Manolito wrote:I would pull the trigger for Harden. MPJ + Harris + Barton + 2021 FRP + 2025 FRP
Despite his currently poor attitude, how many times have the Nuggets ever had the chance to land a top10 player with still two years in his contract? Without getting rid of two all star players, that is a huge big three. This is the last piece to be an absolut contender for the next two years. We have seen already that formula in the Lakers, best duo in the league plus a bunch of role players
Losing MPJ would hurt a lot, I love his potential. But he has an injury story behind him and there is no guarantee he would become an All Star. Barton´s value is almost zero. He has a PO and all this starter s***. Harris is a top defender but I am tired already of waiting for his old shooting.
Murray Morris Campazzo Harden Hampton Dozier Millsap Green Bol Bol Nnaji Jokic Hartenstein
That is scary team, even deep except obviously in SF. If you make such a trade, you go all in and I hope they also trade for Tucker with Grant´s TPE. There are a couple of vets who could help (Kidd Gilchrist, Hollis Jefferson,...they only need to guard for 10 minutes)
Harden is a good player but he is an opposite of what fits next to Jokic or Murray.
You say Denver would be a scary team but i just see a bunch of weaknesses and redundancies. How would we defend the PnR? Both Harde and Jokic are not great PnR defenders. How would we defend the perimeter? Harden is awful at the perimeter and Murray is not there yet. How would we defend Harden and Jokic being targeted on isolation? We cant hide half the team. Who would defend the rim? 35 year old Millsap? Who would defend big wings like LBJ, Kawhi, Giannis? Who would defend the Lilards and Kayries of the NBA? Dozier might get there but probably not before Harden decides to leave.
Would Harden play off ball in Denver? He didnt play off ball with CP3 or Westbrook so why would we believe he would play nice with Jokic and Murray? If he is going to stand around the logo like he did in Houston id rather have Cancar on those plays. He would at least try to do something without the ball. When Harden has the ball will he try to play in a motion offense or will he just Iso all day making Jokic a glorified Anderson and Murray, Eric Gordon. Thats a team that struggles to make the playoffs in the 1st season together. Then you need to trade even more guys to bring in defensive vets around Harden and Jokic witch probably means trading Murray.
If that doesnt work Harden is gone and we are left with a disgruntled Jokic wanting out. That trade brings so many pit falls that id rather just not have Harden. Harden needs a team built around him. He is not a player willing to adjust from what i saw.
Manolito wrote:I would pull the trigger for Harden. MPJ + Harris + Barton + 2021 FRP + 2025 FRP
Despite his currently poor attitude, how many times have the Nuggets ever had the chance to land a top10 player with still two years in his contract? Without getting rid of two all star players, that is a huge big three. This is the last piece to be an absolut contender for the next two years. We have seen already that formula in the Lakers, best duo in the league plus a bunch of role players
Losing MPJ would hurt a lot, I love his potential. But he has an injury story behind him and there is no guarantee he would become an All Star. Barton´s value is almost zero. He has a PO and all this starter s***. Harris is a top defender but I am tired already of waiting for his old shooting.
Murray Morris Campazzo Harden Hampton Dozier Millsap Green Bol Bol Nnaji Jokic Hartenstein
That is scary team, even deep except obviously in SF. If you make such a trade, you go all in and I hope they also trade for Tucker with Grant´s TPE. There are a couple of vets who could help (Kidd Gilchrist, Hollis Jefferson,...they only need to guard for 10 minutes)
Harden is a good player but he is an opposite of what fits next to Jokic or Murray.
You say Denver would be a scary team but i just see a bunch of weaknesses and redundancies. How would we defend the PnR? Both Harde and Jokic are not great PnR defenders. How would we defend the perimeter? Harden is awful at the perimeter and Murray is not there yet. How would we defend Harden and Jokic being targeted on isolation? We cant hide half the team. Who would defend the rim? 35 year old Millsap? Who would defend big wings like LBJ, Kawhi, Giannis? Who would defend the Lilards and Kayries of the NBA? Dozier might get there but probably not before Harden decides to leave.
Would Harden play off ball in Denver? He didnt play off ball with CP3 or Westbrook so why would we believe he would play nice with Jokic and Murray? If he is going to stand around the logo like he did in Houston id rather have Cancar on those plays. He would at least try to do something without the ball. When Harden has the ball will he try to play in a motion offense or will he just Iso all day making Jokic a glorified Anderson and Murray, Eric Gordon. Thats a team that struggles to make the playoffs in the 1st season together. Then you need to trade even more guys to bring in defensive vets around Harden and Jokic witch probably means trading Murray.
