22 minutes, how many minutes you expecting to see for this season FC rookie Nnaji playing for Denver contender team?

Porter was already in his rookie year our 3rd best player "per 36 minutes" last season, but he gets only 16mpg from Malone despite competing for SF and PF minutes with starters undersized-SF Barton and aging PF-Millsap. Porter was also TOP3 rookie last season "per-36 minutes" and via "eye-test", but not even participate in Rookies/Sophomores ASG for USA team, or was not member even of 2nd all-rookie team in 2020, thanks to miserable playing time. So if (probably) future all-star Porter gets just 16mpg how many minutes you expecting this season forward rookie Bol Bol will get from Malone?

In the 2016-17 season, Denver has three new exciting rookies in Murray, Juancho, and Beasley. Beasley barely played (22 games) and when getting a chance played just garbage 7.5 minutes, Juancho his first two years competing mostly with badly declining Chandler but still get only 13 and 11 minutes, but most interesting is the case of #7 pick that year Jamal Murray who competing for PG minutes with NBA worst PG starter that season Muddiay and 35y old aging veteran Nelson. During the middle of the season, Muddiay lost his spot in the team and barely played, but Murray gets only 21.5 mpg despite his ability as combo-guard to play on SG too. If (probably) future all-star Murray in such perfect circumstances for him gets only 21 mpg how many minutes you expecting to see for PG Hampton this season?

The cases of Craig and Campazzo which both debuted in the NBA as very experienced international players have nothing with this. Also, Monte Morris in his real rookie year gets only 3 games, the rest spent in the G-League, and in his sophomore season when he is already 23y old he would never get from Malone 24mpg if veteran Isaiah Thomas episode didn't turn into a disaster.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1063 » by skywalker33 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:25 am

THE J0KER wrote:@The Rebel

Do we really need some extra proofs about Malone's blindness and stubbornness when it comes to giving minutes and chances to young rookies no matter how they talented are or in most extreme cases even when they are already better than anyone else playing on their position?

Nikola Jokic was drafted as #41 and in his rookie year played 21.7 mpg and being chosen in all-rookie 1st team... but... Nikola Jokic was drafted in 2014 when he was almost no-name even in Serbia, but he comes to the NBA year later in 2015 as the youngest regional (ex-Yugoslavia) ABA league MVP! We all know that story of how Mike Miller was shocked about Jokic's skills since very first played with him (it is not that easy to impress a former LBJ-Wade teammate). But more importantly, the only other talented center Nurkic was shut-down for the season after just 30 games, mediocre JJ Hickson played only 20 games (traded to WAS), Darrell Arthur who the whole career played as PF that particular season more played as a center because Malone doesn't trust enough in young Jokic and Nurkic. Nikola Jokic with 21.7 was that season #9 player by playing time, but already the best in "per 36 minutes" stats (17-12-4 TS%58%). If (probably) future HoF Jokic in the lottery-team Nuggets without any other notable center (especially since Nurkic injury) get from Malone under 22 minutes, how many minutes you expecting to see for this season FC rookie Nnaji playing for Denver contender team?

Porter was already in his rookie year our 3rd best player "per 36 minutes" last season, but he gets only 16mpg from Malone despite competing for SF and PF minutes with starters undersized-SF Barton and aging PF-Millsap. Porter was also TOP3 rookie last season "per-36 minutes" and via "eye-test", but not even participate in Rookies/Sophomores ASG for USA team, or was not member even of 2nd all-rookie team in 2020, thanks to miserable playing time. So if (probably) future all-star Porter gets just 16mpg how many minutes you expecting this season forward rookie Bol Bol will get from Malone?

In the 2016-17 season, Denver has three new exciting rookies in Murray, Juancho, and Beasley. Beasley barely played (22 games) and when getting a chance played just garbage 7.5 minutes, Juancho his first two years competing mostly with badly declining Chandler but still get only 13 and 11 minutes, but most interesting is the case of #7 pick that year Jamal Murray who competing for PG minutes with NBA worst PG starter that season Muddiay and 35y old aging veteran Nelson. During the middle of the season, Muddiay lost his spot in the team and barely played, but Murray gets only 21.5 mpg despite his ability as combo-guard to play on SG too. If (probably) future all-star Murray in such perfect circumstances for him gets only 21 mpg how many minutes you expecting to see for PG Hampton this season?

The cases of Craig and Campazzo which both debuted in the NBA as very experienced international players have nothing with this. Also, Monte Morris in his real rookie year gets only 3 games, the rest spent in the G-League, and in his sophomore season when he is already 23y old he would never get from Malone 24mpg if veteran Isaiah Thomas episode didn't turn into a disaster.


This isn't going to end well....AGAIN !!!!! I thought Rebel laid it out very well, and I agree with his supposition that Malone doesn't have BIAS against rookies, he plays the players who give him the best shot to win. Bol and MPJ, both the subject of the proposed Mod-ire, needed to regain as much health prior to court time, giving them both time to heal. Waiting to get both more NBA ready has turned out well for the Nuggets IMO.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1064 » by The Rebel » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:45 am

THE J0KER wrote:@The Rebel

Do we really need some extra proofs about Malone's blindness and stubbornness when it comes to giving minutes and chances to young rookies no matter how they talented are or in most extreme cases even when they are already better than anyone else playing on their position?

Nikola Jokic was drafted as #41 and in his rookie year played 21.7 mpg and being chosen in all-rookie 1st team... but... Nikola Jokic was drafted in 2014 when he was almost no-name even in Serbia, but he comes to the NBA year later in 2015 as the youngest regional (ex-Yugoslavia) ABA league MVP! We all know that story of how Mike Miller was shocked about Jokic's skills since very first played with him (it is not that easy to impress a former LBJ-Wade teammate). But more importantly, the only other talented center Nurkic was shut-down for the season after just 30 games, mediocre JJ Hickson played only 20 games (traded to WAS), Darrell Arthur who the whole career played as PF that particular season more played as a center because Malone doesn't trust enough in young Jokic and Nurkic. Nikola Jokic with 21.7 was that season #9 player by playing time, but already the best in "per 36 minutes" stats (17-12-4 TS%58%). If (probably) future HoF Jokic in the lottery-team Nuggets without any other notable center (especially since Nurkic injury) get from Malone under 22 minutes, how many minutes you expecting to see for this season FC rookie Nnaji playing for Denver contender team?