If that doesnt work Harden is gone and we are left with a disgruntled Jokic wanting out. That trade brings so many pit falls that id rather just not have Harden. Harden needs a team built around him. He is not a player willing to adjust from what i saw.
I agree, I want nothing to do with Harden, and if Connelly and the front office trade for him than they deserve to be fired when this team is destroyed over the next year.
Wigginstime wrote:Gonna make a controversial statement - If the right trades comes along, I would trade MPJ. I love his potential but am scarred he will turn into the KMart situation all over again. Denver will give him a max contract next off season and spend the next 4 years watching him struggling with injuries. I want to be very clear - MPJ has all star potential. His scoring is elite and his defense will come in time. I just a very bad feeling about this long term health.
For the right trade I would trade MPJ, but I don't think I would trade him for a guy like Harden.
If Beal was to come available than I would include MPJ. I would trade him for someone like Booker. Hell I would even trade him for a guy like Collins if we could get someone like Hunter with him for SF.
I am not so worried about his medical history, 30+ years ago PIppen had the same injury and had a long career. What I worry about is that we only have Jokic locked up for 3 years, so we have 2 years to convince him we are willing to do what it takes to win the championship. While Millsap is having a resurgence, and MPJ looks like he can grow into a great scorer, long term we are heavily dependent on the young guys developing and adding skills. While we have had a lot of luck developing guys, we don't have years to do it anymore.
THE J0KER wrote:Barton for Kyle Anderson is a good trade idea, Denver lacks defensive specialists since the exit of Grant, Plumlee, and Craig.
An alternate is a 3-team deal: Bucks - Kyle Anderson Grizzlies - Will Barton Nuggets - Donte DiVincenzo, Grayson Allen, D.J. Wilson
DiVincenzo ceiling is a better two-way player than Barton, while Grayson Allen is an interesting young prospect. Cap filler D.J. Wilson would be waived.
I wouldn't do it, but am interested in why you would?
Who do you cut to make the deal happen, under rules you need an open roster spot to bring extra players back in a trade, even if you are waiving 1. So which 2 players do you cut?
Both Allen and DiVincenzo are undersized SGs, both are shorter with short wing spans than Barton. So where do they play? Who's minutes are they taking?
Who is your backup SF?
What problem does this deal solve for the Nuggets?
This season it will be more just insurance for Gary Harris our player with the biggest injury issues past two seasons who played unrecovered from injury in the 2019 playoff and should miss the 2020 playoff if it was not played in August. G.Allen is a long term project, but DiVincenzo in his sophomore season already rises close to the two-way starter, which means Denver will be in a perfect position during the 2021 offseason when Bol Bol and Monte Morris be available for trades to create a "big package" of assets (Harris+Morris+Bol+2021) to take notable guard or forward as "The 4th star". If DiVincenzo improves into starter level we can use that package to get notable forward to join MPJ, if not, that "4th star" should be a guard with Campazzo, Hampton, Dozier, Allen, and DiVincenzo being backcourt backups. Talking about SF backup this season after such trade, Green can be used in that role. Last season, only when Kawhi and George are both on the bench Clippers need other SF, and they used Harkless for that, so Green and Morris played only PF. Even Bol can be used a few minutes as SF, and we see in preseason Malone wants to use 3-guard lineups more often than last season, with Dozier or Harris in temporary SF role.
I will explain once again why I advocate for the "big package for one notable TOP50 player" scenario. This offseason I was all in for the Jrue Holiday deal, and next season some other available guard or forward of that level will be my new target (Murray is combo guard, MPJ is a combo forward, so we can add that new starter from any position except center). Denver literally has too many NBA level talents. For regular season purposes that is a huge advantage. Starters can play fewer minutes, or as we saw last season when Jokic and Muray were healthy and the other three starters were out, we still beating opponents left and right without a problem, and also thanks to that depth Nuggets have a spectacular winning record in back-to-back matches. But once the playoff starts for what we need 15 good players? If Jokic and Murray play near 40 minutes, MPJ about 35, Harris about 30, and Millsap+Green together cover completely 48 PF minutes, these 6 players covering all but around 50 minutes. Do we really need 9 guys for that? For many of the current young players we risking the Beasley/Juancho scenario, to lose talented prospects almost for nothing without ever using them seriously. In 2022 Denver will sign (probably) a max contract with MPJ while Jokic (probably) going super-max with Murray on max until at least 2025. So, 2021 summer will be the last opportunity to do something creative, and with "4th star" we can create a dynasty using for the rest of the team players under rookie contracts and cheap veterans.
Green is not a backup Sf, he spent most of the last few years playing backup Center, he cannot even start to guard undersized Sfs on the perimeter. Harris is too small to guard guys like Lebron, and Dozier is very unproven. That is why I keep harping on needing a guy who can guard combo forwards, Green struggles with them even.
I am not worried about a 4th star, it has no long term benefit. 1 team in the history of the league has won with 4 stars in their prime, and that team had 4 stars happy to put their stats aside for the good of the team.
3 star teams win all the time, but without the proper role players they don't win either.
You still have yet to answer who you are cutting. YOu have yet to answer where the minutes for your guys come from. All this brings up another question, how are you going to package a bunch of guys that cannot get minutes for a superstar? YOu bring up Juancho and Beasley, their trade value was so low due to lack of minutes, so how do 9 guards build value for a superstar trade.
This is obviously coming out of our front office, which tells me that is Barton, Harris, and a couple of young guys, if we are even making an offer. Personally I want nothing to do with Harden, watching him stand at half court when Paul or Westbrook were running plays was bad enough, imagine him doing that when Jokic or Murray have the ball. May have well kept Craig.
THE J0KER wrote:Without Murray Houston will never trade Harden to Denver, even massive package around Porter will not be enough.
I can't see Nets will get him without losing Irving, Sixers without sending Simmons, Heat without Adebayo neither.
Yea, but if all of those three pull out, the package around MPJ could suddenly be the best they can hope for. Idk, not a big fan of Harden's game, but getting him for MPJ/Barton etc, it's like you drafted an MVP with #14, which is kinda insane/too good to skip. Anyway, I trust TC knows what he's doing.
Should be a telling tale, but really shows to be that Harden CAN'T work with other stars. He presented a SUPERIOR Big 3 in OKC but was traded. He couldn't work with CP3 or Westbrook in HOU, now he's looking to get out of HOU because the future he looking at has been decimated by trades of talent HE CAN'T/WON'T WORK WITH ! ? ! ?
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose
THE J0KER wrote:Without Murray Houston will never trade Harden to Denver, even massive package around Porter will not be enough.
I can't see Nets will get him without losing Irving, Sixers without sending Simmons, Heat without Adebayo neither.
Denver is not giving up Murray. What's bothering me about this tweet is the acknowledgement that Denver might well be planning a package for Harden. Harris and Barton are enough salary to match and Denver is already down a future first. So what does Denver have that would interest Houston?
I think with the improvement, humility and maturity (does Harden even have 2 out of 3 of those ?) I really don't see him being added into a Harden deal. In fact, not sure I'd want to add Zeke or RJ either to be honest, especially if we're adding draft picks.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose
The Rebel wrote: I wouldn't do it, but am interested in why you would?
Who do you cut to make the deal happen, under rules you need an open roster spot to bring extra players back in a trade, even if you are waiving 1. So which 2 players do you cut?
Both Allen and DiVincenzo are undersized SGs, both are shorter with short wing spans than Barton. So where do they play? Who's minutes are they taking?
Who is your backup SF?
What problem does this deal solve for the Nuggets?
This season it will be more just insurance for Gary Harris our player with the biggest injury issues past two seasons who played unrecovered from injury in the 2019 playoff and should miss the 2020 playoff if it was not played in August. G.Allen is a long term project, but DiVincenzo in his sophomore season already rises close to the two-way starter, which means Denver will be in a perfect position during the 2021 offseason when Bol Bol and Monte Morris be available for trades to create a "big package" of assets (Harris+Morris+Bol+2021) to take notable guard or forward as "The 4th star". If DiVincenzo improves into starter level we can use that package to get notable forward to join MPJ, if not, that "4th star" should be a guard with Campazzo, Hampton, Dozier, Allen, and DiVincenzo being backcourt backups. Talking about SF backup this season after such trade, Green can be used in that role. Last season, only when Kawhi and George are both on the bench Clippers need other SF, and they used Harkless for that, so Green and Morris played only PF. Even Bol can be used a few minutes as SF, and we see in preseason Malone wants to use 3-guard lineups more often than last season, with Dozier or Harris in temporary SF role.