Porter was already in his rookie year our 3rd best player "per 36 minutes" last season, but he gets only 16mpg from Malone despite competing for SF and PF minutes with starters undersized-SF Barton and aging PF-Millsap. Porter was also TOP3 rookie last season "per-36 minutes" and via "eye-test", but not even participate in Rookies/Sophomores ASG for USA team, or was not member even of 2nd all-rookie team in 2020, thanks to miserable playing time. So if (probably) future all-star Porter gets just 16mpg how many minutes you expecting this season forward rookie Bol Bol will get from Malone?

In the 2016-17 season, Denver has three new exciting rookies in Murray, Juancho, and Beasley. Beasley barely played (22 games) and when getting a chance played just garbage 7.5 minutes, Juancho his first two years competing mostly with badly declining Chandler but still get only 13 and 11 minutes, but most interesting is the case of #7 pick that year Jamal Murray who competing for PG minutes with NBA worst PG starter that season Muddiay and 35y old aging veteran Nelson. During the middle of the season, Muddiay lost his spot in the team and barely played, but Murray gets only 21.5 mpg despite his ability as combo-guard to play on SG too. If (probably) future all-star Murray in such perfect circumstances for him gets only 21 mpg how many minutes you expecting to see for PG Hampton this season?

The cases of Craig and Campazzo which both debuted in the NBA as very experienced international players have nothing with this. Also, Monte Morris in his real rookie year gets only 3 games, the rest spent in the G-League, and in his sophomore season when he is already 23y old he would never get from Malone 24mpg if veteran Isaiah Thomas episode didn't turn into a disaster.


I laid out all the young guys that Malone played above in this thread. I also posted that the Nuggets are the 2nd youngest team in NBA history to make the conference finals, both in average age and average age weighted by minutes played. Arguing that he does not play young players or rookies says more about you than it does about Malone. 1 coach in 73 years of the NBA has existed played younger players and had the same success that Malone has had. That is a fact and there is no way to argue that.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1065 » by THE J0KER » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:06 am

skywalker33 wrote:
Spoiler:
THE J0KER wrote:@The Rebel

Do we really need some extra proofs about Malone's blindness and stubbornness when it comes to giving minutes and chances to young rookies no matter how they talented are or in most extreme cases even when they are already better than anyone else playing on their position?

Nikola Jokic was drafted as #41 and in his rookie year played 21.7 mpg and being chosen in all-rookie 1st team... but... Nikola Jokic was drafted in 2014 when he was almost no-name even in Serbia, but he comes to the NBA year later in 2015 as the youngest regional (ex-Yugoslavia) ABA league MVP! We all know that story of how Mike Miller was shocked about Jokic's skills since very first played with him (it is not that easy to impress a former LBJ-Wade teammate). But more importantly, the only other talented center Nurkic was shut-down for the season after just 30 games, mediocre JJ Hickson played only 20 games (traded to WAS), Darrell Arthur who the whole career played as PF that particular season more played as a center because Malone doesn't trust enough in young Jokic and Nurkic. Nikola Jokic with 21.7 was that season #9 player by playing time, but already the best in "per 36 minutes" stats (17-12-4 TS%58%). If (probably) future HoF Jokic in the lottery-team Nuggets without any other notable center (especially since Nurkic injury) get from Malone under 22 minutes, how many minutes you expecting to see for this season FC rookie Nnaji playing for Denver contender team?

Porter was already in his rookie year our 3rd best player "per 36 minutes" last season, but he gets only 16mpg from Malone despite competing for SF and PF minutes with starters undersized-SF Barton and aging PF-Millsap. Porter was also TOP3 rookie last season "per-36 minutes" and via "eye-test", but not even participate in Rookies/Sophomores ASG for USA team, or was not member even of 2nd all-rookie team in 2020, thanks to miserable playing time. So if (probably) future all-star Porter gets just 16mpg how many minutes you expecting this season forward rookie Bol Bol will get from Malone?

In the 2016-17 season, Denver has three new exciting rookies in Murray, Juancho, and Beasley. Beasley barely played (22 games) and when getting a chance played just garbage 7.5 minutes, Juancho his first two years competing mostly with badly declining Chandler but still get only 13 and 11 minutes, but most interesting is the case of #7 pick that year Jamal Murray who competing for PG minutes with NBA worst PG starter that season Muddiay and 35y old aging veteran Nelson. During the middle of the season, Muddiay lost his spot in the team and barely played, but Murray gets only 21.5 mpg despite his ability as combo-guard to play on SG too. If (probably) future all-star Murray in such perfect circumstances for him gets only 21 mpg how many minutes you expecting to see for PG Hampton this season?

The cases of Craig and Campazzo which both debuted in the NBA as very experienced international players have nothing with this. Also, Monte Morris in his real rookie year gets only 3 games, the rest spent in the G-League, and in his sophomore season when he is already 23y old he would never get from Malone 24mpg if veteran Isaiah Thomas episode didn't turn into a disaster.