I will explain once again why I advocate for the "big package for one notable TOP50 player" scenario. This offseason I was all in for the Jrue Holiday deal, and next season some other available guard or forward of that level will be my new target (Murray is combo guard, MPJ is a combo forward, so we can add that new starter from any position except center). Denver literally has too many NBA level talents. For regular season purposes that is a huge advantage. Starters can play fewer minutes, or as we saw last season when Jokic and Muray were healthy and the other three starters were out, we still beating opponents left and right without a problem, and also thanks to that depth Nuggets have a spectacular winning record in back-to-back matches. But once the playoff starts for what we need 15 good players? If Jokic and Murray play near 40 minutes, MPJ about 35, Harris about 30, and Millsap+Green together cover completely 48 PF minutes, these 6 players covering all but around 50 minutes. Do we really need 9 guys for that? For many of the current young players we risking the Beasley/Juancho scenario, to lose talented prospects almost for nothing without ever using them seriously. In 2022 Denver will sign (probably) a max contract with MPJ while Jokic (probably) going super-max with Murray on max until at least 2025. So, 2021 summer will be the last opportunity to do something creative, and with "4th star" we can create a dynasty using for the rest of the team players under rookie contracts and cheap veterans.
Green is not a backup Sf, he spent most of the last few years playing backup Center, he cannot even start to guard undersized Sfs on the perimeter. Harris is too small to guard guys like Lebron, and Dozier is very unproven. That is why I keep harping on needing a guy who can guard combo forwards, Green struggles with them even.
I am not worried about a 4th star, it has no long term benefit. 1 team in the history of the league has won with 4 stars in their prime, and that team had 4 stars happy to put their stats aside for the good of the team.
3 star teams win all the time, but without the proper role players they don't win either.
You still have yet to answer who you are cutting. YOu have yet to answer where the minutes for your guys come from. All this brings up another question, how are you going to package a bunch of guys that cannot get minutes for a superstar? YOu bring up Juancho and Beasley, their trade value was so low due to lack of minutes, so how do 9 guards build value for a superstar trade.
You also did not answer
Who to cut is an overrated question. There is no team with 15 "must stay" players. For example, if we waive Cancar or send Hampton to G-League (Malone will not use him except in garbage time of blowouts anyway this season), I don't think it will be the end of the world. I didn't say Green should play SF if we trade Barton for a player who is not SF, but that he (and Bol, Harris, Dozier) can play on SF some minutes when MPJ is on the bench. BTW, I guess you noted that I agreed that Kyle Anderson for Barton would be a good trade, and this was the only plan-B scenario for a similar deal with Bucks involved.
The best ring-winning formula is a way more interesting question. BIG3 (all three all-stars) with several useful role players is a classic scheme, but If you take look more closely at all 21st-century cases, there are arguably three other often-used patterns too. One is TWO SUPERSTARS who are both TOP5 players (not literally, for example, today almost 10 players can be called TOP5 level). And another winning pattern is BIG4 where one must be a superstar and not all 4 necessary of all-star level (as I pointed already before we need some non-center of Jrue Holiday level, which means TOP40 or at least TOP50 player). GSW superteam is the only exception because they have two TOP5 superstars and BIG4 too at the same time, actually, Miami was also an exception when they have 2-superstars but also BIG3. The 4th pattern was Batman-Robin with depth with one superstar, one all-star, and a couple of notable players.
Batman and Robin with a couple of notable teammates: 2013 James-Wade Heat (Wade is not TOP5 anymore, Bosh all-star level neither, while 37y old Ray Allen was still notable) 2010 2009 Kobe-Gasol Lakers (Gasol flirted with TOP5 status, but that was Kobe's Lakers, while Odom, Bynum, Artest are notable) 2006 Wade-Shaq Heat (Shaq was not TOP5 anymore, while Walker, J-Will, and 35+ veterans Mourning and Payton was notable) 2003 Duncan-Parker Spurs (Ginobili was notable but still no breakthrough into a star, Stephen Jackson and 37y Robinson was notable too) 2000 Shaq-Kobe Lakers (21y all-star Kobe's breakthrough into TOP5 happens very next season)
BIG4 including superstar: 2019 Kawhi+Siakam-Lowry-M.Gasol (thanks to defense Marc Gasol was arguably still TOP50 player that season) 2018 2017 Durant+Curry+Klay-Green Warriors 2014 Duncan+Kawhi-Ginobili-Parker (young Kawhi was still not TOP5 player that year) 2011 Nowitzki+Kidd-Marion-Terry Mavs (they are BIG5 that season, but injured Butler missed playoff so I call it BIG4 case) 2008 Garnett+Pierce-Allen-Rondo Celtics (it was called BIG3 era in Celtics by media, but thanks to Rondo it was clearly BIG4 case) 2004 Billups-B.Wallace-R.Wallace-Hamilton (despite no big superstar, it is safe to call it as special BIG4 case)
Denver Nuggets if win the title in near future can do it using any of these 4 scenarios: - 2 TOP5 superstars if they use Murray/Porter to get TOP5 player (Harden for example), or even if Murray or Porter rises into TOP5 - Batman&Robin with Jokic and Murray if MPJ never reaches all-star level and Nuggets stay one of deepest teams despite future cap problem - BIG3 with depth with Jokic, Murray, and Porter as all-three all-stars at the same time - BIG4 with MPJ improving into (near) all-star and we get another TOP40 player (via trade?, Harris back to TS%60%?, Bol's breakthrough?)
I advocate the BIG4 scenario with the arrival TOP40/TOP50 player with a long-term contract to already locked Jokic-Murray-Porter trio because trying to have several good role players with BIG3 is actually harder. We can't compete with desperate lottery teams or other with better cap case, so we lost Grant, Bucks lost Brogdon, Celtics lost Hayward... etc...
2021 contenders profiles: 2-superstars: Lakers Betman&Robin: Nets, Clippers, Heat, Mavs, Blazers BIG3: Sixers, Raptors BIG4: Bucks, Celtics, Jazz (Tatum and Mitchell still must prove they are close superstars, while B.Lopez, Smart, Bogdanovic, and Conley that they are TOP50)
THE J0KER wrote:This season it will be more just insurance for Gary Harris our player with the biggest injury issues past two seasons who played unrecovered from injury in the 2019 playoff and should miss the 2020 playoff if it was not played in August. G.Allen is a long term project, but DiVincenzo in his sophomore season already rises close to the two-way starter, which means Denver will be in a perfect position during the 2021 offseason when Bol Bol and Monte Morris be available for trades to create a "big package" of assets (Harris+Morris+Bol+2021) to take notable guard or forward as "The 4th star". If DiVincenzo improves into starter level we can use that package to get notable forward to join MPJ, if not, that "4th star" should be a guard with Campazzo, Hampton, Dozier, Allen, and DiVincenzo being backcourt backups. Talking about SF backup this season after such trade, Green can be used in that role. Last season, only when Kawhi and George are both on the bench Clippers need other SF, and they used Harkless for that, so Green and Morris played only PF. Even Bol can be used a few minutes as SF, and we see in preseason Malone wants to use 3-guard lineups more often than last season, with Dozier or Harris in temporary SF role.
I will explain once again why I advocate for the "big package for one notable TOP50 player" scenario. This offseason I was all in for the Jrue Holiday deal, and next season some other available guard or forward of that level will be my new target (Murray is combo guard, MPJ is a combo forward, so we can add that new starter from any position except center). Denver literally has too many NBA level talents. For regular season purposes that is a huge advantage. Starters can play fewer minutes, or as we saw last season when Jokic and Muray were healthy and the other three starters were out, we still beating opponents left and right without a problem, and also thanks to that depth Nuggets have a spectacular winning record in back-to-back matches. But once the playoff starts for what we need 15 good players? If Jokic and Murray play near 40 minutes, MPJ about 35, Harris about 30, and Millsap+Green together cover completely 48 PF minutes, these 6 players covering all but around 50 minutes. Do we really need 9 guys for that? For many of the current young players we risking the Beasley/Juancho scenario, to lose talented prospects almost for nothing without ever using them seriously. In 2022 Denver will sign (probably) a max contract with MPJ while Jokic (probably) going super-max with Murray on max until at least 2025. So, 2021 summer will be the last opportunity to do something creative, and with "4th star" we can create a dynasty using for the rest of the team players under rookie contracts and cheap veterans.
Green is not a backup Sf, he spent most of the last few years playing backup Center, he cannot even start to guard undersized Sfs on the perimeter. Harris is too small to guard guys like Lebron, and Dozier is very unproven. That is why I keep harping on needing a guy who can guard combo forwards, Green struggles with them even.
I am not worried about a 4th star, it has no long term benefit. 1 team in the history of the league has won with 4 stars in their prime, and that team had 4 stars happy to put their stats aside for the good of the team.
3 star teams win all the time, but without the proper role players they don't win either.
You still have yet to answer who you are cutting. YOu have yet to answer where the minutes for your guys come from. All this brings up another question, how are you going to package a bunch of guys that cannot get minutes for a superstar? YOu bring up Juancho and Beasley, their trade value was so low due to lack of minutes, so how do 9 guards build value for a superstar trade.