This isn't going to end well....AGAIN !!!!! I thought Rebel laid it out very well, and I agree with his supposition that Malone doesn't have BIAS against rookies, he plays the players who give him the best shot to win. Bol and MPJ, both the subject of the proposed Mod-ire, needed to regain as much health prior to court time, giving them both time to heal. Waiting to get both more NBA ready has turned out well for the Nuggets IMO.
So you think JJ Hickson and Arthur removed to C give better shot for winning games in 2016 than rookie Jokic which was already that season Nuggets player with the biggest Win Share despite was ranked #9 by playing time? So you think in 2016 Denver (33-49 team) there were 8 players which deserved more playing time than rookie Jokic? Murray was also #9 by playing time in Denver in his rookie year, while Porter last season was not even TOP10 by playing time in Denver. Do you really believe we have last season 10 better players than Porter, who was chosen in the all-NBA bubble team when he gets a chance not because of Malone's trust but because of Barton's injury?
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1066 » by THE J0KER » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:43 am

The Rebel wrote:
Spoiler:
THE J0KER wrote:@The Rebel

Do we really need some extra proofs about Malone's blindness and stubbornness when it comes to giving minutes and chances to young rookies no matter how they talented are or in most extreme cases even when they are already better than anyone else playing on their position?

Nikola Jokic was drafted as #41 and in his rookie year played 21.7 mpg and being chosen in all-rookie 1st team... but... Nikola Jokic was drafted in 2014 when he was almost no-name even in Serbia, but he comes to the NBA year later in 2015 as the youngest regional (ex-Yugoslavia) ABA league MVP! We all know that story of how Mike Miller was shocked about Jokic's skills since very first played with him (it is not that easy to impress a former LBJ-Wade teammate). But more importantly, the only other talented center Nurkic was shut-down for the season after just 30 games, mediocre JJ Hickson played only 20 games (traded to WAS), Darrell Arthur who the whole career played as PF that particular season more played as a center because Malone doesn't trust enough in young Jokic and Nurkic. Nikola Jokic with 21.7 was that season #9 player by playing time, but already the best in "per 36 minutes" stats (17-12-4 TS%58%). If (probably) future HoF Jokic in the lottery-team Nuggets without any other notable center (especially since Nurkic injury) get from Malone under 22 minutes, how many minutes you expecting to see for this season FC rookie Nnaji playing for Denver contender team?

Porter was already in his rookie year our 3rd best player "per 36 minutes" last season, but he gets only 16mpg from Malone despite competing for SF and PF minutes with starters undersized-SF Barton and aging PF-Millsap. Porter was also TOP3 rookie last season "per-36 minutes" and via "eye-test", but not even participate in Rookies/Sophomores ASG for USA team, or was not member even of 2nd all-rookie team in 2020, thanks to miserable playing time. So if (probably) future all-star Porter gets just 16mpg how many minutes you expecting this season forward rookie Bol Bol will get from Malone?

In the 2016-17 season, Denver has three new exciting rookies in Murray, Juancho, and Beasley. Beasley barely played (22 games) and when getting a chance played just garbage 7.5 minutes, Juancho his first two years competing mostly with badly declining Chandler but still get only 13 and 11 minutes, but most interesting is the case of #7 pick that year Jamal Murray who competing for PG minutes with NBA worst PG starter that season Muddiay and 35y old aging veteran Nelson. During the middle of the season, Muddiay lost his spot in the team and barely played, but Murray gets only 21.5 mpg despite his ability as combo-guard to play on SG too. If (probably) future all-star Murray in such perfect circumstances for him gets only 21 mpg how many minutes you expecting to see for PG Hampton this season?

The cases of Craig and Campazzo which both debuted in the NBA as very experienced international players have nothing with this. Also, Monte Morris in his real rookie year gets only 3 games, the rest spent in the G-League, and in his sophomore season when he is already 23y old he would never get from Malone 24mpg if veteran Isaiah Thomas episode didn't turn into a disaster.


I laid out all the young guys that Malone played above in this thread. I also posted that the Nuggets are the 2nd youngest team in NBA history to make the conference finals, both in average age and average age weighted by minutes played. Arguing that he does not play young players or rookies says more about you than it does about Malone. 1 coach in 73 years of the NBA has existed played younger players and had the same success that Malone has had. That is a fact and there is no way to argue that.

You have some basic problems with math in this post. These "youngest ever" rotations in 2019 didn't come from Malone choosing young players over veterans, but the whole Nuggets roster that season was young under-24 players with only one real veteran Millsap, and three experienced players Plumlee, Barton, and Craig. Also, we don't talk here about "young players" in general, but only about "young rookies". Jokic, Murray, and Harris is Denver established starters since their 2nd season, and it would be crazy if the MPJ case will be any different. But you started this discussion by saying that claims that Malone doesn't like to give chances and minutes to young rookies are false, so no reasons for low expectations from young rookies Bol, Nnaji, and Hampton in 2021 because of Malone. I give Hampton better chances to be an all-star player in 2025 than to play more than 15 minutes under Malone as a rookie, despite every rookie class generate just about 5 future all-star players and about 30 players who will have over 15mpg in their rookie year (MPJ was ranked #35 among rookies last season with 16.4mpg in his rookie class).
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1067 » by Mickey8 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:05 am

Jokic wasn't that unknown player in 2014, he was the part of the U19 NT who played USA in the World Championship finals and he had a very good game in that final, also that same year he was the starter for the Mega senior team and the talent and the skill was obvious, he had some good games that year already .
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1068 » by skywalker33 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:18 am

THE J0KER wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
Spoiler:
THE J0KER wrote:@The Rebel

Do we really need some extra proofs about Malone's blindness and stubbornness when it comes to giving minutes and chances to young rookies no matter how they talented are or in most extreme cases even when they are already better than anyone else playing on their position?

Nikola Jokic was drafted as #41 and in his rookie year played 21.7 mpg and being chosen in all-rookie 1st team... but... Nikola Jokic was drafted in 2014 when he was almost no-name even in Serbia, but he comes to the NBA year later in 2015 as the youngest regional (ex-Yugoslavia) ABA league MVP! We all know that story of how Mike Miller was shocked about Jokic's skills since very first played with him (it is not that easy to impress a former LBJ-Wade teammate). But more importantly, the only other talented center Nurkic was shut-down for the season after just 30 games, mediocre JJ Hickson played only 20 games (traded to WAS), Darrell Arthur who the whole career played as PF that particular season more played as a center because Malone doesn't trust enough in young Jokic and Nurkic. Nikola Jokic with 21.7 was that season #9 player by playing time, but already the best in "per 36 minutes" stats (17-12-4 TS%58%). If (probably) future HoF Jokic in the lottery-team Nuggets without any other notable center (especially since Nurkic injury) get from Malone under 22 minutes, how many minutes you expecting to see for this season FC rookie Nnaji playing for Denver contender team?