You also did not answer
Who to cut is an overrated question. There is no team with 15 "must stay" players. For example, if we waive Cancar or send Hampton to G-League (Malone will not use him except in garbage time of blowouts anyway this season), I don't think it will be the end of the world. I didn't say Green should play SF if we trade Barton for a player who is not SF, but that he (and Bol, Harris, Dozier) can play on SF some minutes when MPJ is on the bench. BTW, I guess you noted that I agreed that Kyle Anderson for Barton would be a good trade, and this was the only plan-B scenario for a similar deal with Bucks involved.
The best ring-winning formula is a way more interesting question. BIG3 (all three all-stars) with several useful role players is a classic scheme, but If you take look more closely at all 21st-century cases, there are arguably two other often-used patterns too. One is TWO SUPERSTARS who are both TOP5 players (not literally, for example, today almost 10 players can be called TOP5 level). And another winning pattern is BIG4 where one must be a superstar and not all 4 necessary of all-star level (as I pointed already before we need some non-center of Jrue Holiday level, which means TOP40 or at least TOP50 player). GSW superteam is the only exception because they have two TOP5 superstars and BIG4 too at the same time, actually, Miami was also an exception when they have 2-superstars but also BIG3. The 4th pattern was Batman-Robin with depth with one superstar, one all-star, and a couple of notable players.
Batman and Robin with a couple of notable teammates: 2013 James-Wade Heat (Wade is not TOP5 anymore, Bosh all-star level neither, while 37y old Ray Allen was still notable) 2010 2009 Kobe-Gasol Lakers (Gasol flirted with TOP5 status, but that was Kobe's Lakers, while Odom, Bynum, Artest are notable) 2006 Wade-Shaq Heat (Shaq was not TOP5 anymore, while Walker, J-Will, and 35+ veterans Mourning and Payton was notable) 2003 Duncan-Parker Spurs (Ginobili was notable but still no breakthrough into a star, Stephen Jackson and 37y Robinson was notable too) 2000 Shaq-Kobe Lakers (21y all-star Kobe's breakthrough into TOP5 happens very next season)
BIG4 including superstar: 2019 Kawhi+Siakam-Lowry-M.Gasol (thanks to defense Marc Gasol was arguably still TOP50 player that season) 2018 2017 Durant+Curry+Klay-Green Warriors 2014 Duncan+Kawhi-Ginobili-Parker (young Kawhi was still not TOP5 player that year) 2011 Nowitzki+Kidd-Marion-Terry Mavs (they are BIG5 that season, but injured Butler missed playoff so I call it BIG4 case) 2008 Garnett+Pierce-Allen-Rondo Celtics (it was called BIG3 era in Celtics by media, but thanks to Rondo it was clearly BIG4 case) 2004 Billups-B.Wallace-R.Wallace-Hamilton (despite no big superstar, it is safe to call it as special BIG4 case)
Denver Nuggets if win the title in near future can do it using any of these 4 scenarios: - 2 TOP5 superstars if they use Murray/Porter to get TOP5 player (Harden for example), or even if Murray or Porter rises into TOP5 - Batman&Robin with Jokic and Murray if MPJ never reaches all-star level and Nuggets stay one of deepest teams despite future cap problem - BIG3 with depth with Jokic, Murray, and Porter as all-three all-stars at the same time - BIG4 with MPJ improving into (near) all-star and we get another TOP40 player (via trade?, Harris back to TS%60%?, Bol's breakthrough?)
I advocate the BIG4 scenario with a join TOP40/TOP50 player with a long-term contract to already locked Jokic-Murray-Porter trio because trying to have several good role players with BIG3 is actually harder. We can't compete with desperate lottery teams or other with better cap case, so we lost Grant, Bucks lost Brogdon, Celtics lost Hayward... etc...
2021 contenders profiles: 2-superstars: Lakers Betman&Robin: Nets, Clippers, Heat, Mavs, Blazers BIG3: Sixers, Raptors BIG4: Bucks, Celtics, Jazz (Tatum and Mitchell still must prove they are close superstars, while B.Lopez, Smart, Bogdanovic, and Conley that they are TOP50)
You DO REALIZE we can't just send Hampton to the G-League, he signed to the roster. We'd have to CUT him, don't see that happening.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose
The Rebel wrote: Green is not a backup Sf, he spent most of the last few years playing backup Center, he cannot even start to guard undersized Sfs on the perimeter. Harris is too small to guard guys like Lebron, and Dozier is very unproven. That is why I keep harping on needing a guy who can guard combo forwards, Green struggles with them even.
I am not worried about a 4th star, it has no long term benefit. 1 team in the history of the league has won with 4 stars in their prime, and that team had 4 stars happy to put their stats aside for the good of the team.
3 star teams win all the time, but without the proper role players they don't win either.
You still have yet to answer who you are cutting. YOu have yet to answer where the minutes for your guys come from. All this brings up another question, how are you going to package a bunch of guys that cannot get minutes for a superstar? YOu bring up Juancho and Beasley, their trade value was so low due to lack of minutes, so how do 9 guards build value for a superstar trade.
You also did not answer
Who to cut is an overrated question. There is no team with 15 "must stay" players. For example, if we waive Cancar or send Hampton to G-League (Malone will not use him except in garbage time of blowouts anyway this season), I don't think it will be the end of the world. I didn't say Green should play SF if we trade Barton for a player who is not SF, but that he (and Bol, Harris, Dozier) can play on SF some minutes when MPJ is on the bench. BTW, I guess you noted that I agreed that Kyle Anderson for Barton would be a good trade, and this was the only plan-B scenario for a similar deal with Bucks involved.
The best ring-winning formula is a way more interesting question. BIG3 (all three all-stars) with several useful role players is a classic scheme, but If you take look more closely at all 21st-century cases, there are arguably two other often-used patterns too. One is TWO SUPERSTARS who are both TOP5 players (not literally, for example, today almost 10 players can be called TOP5 level). And another winning pattern is BIG4 where one must be a superstar and not all 4 necessary of all-star level (as I pointed already before we need some non-center of Jrue Holiday level, which means TOP40 or at least TOP50 player). GSW superteam is the only exception because they have two TOP5 superstars and BIG4 too at the same time, actually, Miami was also an exception when they have 2-superstars but also BIG3. The 4th pattern was Batman-Robin with depth with one superstar, one all-star, and a couple of notable players.
Batman and Robin with a couple of notable teammates: 2013 James-Wade Heat (Wade is not TOP5 anymore, Bosh all-star level neither, while 37y old Ray Allen was still notable) 2010 2009 Kobe-Gasol Lakers (Gasol flirted with TOP5 status, but that was Kobe's Lakers, while Odom, Bynum, Artest are notable) 2006 Wade-Shaq Heat (Shaq was not TOP5 anymore, while Walker, J-Will, and 35+ veterans Mourning and Payton was notable) 2003 Duncan-Parker Spurs (Ginobili was notable but still no breakthrough into a star, Stephen Jackson and 37y Robinson was notable too) 2000 Shaq-Kobe Lakers (21y all-star Kobe's breakthrough into TOP5 happens very next season)
BIG4 including superstar: 2019 Kawhi+Siakam-Lowry-M.Gasol (thanks to defense Marc Gasol was arguably still TOP50 player that season) 2018 2017 Durant+Curry+Klay-Green Warriors 2014 Duncan+Kawhi-Ginobili-Parker (young Kawhi was still not TOP5 player that year) 2011 Nowitzki+Kidd-Marion-Terry Mavs (they are BIG5 that season, but injured Butler missed playoff so I call it BIG4 case) 2008 Garnett+Pierce-Allen-Rondo Celtics (it was called BIG3 era in Celtics by media, but thanks to Rondo it was clearly BIG4 case) 2004 Billups-B.Wallace-R.Wallace-Hamilton (despite no big superstar, it is safe to call it as special BIG4 case)
Denver Nuggets if win the title in near future can do it using any of these 4 scenarios: - 2 TOP5 superstars if they use Murray/Porter to get TOP5 player (Harden for example), or even if Murray or Porter rises into TOP5 - Batman&Robin with Jokic and Murray if MPJ never reaches all-star level and Nuggets stay one of deepest teams despite future cap problem - BIG3 with depth with Jokic, Murray, and Porter as all-three all-stars at the same time - BIG4 with MPJ improving into (near) all-star and we get another TOP40 player (via trade?, Harris back to TS%60%?, Bol's breakthrough?)
I advocate the BIG4 scenario with a join TOP40/TOP50 player with a long-term contract to already locked Jokic-Murray-Porter trio because trying to have several good role players with BIG3 is actually harder. We can't compete with desperate lottery teams or other with better cap case, so we lost Grant, Bucks lost Brogdon, Celtics lost Hayward... etc...
2021 contenders profiles: 2-superstars: Lakers Betman&Robin: Nets, Clippers, Heat, Mavs, Blazers BIG3: Sixers, Raptors BIG4: Bucks, Celtics, Jazz (Tatum and Mitchell still must prove they are close superstars, while B.Lopez, Smart, Bogdanovic, and Conley that they are TOP50)
You DO REALIZE we can't just send Hampton to the G-League, he signed to the roster. We'd have to CUT him, don't see that happening.