Porter was already in his rookie year our 3rd best player "per 36 minutes" last season, but he gets only 16mpg from Malone despite competing for SF and PF minutes with starters undersized-SF Barton and aging PF-Millsap. Porter was also TOP3 rookie last season "per-36 minutes" and via "eye-test", but not even participate in Rookies/Sophomores ASG for USA team, or was not member even of 2nd all-rookie team in 2020, thanks to miserable playing time. So if (probably) future all-star Porter gets just 16mpg how many minutes you expecting this season forward rookie Bol Bol will get from Malone?

In the 2016-17 season, Denver has three new exciting rookies in Murray, Juancho, and Beasley. Beasley barely played (22 games) and when getting a chance played just garbage 7.5 minutes, Juancho his first two years competing mostly with badly declining Chandler but still get only 13 and 11 minutes, but most interesting is the case of #7 pick that year Jamal Murray who competing for PG minutes with NBA worst PG starter that season Muddiay and 35y old aging veteran Nelson. During the middle of the season, Muddiay lost his spot in the team and barely played, but Murray gets only 21.5 mpg despite his ability as combo-guard to play on SG too. If (probably) future all-star Murray in such perfect circumstances for him gets only 21 mpg how many minutes you expecting to see for PG Hampton this season?

The cases of Craig and Campazzo which both debuted in the NBA as very experienced international players have nothing with this. Also, Monte Morris in his real rookie year gets only 3 games, the rest spent in the G-League, and in his sophomore season when he is already 23y old he would never get from Malone 24mpg if veteran Isaiah Thomas episode didn't turn into a disaster.


This isn't going to end well....AGAIN !!!!! I thought Rebel laid it out very well, and I agree with his supposition that Malone doesn't have BIAS against rookies, he plays the players who give him the best shot to win. Bol and MPJ, both the subject of the proposed Mod-ire, needed to regain as much health prior to court time, giving them both time to heal. Waiting to get both more NBA ready has turned out well for the Nuggets IMO.


So you think JJ Hickson and Arthur removed to C give better shot for winning games in 2016 than rookie Jokic which was already that season Nuggets player with the biggest Win Share despite was ranked #9 by playing time? So you think in 2016 Denver (33-49 team) there were 8 players which deserved more playing time than rookie Jokic? Murray was also #9 by playing time in Denver in his rookie year, while Porter last season was not even TOP10 by playing time in Denver. Do you really believe we have last season 10 better players than Porter, who was chosen in the all-NBA bubble team when he gets a chance not because of Malone's trust but because of Barton's injury?


REALLY, you do realize Jokic started 55 games (today's the anniversary day he benched Nurkic to start Jokic BTW) in 2016. Also, I believe Malone, in his 2nd HC position, was trying to rely on vets but the FACT Jokic started 55 games in 2016 shows me he was playing who he thought would give him the best chance of winning. In fact, Hickson was traded during the 15-16 season after 20 games. In the previous seasons, he was a strong defender and given Malone's history as a defensive coach, easy to see where his faith in player production was rewarded. Arthur was a PF, he was part of the rotation, (again, known for his defense), yet only started 16 games, as far as I can tell, none at C in front of Joker.

As for Murray, you do realize his 1st season he started out shooting 0-16 and yet Malone STILL gave him PT. When he finally started to produce, his defense suffered, impacting the team again. And yet he STILL was getting double-digit mins IN HIS ROOKIE YEAR.

As for MPJ, his injury history speaks for itself, you surely can't be too blind to know that ??? Can't say there may have been 10 better players but those 10 players we're DEFINITELY healthier than MPJ. And technically, this was MPJ's rookie season and he was still recovering based on the Nuggets medical staff (only guessing there, but not a reach IMO).
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1069 » by The Rebel » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:36 am

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Spoiler:
THE J0KER wrote:@The Rebel

Do we really need some extra proofs about Malone's blindness and stubbornness when it comes to giving minutes and chances to young rookies no matter how they talented are or in most extreme cases even when they are already better than anyone else playing on their position?

Nikola Jokic was drafted as #41 and in his rookie year played 21.7 mpg and being chosen in all-rookie 1st team... but... Nikola Jokic was drafted in 2014 when he was almost no-name even in Serbia, but he comes to the NBA year later in 2015 as the youngest regional (ex-Yugoslavia) ABA league MVP! We all know that story of how Mike Miller was shocked about Jokic's skills since very first played with him (it is not that easy to impress a former LBJ-Wade teammate). But more importantly, the only other talented center Nurkic was shut-down for the season after just 30 games, mediocre JJ Hickson played only 20 games (traded to WAS), Darrell Arthur who the whole career played as PF that particular season more played as a center because Malone doesn't trust enough in young Jokic and Nurkic. Nikola Jokic with 21.7 was that season #9 player by playing time, but already the best in "per 36 minutes" stats (17-12-4 TS%58%). If (probably) future HoF Jokic in the lottery-team Nuggets without any other notable center (especially since Nurkic injury) get from Malone under 22 minutes, how many minutes you expecting to see for this season FC rookie Nnaji playing for Denver contender team?

Porter was already in his rookie year our 3rd best player "per 36 minutes" last season, but he gets only 16mpg from Malone despite competing for SF and PF minutes with starters undersized-SF Barton and aging PF-Millsap. Porter was also TOP3 rookie last season "per-36 minutes" and via "eye-test", but not even participate in Rookies/Sophomores ASG for USA team, or was not member even of 2nd all-rookie team in 2020, thanks to miserable playing time. So if (probably) future all-star Porter gets just 16mpg how many minutes you expecting this season forward rookie Bol Bol will get from Malone?

In the 2016-17 season, Denver has three new exciting rookies in Murray, Juancho, and Beasley. Beasley barely played (22 games) and when getting a chance played just garbage 7.5 minutes, Juancho his first two years competing mostly with badly declining Chandler but still get only 13 and 11 minutes, but most interesting is the case of #7 pick that year Jamal Murray who competing for PG minutes with NBA worst PG starter that season Muddiay and 35y old aging veteran Nelson. During the middle of the season, Muddiay lost his spot in the team and barely played, but Murray gets only 21.5 mpg despite his ability as combo-guard to play on SG too. If (probably) future all-star Murray in such perfect circumstances for him gets only 21 mpg how many minutes you expecting to see for PG Hampton this season?

The cases of Craig and Campazzo which both debuted in the NBA as very experienced international players have nothing with this. Also, Monte Morris in his real rookie year gets only 3 games, the rest spent in the G-League, and in his sophomore season when he is already 23y old he would never get from Malone 24mpg if veteran Isaiah Thomas episode didn't turn into a disaster.


I laid out all the young guys that Malone played above in this thread. I also posted that the Nuggets are the 2nd youngest team in NBA history to make the conference finals, both in average age and average age weighted by minutes played. Arguing that he does not play young players or rookies says more about you than it does about Malone. 1 coach in 73 years of the NBA has existed played younger players and had the same success that Malone has had. That is a fact and there is no way to argue that.

You have some basic problems with math in this post. These "youngest ever" rotations in 2019 didn't come from Malone choosing young players over veterans, but the whole Nuggets roster that season was young under-24 players with only one real veteran Millsap, and three experienced players Plumlee, Barton, and Craig. Also, we don't talk here about "young players" in general, but only about "young rookies". Jokic, Murray, and Harris is Denver established starters since their 2nd season, and it would be crazy if the MPJ case will be any different. But you started this discussion by saying that claims that Malone doesn't like to give chances and minutes to young rookies are false, so no reasons for low expectations from young rookies Bol, Nnaji, and Hampton in 2021 because of Malone. I give Hampton better chances to be an all-star player in 2025 than to play more than 15 minutes under Malone as a rookie, despite every rookie class generate just about 5 future all-star players and about 30 players who will have over 15mpg in their rookie year (MPJ was ranked #35 among rookies last season with 16.4mpg in his rookie class).


IN all your rants you do not once state that someone didn't get minutes when they were medically cleared, just not enough to suit what you wanted.

I showed the list on the previous page, 8 rookies I believe it was got minutes in their 1st year available to play under contract with the Nuggets. I don't see anywhere you dispute that fact, so I guess you agree that the statement that "Malone doesn't play rookies" is a flat lie considering we all agree he has played 8 rookies in his rotation over the last 5 year period.

Jokiic, Murray, Harris, and now MPJ were all starting games by the time they were 21, another fact. I see nothing in your rants that state otherwise, so wouldn't you agree that "Malone doesn't play young players" is another flat lie?

Malone took the 2nd youngest team in NBA history to the conference finals, you can make all the claims about how he was forced and how you know better, but the fact is results matter. There has been 1 coach in 73 years that has won more with a younger team, that is another fact.

You can bitch about how many minutes different guys should have in your opinion, but to say he doesn't play young players or rookies is a joke and anybody who has followed this team in the last 5 years knows it. So why continue to spread obvious misinformation?

Also if you think my math is wrong than by all means post the average age weighted by minutes for the Nuggets, then go find the studies showing that the Celtics were previously the 2nd youngest at over 3 years older than our players last season.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1070 » by THE J0KER » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:22 am

The Rebel wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Spoiler:


I laid out all the young guys that Malone played above in this thread. I also posted that the Nuggets are the 2nd youngest team in NBA history to make the conference finals, both in average age and average age weighted by minutes played. Arguing that he does not play young players or rookies says more about you than it does about Malone. 1 coach in 73 years of the NBA has existed played younger players and had the same success that Malone has had. That is a fact and there is no way to argue that.

You have some basic problems with math in this post. These "youngest ever" rotations in 2019 didn't come from Malone choosing young players over veterans, but the whole Nuggets roster that season was young under-24 players with only one real veteran Millsap, and three experienced players Plumlee, Barton, and Craig. Also, we don't talk here about "young players" in general, but only about "young rookies". Jokic, Murray, and Harris is Denver established starters since their 2nd season, and it would be crazy if the MPJ case will be any different. But you started this discussion by saying that claims that Malone doesn't like to give chances and minutes to young rookies are false, so no reasons for low expectations from young rookies Bol, Nnaji, and Hampton in 2021 because of Malone. I give Hampton better chances to be an all-star player in 2025 than to play more than 15 minutes under Malone as a rookie, despite every rookie class generate just about 5 future all-star players and about 30 players who will have over 15mpg in their rookie year (MPJ was ranked #35 among rookies last season with 16.4mpg in his rookie class).


IN all your rants you do not once state that someone didn't get minutes when they were medically cleared, just not enough to suit what you wanted.

I showed the list on the previous page, 8 rookies I believe it was got minutes in their 1st year available to play under contract with the Nuggets. I don't see anywhere you dispute that fact, so I guess you agree that the statement that "Malone doesn't play rookies" is a flat lie considering we all agree he has played 8 rookies in his rotation over the last 5 year period.

Jokiic, Murray, Harris, and now MPJ were all starting games by the time they were 21, another fact. I see nothing in your rants that state otherwise, so wouldn't you agree that "Malone doesn't play young players" is another flat lie?

Malone took the 2nd youngest team in NBA history to the conference finals, you can make all the claims about how he was forced and how you know better, but the fact is results matter. There has been 1 coach in 73 years that has won more with a younger team, that is another fact.

You can bitch about how many minutes different guys should have in your opinion, but to say he doesn't play young players or rookies is a joke and anybody who has followed this team in the last 5 years knows it. So why continue to spread obvious misinformation?

Also if you think my math is wrong than by all means post the average age weighted by minutes for the Nuggets, then go find the studies showing that the Celtics were previously the 2nd youngest at over 3 years older than our players last season.

Nikola Jokic is today considered to be clearly the best player of his rookie class, but in his rookie year, he was #10 by playing time (I ignored cases of two players who played under 20 games). Jamal Murray considered a TOP3 player in his rookie class (with Embiid and Ingram) is also just #10 by playing time in his rookie season, while today's very decent players Juancho and Beasley from the same rookie class were not even TOP30 by playing time (Beasley actually not even TOP50) among rookies. MPJ is considered TOP5 talent in his rookie class by all experts, but still not even TOP30 by playing time last season. So the only exception about young rookies and very restricted Malone's playing time was Mudiay, but his playing time has nothing with his talent, so that case was just exceptional. Craig debuted already as the veteran, while Morris in his real rookie year played only 3 games despite considered to be by many the best G-League player that year.

Facts.

You can argue that maybe Malone is actually smarter than all other NBA coaches for not giving enough minutes to young rookies no matter how talented they are, but don't try to prove that there is nothing "unusual" in his playing time strategy for young rookies if the same things happen again and again. Nobody ever complain too much on this board because he didn't give enough chances to Cancar, JV, Lydon... the players which never showed in their rookie year that they deserved that chance.

That is why I (WITH A REASON!) have almost zero expectations from Hampton and Nnaji THIS season, and the only mystery is Bol Bol, will Malone look at him as rookie or as sophomore. No need to explain why 29y Campazzo is not part of this story.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1071 » by Alatan » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:49 pm

Its not that Malone doesnt play rookies at all but he plays them low minutes and garbage time. Most of us would like to see some of the young guys get more minutes to develop at cost of won games. But maybe its better to make them earn minutes and learn to play the game in the right way.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1072 » by TunaFish » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:37 pm

Alatan wrote:Its not that Malone doesnt play rookies at all but he plays them low minutes and garbage time. Most of us would like to see some of the young guys get more minutes to develop at cost of won games. But maybe its better to make them earn minutes and learn to play the game in the right way.


Seems to have worked so far.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1073 » by NuggetsWY » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:43 pm

TunaFish wrote:
Alatan wrote:Its not that Malone doesnt play rookies at all but he plays them low minutes and garbage time. Most of us would like to see some of the young guys get more minutes to develop at cost of won games. But maybe its better to make them earn minutes and learn to play the game in the right way.

Seems to have worked so far.

Malone is effective. He is focused on winning - every game, every quarter, every minute, every play. But there is no question he is effective.

I do not think he looks at the long-term or I believe he would use his young players more --- not all of them, but certain ones. Of course he would no doubt say he is looking long-term and developing them during practice. I hear plenty of former players and national announcers talk about the advantage of playing, including crucial times. It's a matter of opinion and while I disagree with Malone's approach, obviously the front office doesn't.

*** This is supposed to be a "Nuggets Trades" thread. Sure wish we could get back to that! :lol:
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1074 » by skywalker33 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:18 pm

NuggetsWY wrote:
TunaFish wrote:
Alatan wrote:Its not that Malone doesnt play rookies at all but he plays them low minutes and garbage time. Most of us would like to see some of the young guys get more minutes to develop at cost of won games. But maybe its better to make them earn minutes and learn to play the game in the right way.

Seems to have worked so far.

Malone is effective. He is focused on winning - every game, every quarter, every minute, every play. But there is no question he is effective.

I do not think he looks at the long-term or I believe he would use his young players more --- not all of them, but certain ones. Of course he would no doubt say he is looking long-term and developing them during practice. I hear plenty of former players and national announcers talk about the advantage of playing, including crucial times. It's a matter of opinion and while I disagree with Malone's approach, obviously the front office doesn't.

*** This is supposed to be a "Nuggets Trades" thread. Sure wish we could get back to that! :lol:


Well, you're a Mod, can't you move these posts over to the Malone is Crap, kill the MF thread...we do have one, right ? :lol:
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1075 » by Alatan » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:12 am

I dont think the Nuggets should trade anyone until we see them on the floor for a longer stretch of games. Im really excited about our current roster. We have so many talented guys that it would be hard to convince me to trade anyone. The trade deadline is in late March so we might get a better picture of the roster by then. Here are my opinions:

Jokic - Untouchable

Murray - I hope he has finally arrived at the star level but if he starts the season slow and inconsistent as he has previously id be open to include him in a trade for a perennial allstar type player.

Harris - I hoped he would get healthy and regain his athletic ability and jump shot but it seems his injuries have took their toll. Now he looks like a solid player on both ends but not remarkable. He is also has great chemistry with the team and knows the ins and outs. If an opportunity to upgrade his position with a MUCH better two way player arises i would do it but it probably isnt going to be the case.
MPJ - We need to see him on the floor. Period. Only if a team offers the likes of Giannis etc i might be willing to include him in a trade.
Bol - I might be in the minority but i regard Bol in a similar way as i do MPJ. Even more so. IMO he is even more talented than MPJ and his value around the league is not great. All the deals where he is thrown in as a sweetener infuriate me. I would not include him in any trades until i see him on the floor for at least half a season.
Dozier - I like his two way potential. Would not trade him until i see his development path. He can be included only in trades for a perennial allstar type as a consolidation move.
Nnaji - Same as Dozier. Looks to be a nice two way player.
Marcus Howard - Has incredible shooting ability. Pretty good scorer even at his height. Could develop into a 6th man of the year type player. Value around the league probably isnt great so id not include him in a deal.

Campazzo - Fast, tenacious, smart. Can be lead the bench squad and provide defensive stoppage minutes. Wish he was a better shooter but for the bench it might not be an issue. His size might be a problem in the playoffs but if the refs let it play our rough he could be ok. Id keep him unless he gets played off the court.

Millsap - He is our vet and even as he has declined as a player he can be useful as a player coach. Currently his best role is as a backup 4 or even maybe the 5 but if he declines even further he can mentor the young guys in practices. I doubt that teams would value him much so i dont see a trade where we could include him. The only teams that would value him as a player would be contending teams and those would offer only 2nd or very late 1sts at best. Trades for very late 1sts might come to an agreement but i doubt that there will be any and we have plenty of young guys that need playing time.

Green - Just got here and with his player profile he could be useful next to Jokic. Jokic rises the value of roleplayers and we might see Greens value rise up like Grants has. Later on in the season we might be able to include him in a consolidation trade for a star/borderline star player if we dont intend to keep him.

Whitington - I was going through some of his footage and the guy looks very promising as a two way player. His shooting might take some time to adjust but his 1v1 defense looks really nice. He might shoot up through the ranks and even become a starter. Would hold on to him.

Hastenstein - He doesnt strike me as a positive player. Looks like the type of player the NBA has phased out. I might be wrong and he could become a decent offensive bench piece. His value is that of a throw in to a big deal.
Cancar - Similar story as Hartenstein but Cancar has more girth and lower skill. We might hold on to one of them as the 3rd big and spot minutes in certain matchups that need size. Since id rather have a low cost bruiser as the 3rd big it might be Cancars spot.

Morris - He is a solid bench pg that doesnt really raise the bar in the playoffs. He is not a great fit next to Jokic and we might have a better bench PG in Campazzo. He could play next to Campazzo but id rather leave those minutes to develop some of our younger guys. For now i regard him as the safety net PG if Campazzo doesnt fit in but if he does then Morris might be the one guy id look to trade. There are a few teams around the league that would need what he brings but they dont really have much to offer back. Late picks or underwhelming young players is the best we could hope for. Id rather add him to a consolidation trade for a good player.

Barton - He is one of our few vets and that might be important for the playoffs. Even so i dont like his fit next to Jokic and there were some talk about him wanting to be a starter. We need to see how he looks coming back from the injury. He could be really useful as a scorer of the bench but i dont know if he want to accept that role. He is one of the players id be willing to trade and his value might be decent yet again i dont think that teams would be able to give back much for him. So the best solution would be to include him in a consolidation trade.

Trade targets:
There are not many good players other teams would be willing to let go. Even less ones teams would trade for a reasonable price. Usually its the disgruntled players that teams are willing to trade or those with an uncertain future coming back from a serious injury. Id stay away from the later type.
Giannis, AD, Doncic, Tatum etc are not getable.
Kawhi, LBJ might be available for an insane price witch would probably backfire quickly.
Harden, Hield, Lavine, Derozan, Cj, Booker, Beal etc dont really fit well next to both Jokic and Murray. So the only possible trade would be to swap Murray for one of them and in most cases that would make us worse not better. Only Harden, Booker and Beal are currently better than Murray but considering chemistry and playstyle i dont know would it be worth trading Murray for them. Probably not.
PG might be available but due to his contract and health concerns (shoulder) i would not be willing to trade for him.
Lowry, Holiday, CP3, D Green etc. are players over the hill that could fall of at any point. I would not be willing to trade anything significant for them.
Love, Griffin, Rose, Hayward, Oladipo, Wall, Cousins, Westbrook, Thompson are big names that are washed, close to washed or shells of their former selves on big contracts. Id stay clear of those.
Towns, Embiid, Gobert etc cant be played next to Jokic even if we got them for free.
Good players on rookie contracts are most likely of the table excluding trading our own start to get them.
Players like A. Gordon, Tobias Harris, Sabonis, Rubio are overrated and overpriced. Id stay away from them.
Curry and Butler might be really good in Denver but for a short window. We would also need them to want out and to pay a price.
Siakam, Adebayo, Simmons could be a nice fit next to Jokic/Murray but would deplete our assets/roster so i dont know would it be good to trade for them.
Other players are not really worth trading for as we have enough young promising players that could fill our needs.
Isaac might be a nice gamble is Orlando is willing to let him go.

TLDR we have a bunch of young promising players that id like to see us develop and would not trade almost anyone except for a really good all NBA type player that fits next to Jokic.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1076 » by NuggetsWY » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:40 am

Alatan wrote:I dont think the Nuggets should trade anyone until we see them on the floor for a longer stretch of games. Im really excited about our current roster. We have so many talented guys that it would be hard to convince me to trade anyone. The trade deadline is in late March so we might get a better picture of the roster by then. Here are my opinions:
Spoiler:
Jokic - Untouchable

Murray - I hope he has finally arrived at the star level but if he starts the season slow and inconsistent as he has previously id be open to include him in a trade for a perennial allstar type player.

Harris - I hoped he would get healthy and regain his athletic ability and jump shot but it seems his injuries have took their toll. Now he looks like a solid player on both ends but not remarkable. He is also has great chemistry with the team and knows the ins and outs. If an opportunity to upgrade his position with a MUCH better two way player arises i would do it but it probably isnt going to be the case.
MPJ - We need to see him on the floor. Period. Only if a team offers the likes of Giannis etc i might be willing to include him in a trade.
Bol - I might be in the minority but i regard Bol in a similar way as i do MPJ. Even more so. IMO he is even more talented than MPJ and his value around the league is not great. All the deals where he is thrown in as a sweetener infuriate me. I would not include him in any trades until i see him on the floor for at least half a season.
Dozier - I like his two way potential. Would not trade him until i see his development path. He can be included only in trades for a perennial allstar type as a consolidation move.
Nnaji - Same as Dozier. Looks to be a nice two way player.
Marcus Howard - Has incredible shooting ability. Pretty good scorer even at his height. Could develop into a 6th man of the year type player. Value around the league probably isnt great so id not include him in a deal.

Campazzo - Fast, tenacious, smart. Can be lead the bench squad and provide defensive stoppage minutes. Wish he was a better shooter but for the bench it might not be an issue. His size might be a problem in the playoffs but if the refs let it play our rough he could be ok. Id keep him unless he gets played off the court.

Millsap - He is our vet and even as he has declined as a player he can be useful as a player coach. Currently his best role is as a backup 4 or even maybe the 5 but if he declines even further he can mentor the young guys in practices. I doubt that teams would value him much so i dont see a trade where we could include him. The only teams that would value him as a player would be contending teams and those would offer only 2nd or very late 1sts at best. Trades for very late 1sts might come to an agreement but i doubt that there will be any and we have plenty of young guys that need playing time.

Green - Just got here and with his player profile he could be useful next to Jokic. Jokic rises the value of roleplayers and we might see Greens value rise up like Grants has. Later on in the season we might be able to include him in a consolidation trade for a star/borderline star player if we dont intend to keep him.

Whitington - I was going through some of his footage and the guy looks very promising as a two way player. His shooting might take some time to adjust but his 1v1 defense looks really nice. He might shoot up through the ranks and even become a starter. Would hold on to him.

Hastenstein - He doesnt strike me as a positive player. Looks like the type of player the NBA has phased out. I might be wrong and he could become a decent offensive bench piece. His value is that of a throw in to a big deal.
Cancar - Similar story as Hartenstein but Cancar has more girth and lower skill. We might hold on to one of them as the 3rd big and spot minutes in certain matchups that need size. Since id rather have a low cost bruiser as the 3rd big it might be Cancars spot.

Morris - He is a solid bench pg that doesnt really raise the bar in the playoffs. He is not a great fit next to Jokic and we might have a better bench PG in Campazzo. He could play next to Campazzo but id rather leave those minutes to develop some of our younger guys. For now i regard him as the safety net PG if Campazzo doesnt fit in but if he does then Morris might be the one guy id look to trade. There are a few teams around the league that would need what he brings but they dont really have much to offer back. Late picks or underwhelming young players is the best we could hope for. Id rather add him to a consolidation trade for a good player.

Barton - He is one of our few vets and that might be important for the playoffs. Even so i dont like his fit next to Jokic and there were some talk about him wanting to be a starter. We need to see how he looks coming back from the injury. He could be really useful as a scorer of the bench but i dont know if he want to accept that role. He is one of the players id be willing to trade and his value might be decent yet again i dont think that teams would be able to give back much for him. So the best solution would be to include him in a consolidation trade.

Trade targets:
There are not many good players other teams would be willing to let go. Even less ones teams would trade for a reasonable price. Usually its the disgruntled players that teams are willing to trade or those with an uncertain future coming back from a serious injury. Id stay away from the later type.
Giannis, AD, Doncic, Tatum etc are not getable.
Kawhi, LBJ might be available for an insane price witch would probably backfire quickly.
Harden, Hield, Lavine, Derozan, Cj, Booker, Beal etc dont really fit well next to both Jokic and Murray. So the only possible trade would be to swap Murray for one of them and in most cases that would make us worse not better. Only Harden, Booker and Beal are currently better than Murray but considering chemistry and playstyle i dont know would it be worth trading Murray for them. Probably not.
PG might be available but due to his contract and health concerns (shoulder) i would not be willing to trade for him.
Lowry, Holiday, CP3, D Green etc. are players over the hill that could fall of at any point. I would not be willing to trade anything significant for them.
Love, Griffin, Rose, Hayward, Oladipo, Wall, Cousins, Westbrook, Thompson are big names that are washed, close to washed or shells of their former selves on big contracts. Id stay clear of those.
Towns, Embiid, Gobert etc cant be played next to Jokic even if we got them for free.
Good players on rookie contracts are most likely of the table excluding trading our own start to get them.
Players like A. Gordon, Tobias Harris, Sabonis, Rubio are overrated and overpriced. Id stay away from them.
Curry and Butler might be really good in Denver but for a short window. We would also need them to want out and to pay a price.
Siakam, Adebayo, Simmons could be a nice fit next to Jokic/Murray but would deplete our assets/roster so i dont know would it be good to trade for them.
Other players are not really worth trading for as we have enough young promising players that could fill our needs.
Isaac might be a nice gamble is Orlando is willing to let him go.

TLDR we have a bunch of young promising players that id like to see us develop and would not trade almost anyone except for a really good all NBA type player that fits next to Jokic.

I agree with your initial statement and agree with most of your analysis.

I'll simply say, do not trade Jokic, Murray, Porter, and probably not Bol. There are others I'd like to keep too, but for a starting quality forward that can play some defense and get some boards and find some hustle points plus he needs to be 30 years or younger, I'd be willing to trade. Like you said, hard to find those guys - especially if they aren't over priced. For a few, I'm willing to do a little over-pay; especially adding some 1sts, because we have such a young team we'll probably be okay with losing some of those - for the right man.

But I'd like to see what we have - seems like I said that last year too. :lol:
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1077 » by Mickey8 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:02 am

I can't believe people are high on Bol.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1078 » by TunaFish » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:00 am

Mickey8 wrote:I can't believe people are high on Bol.


Tonight, he scored 10 points and grabbed 6 rebounds while playing 5 minutes. There is every reason to be "high" on Bol at 21 years of age.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1079 » by eathb_au » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:53 pm

Next to zero percent chance that we'll be able to retain Barton next season. Getting value for him before the deadline should be thought about.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1080 » by Richard Miller » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:01 pm

Alatan wrote:Hastenstein - He doesnt strike me as a positive player. Looks like the type of player the NBA has phased out. I might be wrong and he could become a decent offensive bench piece. His value is that of a throw in to a big deal.


Hartenstein literally spent less than 3 weeks with the team and is only 22 - he could easily develop to be as good or better than Plumlee and Plumlee just signed for 25 mil, Nuggets don't need to hurry with him.

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