You do realize that you quoted a giant post just to ask a question that is answered already (waive Cancar or send him with Barton in that trade)?
THE J0KER wrote:Who to cut is an overrated question. There is no team with 15 "must stay" players. For example, if we waive Cancar or send Hampton to G-League (Malone will not use him except in garbage time of blowouts anyway this season), I don't think it will be the end of the world. I didn't say Green should play SF if we trade Barton for a player who is not SF, but that he (and Bol, Harris, Dozier) can play on SF some minutes when MPJ is on the bench. BTW, I guess you noted that I agreed that Kyle Anderson for Barton would be a good trade, and this was the only plan-B scenario for a similar deal with Bucks involved.
The best ring-winning formula is a way more interesting question. BIG3 (all three all-stars) with several useful role players is a classic scheme, but If you take look more closely at all 21st-century cases, there are arguably two other often-used patterns too. One is TWO SUPERSTARS who are both TOP5 players (not literally, for example, today almost 10 players can be called TOP5 level). And another winning pattern is BIG4 where one must be a superstar and not all 4 necessary of all-star level (as I pointed already before we need some non-center of Jrue Holiday level, which means TOP40 or at least TOP50 player). GSW superteam is the only exception because they have two TOP5 superstars and BIG4 too at the same time, actually, Miami was also an exception when they have 2-superstars but also BIG3. The 4th pattern was Batman-Robin with depth with one superstar, one all-star, and a couple of notable players.
Batman and Robin with a couple of notable teammates: 2013 James-Wade Heat (Wade is not TOP5 anymore, Bosh all-star level neither, while 37y old Ray Allen was still notable) 2010 2009 Kobe-Gasol Lakers (Gasol flirted with TOP5 status, but that was Kobe's Lakers, while Odom, Bynum, Artest are notable) 2006 Wade-Shaq Heat (Shaq was not TOP5 anymore, while Walker, J-Will, and 35+ veterans Mourning and Payton was notable) 2003 Duncan-Parker Spurs (Ginobili was notable but still no breakthrough into a star, Stephen Jackson and 37y Robinson was notable too) 2000 Shaq-Kobe Lakers (21y all-star Kobe's breakthrough into TOP5 happens very next season)
BIG4 including superstar: 2019 Kawhi+Siakam-Lowry-M.Gasol (thanks to defense Marc Gasol was arguably still TOP50 player that season) 2018 2017 Durant+Curry+Klay-Green Warriors 2014 Duncan+Kawhi-Ginobili-Parker (young Kawhi was still not TOP5 player that year) 2011 Nowitzki+Kidd-Marion-Terry Mavs (they are BIG5 that season, but injured Butler missed playoff so I call it BIG4 case) 2008 Garnett+Pierce-Allen-Rondo Celtics (it was called BIG3 era in Celtics by media, but thanks to Rondo it was clearly BIG4 case) 2004 Billups-B.Wallace-R.Wallace-Hamilton (despite no big superstar, it is safe to call it as special BIG4 case)
Denver Nuggets if win the title in near future can do it using any of these 4 scenarios: - 2 TOP5 superstars if they use Murray/Porter to get TOP5 player (Harden for example), or even if Murray or Porter rises into TOP5 - Batman&Robin with Jokic and Murray if MPJ never reaches all-star level and Nuggets stay one of deepest teams despite future cap problem - BIG3 with depth with Jokic, Murray, and Porter as all-three all-stars at the same time - BIG4 with MPJ improving into (near) all-star and we get another TOP40 player (via trade?, Harris back to TS%60%?, Bol's breakthrough?)
I advocate the BIG4 scenario with a join TOP40/TOP50 player with a long-term contract to already locked Jokic-Murray-Porter trio because trying to have several good role players with BIG3 is actually harder. We can't compete with desperate lottery teams or other with better cap case, so we lost Grant, Bucks lost Brogdon, Celtics lost Hayward... etc...
2021 contenders profiles: 2-superstars: Lakers Betman&Robin: Nets, Clippers, Heat, Mavs, Blazers BIG3: Sixers, Raptors BIG4: Bucks, Celtics, Jazz (Tatum and Mitchell still must prove they are close superstars, while B.Lopez, Smart, Bogdanovic, and Conley that they are TOP50)
You DO REALIZE we can't just send Hampton to the G-League, he signed to the roster. We'd have to CUT him, don't see that happening.
You do realize that you quoted a giant post just to ask a question that is answered already (waive Cancar or send him with Barton in that trade)?
No, that was one of two options you suggested, I never disagreed with the other one. Just stopped reading the book at that point, couldn't get past that one
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose
