Nuggets Trades

[Alatan]

Another idea for trading Murray is what if you could do a 4 team deal with the 76ers, KNicks, and Hawks?

76ers Simmons and Thybulle for Murray and Snell.

The 76ers seem to want to move Simmons and I think Murray and Embiid would be a deadly pair, especially with Harris as the 3rd option and the 3 and d guys they already have to surround them.

Atlanta trade Hunter, Collins, Huerter, Snell and 2 future 1st for Simmons and Dozier?

Atlanta gets their 2nd ball handler in Simmons who improves their defense and can play as a big in the Hawks system, which I think is more his natural position. Dozier gives them a nice bench defender that they will also need moving Hunter.

The Knicks get Barton and Thybulle for taking them into their cap room. Barton will have value as a stabilizing veteran and may get them a pick at the deadline, and Thybulle is a perimeter defender they can develop.

Denver trades Murray, Barton, and Dozier for Hunter, Collins, Huerter, and 2 future 1st round picks.

We end up with Collins who I think is a great fit at PF for MPJ and Jokic, Hunter is a good defensive swing forward that can be a huge upgrade on Dozier, and Huerter would be a great bench sniper to pair with Campazzo.

I dont know is Collins such a great fit for us. Sure offensively he would be great but defensively i dont think he has the awareness or the length to be a good rim protector/help defender. It would amplify our weak backline and introduce one more guy that wants to shoot it.

I saw a tweet early in training camp that the Hawks are a team taht the Nuggets have had discussions with over the offseason. No players no other information, but if things did not go well early to watch the Hawks. So I have watched a lot of Hawks games.

Collins is a lot better defender than casuals and young fans will ever give him credit for being, because he does not block a lot of shots, but there is a reason he has been one of the best defenders for the Hawks the last 2 years. To me rim protection is one of the most overrated stats I have ever seen in any sport, the object is to not let guys get shots at the rim at all. Having to block shots is a failure of the defense.

Collins struggles defending true bigs, especially Centers, which is who the Hawks have him guarding most of the time. While he is 6'8" he is a small 6'8". He does not have the strength or long arms to guard guys who are 4 or 5 inches taller than him, and so he get destroyed by those types. However he is a very good perimeter defender against stretch 4s and big 3s, he is also a solid help defender, while he may not block many shots he does get into the lane and block drives well enough to be the best on the Nuggets at it right now.

I think MPJ actually has a lot of potential as a help defender, and if he is on the opposing team's weaker offensive forward and designated to help more our defense would improve.

Also I am not worried about Collins shots, he will get shots. His issue in Atlanta is how often Young does not even set up the offense, he just runs down and jacks up a long 3 before anybody can even get in place for the offense.

Collins may indeed be a good fit, but ive heard that he doesnt have the best awareness and often loses his man when ball watching.

Since Jokic is not a good rim protector (even as he has improved on that end) we need a guy that the opponents will fear in the paint. It doesnt have to be a guy that blocks a ton of shots, but we need a guy that will rotate on time and contest. If Collins has bad awareness i doubt that he will be there on time often enough to count and considering he doesnt have elite length for the position, timing is even more important.

Then there are the rumors that he turned down a 90/3 contract so he probably considers himself a max player and might not want to be the guy that plays defense and gets to finish shots as a 3rd option.

The guy that probably fits much better is Siakam even as he is less talented as a scorer.

[Alatan]

I'd rather keep Harris & Murray; but you make a good point. It would be difficult to turn down Siakim & OG. The right forwards are harder to find than the right guards, simply because there are more guys 6'6" and under than 6'6" and over.

Am I mistaken or are we running fewer Jokic-Murray pick-n-rolls than we did during the playoffs?
That pick-n-roll has been effective; but then again, Jokic in the high post with players moving was effective and we don't see that as much as we did a couple of years ago. Is that because Malone likes to be in control - calling plays?

I dont know what Malone is doing but i want to trade him too lol. Seriously id love to see a fresh face as the Nuggets coach.

This just comes back to, who do you KNOW is a better coach and can you get him/her to come to Denver ?

Id be willing to give Atkinson a shot. He is not necessarily better, could be worse, but im tired of seeing Malones stagnant offenses and overtuned defenses.
I dont like the way our defenses collapse in the pain at the 1st sign of penetration and then unsuccessfully scramble to defend corner threes. One help defender is more than enough IMO. I also dont like how we hedge the PnR, with the weak side defender sliding down to tag the roll man completely letting his man unguarded giving up another three.
I hate how there is so little movement in our offense. So few offball screens, slip screens, backline cuts. Its either clearing the side for Jokic post ups, Murray and Jokic PnR, Jokic dribble handoffs or most commonly now just Jokic getting the ball and everybody standing still waiting for something to happen. Even when players cut, they cut randomly. It looks disorganized and sometimes they cut at the same time hurting eachothers spacing.

Maybe the problem is that we dont really have the personnel to play different. I get that Jokic is not a rim protector so he needs help on penetration but i think we help far too much and getting murder by corner threes.
Our perimeter defenders also do a lousy job stopping penetration so the interior gets overwhelmed. Jokic cant really switch on to guards in the PnR, few centers can but i dont think that the way we defend it now is good. Dropping and baiting out mid ranges is better in my opinion. Murray also needs to be better at recovering when getting beaten. He needs to try to block those mid ranges when Jokic drops.
Offensively we need to use ballhandlers more. Murray needs to step up. He will never be able to blow by defenders but he has shown that he can play smart. I hoped he would carry his game from the buble to the regular season but it looks like he completely forgot what he was doing and is again trying to blow by defenders ending in a bad contested shots at the rim. He should use more hesitation moves. Snake it in the PnR and get the mid range he is great at. Play with more composure. He again looks like he doesnt have a plan when trying to penetrate.
We need to move without the ball more. And we need to shoot with more confidence instead of overpassing open looks. Passing an semi open shot to get an open shot is great but the Nuggets really ofthen pass the open shot and then shoot a semi contested shot instead.

So many cringe moments when watching the nuggets. So much struggle to score while the opponent gets so many easy threes and layups.... If we didnt have Jokic we would be gunning for that top pick.

[baksuzz]

if possible, would you make some package of MPJ, barton for Siakam, and Harris +pick for Oladipo to surround Jokic with few good defenders?

[skywalker33]

if possible, would you make some package of MPJ, barton for Siakam, and Harris +pick for Oladipo to surround Jokic with few good defenders?

Siakam is a good player who has reached his ceiling, MPJ is still closer to his floor and is still developing as a defender, it's just not happening. Oladipo is intriguing but he wants to play for MIA, why would we give up our best defender (a better defender than Oladipo IMO) plus a pick for a rental ?? You have to look at the WHOLE picture which doesn't seem the case here.

[NuggetsWY]

Some interesting discussion - I'd prefer to not trade Murray and I'm coming around to wanting to keep Harris. I'd refuse to trade Porter (and of course Jokic).

If we do trade one of our starting guards, it must be for a forward that can defend 3-4 positions and stretch the floor at least 20 feet.

[baksuzz]

if possible, would you make some package of MPJ, barton for Siakam, and Harris +pick for Oladipo to surround Jokic with few good defenders?

Siakam is a good player who has reached his ceiling, MPJ is still closer to his floor and is still developing as a defender, it's just not happening. Oladipo is intriguing but he wants to play for MIA, why would we give up our best defender (a better defender than Oladipo IMO) plus a pick for a rental ?? You have to look at the WHOLE picture which doesn't seem the case here.

I get your point, but Denver has lot of issues on defensive end, Porter might become a decent defender but he is not right now, neither is Murray or Jokic. I was thinking that Denver has to add something to getting out of that extra year on Harris and his 3pt shooting is really bad last few seasons. Oladipo is a better player and i would rather have him for a year then Harris. And that pick is not gonna be worth much especially since Malone is not giving many minutes to rookies and Denver doesnt really have a lot of space to develop players. Maybe offer some young player instead of a pick.

Siakam might hit the ceiling but he is a great player as an second/third option and he would be a big upgrade from Millsap. Someone that can defend when playing vs someone like Lebron, George cause i cant see how they can win a PO series vs Lakers/clippers with Millsap/MPJ defending them. Also i would not give big money to him and he is gonna get paid soon.

And then try to get a decent shooter for Millsap expiring and whatever assets they have left
To me Murray/Oladipo/Siakam/Jokic have way way better chance vs Lakers/Clippers in PO for next year or two then Murray/Harris/MPJ/Jokic

[skywalker33]

if possible, would you make some package of MPJ, barton for Siakam, and Harris +pick for Oladipo to surround Jokic with few good defenders?

Siakam is a good player who has reached his ceiling, MPJ is still closer to his floor and is still developing as a defender, it's just not happening. Oladipo is intriguing but he wants to play for MIA, why would we give up our best defender (a better defender than Oladipo IMO) plus a pick for a rental ?? You have to look at the WHOLE picture which doesn't seem the case here.

I get your point, but Denver has lot of issues on defensive end, Porter might become a decent defender but he is not right now, neither is Murray or Jokic. I was thinking that Denver has to add something to getting out of that extra year on Harris and his 3pt shooting is really bad last few seasons. Oladipo is a better player and i would rather have him for a year then Harris. And that pick is not gonna be worth much especially since Malone is not giving many minutes to rookies and Denver doesnt really have a lot of space to develop players. Maybe offer some young player instead of a pick.

Siakam might hit the ceiling but he is a great player as an second/third option and he would be a big upgrade from Millsap. Someone that can defend when playing vs someone like Lebron, George cause i cant see how they can win a PO series vs Lakers/clippers with Millsap/MPJ defending them. Also i would not give big money to him and he is gonna get paid soon.

And then try to get a decent shooter for Millsap expiring and whatever assets they have left
To me Murray/Oladipo/Siakam/Jokic have way way better chance vs Lakers/Clippers in PO for next year or two then Murray/Harris/MPJ/Jokic

Not that I can't see your opinion, but as you pointed out, Siakam is a 2nd or 3rd option while I can easily see that MPJ has #1 potential, it's why many TOR fans want that trade to happen. It doesn't make sense to sacrifice the future for a downgrade. DEN has always been patient in developing its team and it's players, we've seen that teams that want to make that quick jump don't always pan out. And then furthermore, trading MPJ and Barton, what happens to our SF position ?? You've taken away our #1 and #2 SF options, Bol is not ready to man that full time ?? This portion of your trade proposal helps TOR much more than it helps the Nuggets, makes me bet you're a TOR fan (but I've been wrong before).

As for Oladipo, he definitely is the better all-around player and would be an upgrade. However, he has publicly stated he wants to play in MIA and is on an expiring contract, why make a trade for a 3/4-year rental ??

You may like your idea, I just don't see the Nuggets (or myself) seeing this is good for them in the long run.

[NuggetsWY]

if possible, would you make some package of MPJ, barton for Siakam, and Harris +pick for Oladipo to surround Jokic with few good defenders?

Siakam is a good player who has reached his ceiling, MPJ is still closer to his floor and is still developing as a defender, it's just not happening. Oladipo is intriguing but he wants to play for MIA, why would we give up our best defender (a better defender than Oladipo IMO) plus a pick for a rental ?? You have to look at the WHOLE picture which doesn't seem the case here.

I get your point, but Denver has lot of issues on defensive end, Porter might become a decent defender but he is not right now, neither is Murray or Jokic. I was thinking that Denver has to add something to getting out of that extra year on Harris and his 3pt shooting is really bad last few seasons. Oladipo is a better player and i would rather have him for a year then Harris. And that pick is not gonna be worth much especially since Malone is not giving many minutes to rookies and Denver doesnt really have a lot of space to develop players. Maybe offer some young player instead of a pick.

Siakam might hit the ceiling but he is a great player as an second/third option and he would be a big upgrade from Millsap. Someone that can defend when playing vs someone like Lebron, George cause i cant see how they can win a PO series vs Lakers/clippers with Millsap/MPJ defending them. Also i would not give big money to him and he is gonna get paid soon.

And then try to get a decent shooter for Millsap expiring and whatever assets they have left
To me Murray/Oladipo/Siakam/Jokic have way way better chance vs Lakers/Clippers in PO for next year or two then Murray/Harris/MPJ/Jokic

In regards to the statement above that is bolded and underlined:
Porter is young and while he may or may not become a great defender, he is improving on the defensive end.
Murray has improved on the defensive end and like Porter, he may or may not become a great defender.
But only fans that do not watch games carefully and do not understand advanced statistics while say Jokic isn't a decent defender. The problem is, casual fans think the only good defensive centers are the ones that block shots. Jokic defends the paint and makes it difficult for others to score close to the basket. He is also difficult to back down. Others know much more about advanced statistics than I do and they have shared those on RealGM many times.

I would welcome Siakam on the Nuggets, but would never trade Porter for him. If you want value for Siakam, I'd suggest Millsap or Barton and a couple of 1sts. Maybe Harris and a long-shot at Murray; but those won't include much added value, if any.

[THE J0KER]

Miami wants Beal. Maybe we can join that deal as 3rd party?

MIAMI: B.Beal, V.Cancar
WASHINGTON: D.Robinson, K.Nunn, P.Achiuwa, G.Harris, W.Barton, PJ Dozier, KZ Okpala, DEN2021, MIA(2025, 2027, SWAP2026)
DENVER: T.Herro, T.Brown, I.Smith, A.Iguodala

Or 4 teams deal:
MIAMI: B.Beal, V.Cancar
WASHINGTON: Z.LaVine, D.Robinson, W.Barton, PJ Dozier, MIA2025, MIA2027, SWAP-MIA2026
CHICAGO: K.Nunn, P.Achiuwa, G.Harris, KZ Okpala, DEN2021
DENVER: T.Herro, T.Brown, I.Smith, A.Iguodala

[Timmyyy]

I am really happy to have Michael Porter on the Nuggets and see no need to trade him at all, eventhough I indicated that I like some possible Siakam trades involving him. So I don't have any problem with the conclusion you guys get to (that MPJ ist untouchable). But in my eyes some of the things said are a little bit exaggerating and misleading.

For example "Siakam is what he is and Michael Porter has just started his growth". Might be true, but misleading. Between Siakam and MPJ there ist still a gulf of difference in impact on the game. Siakam was a Top20 Player the last few years. So MPJ has a freaking long way to go to catch up on him. Is it possible...yes. Is it probable...maybe. Is it a given...definitely not. Which leads me to the second point...

"Siakam is a good 2nd or 3rd guy while MPJ could be a Nr 1"
First, Siakam was a Nr 1 last year and had a great impact until the bubble, but that isn't my main point (he would be second or third on the Nuggets anyway, as is/will be MPJ).
Second, you can be a worse player being a number one option on offense than a highly impactful 2nd or 3rd.
Third, MPJ will never be our Nr 1 as long as Jokic is here.
Fourth, you always have to look at probabilities. The probability that MPJ becomes a better player than Siakam is bigger than 0, but no matter if Nuggets fans like it or not, it's way smaller than we pretend it is. I personally see a realistic high end outcome for Porter right around the Siakam level. Everything above is certainly possible, but how many prospects become top10 or top15 players? Not a lot. And then there is also a big probability he never reaches the Siakam level, again, no matter we like it or not.

So it's perfectly fine to love the Nuggets guys, I do too. But we don't have to sell anything here, so I don't see the need to talk down other teams players and talk up our own.
Just wanna say that on a general note.

But I really had to shake my head when I saw the comment that Jokic isn't even decent on defense. I mean thats the narrative for as long as he is in the league. But even when you don't watch the Nuggets, all the lineup data, on/off data and regression based +/- data nearly never painted Joker as a negative on defense. There can be noise to those stats for single years. But when all that data (with just a few exceptions) over a 5 year period is telling us that Jokic is a positive on defense, you know, it is close to certain he isn't "not even decent".

[Richard Miller]

Miami wants Beal. Maybe we can join that deal as 3rd party?

No thanks, after adding 7 new players, adding 4 more is pretty much blowing it up / a rebuild. Yea Herro can score a lot, but scoring is far from the main issue with the Nuggets and 37 yr old Igoudala and Ish Smith have no place on the team.

[Manolito]

Iguodala back to Denver, looool

Sent from my GM1913 using RealGM mobile app

[The Rebel]

I dont know is Collins such a great fit for us. Sure offensively he would be great but defensively i dont think he has the awareness or the length to be a good rim protector/help defender. It would amplify our weak backline and introduce one more guy that wants to shoot it.

I saw a tweet early in training camp that the Hawks are a team taht the Nuggets have had discussions with over the offseason. No players no other information, but if things did not go well early to watch the Hawks. So I have watched a lot of Hawks games.

Collins is a lot better defender than casuals and young fans will ever give him credit for being, because he does not block a lot of shots, but there is a reason he has been one of the best defenders for the Hawks the last 2 years. To me rim protection is one of the most overrated stats I have ever seen in any sport, the object is to not let guys get shots at the rim at all. Having to block shots is a failure of the defense.

Collins struggles defending true bigs, especially Centers, which is who the Hawks have him guarding most of the time. While he is 6'8" he is a small 6'8". He does not have the strength or long arms to guard guys who are 4 or 5 inches taller than him, and so he get destroyed by those types. However he is a very good perimeter defender against stretch 4s and big 3s, he is also a solid help defender, while he may not block many shots he does get into the lane and block drives well enough to be the best on the Nuggets at it right now.

I think MPJ actually has a lot of potential as a help defender, and if he is on the opposing team's weaker offensive forward and designated to help more our defense would improve.

Also I am not worried about Collins shots, he will get shots. His issue in Atlanta is how often Young does not even set up the offense, he just runs down and jacks up a long 3 before anybody can even get in place for the offense.

Collins may indeed be a good fit, but ive heard that he doesnt have the best awareness and often loses his man when ball watching.

Since Jokic is not a good rim protector (even as he has improved on that end) we need a guy that the opponents will fear in the paint. It doesnt have to be a guy that blocks a ton of shots, but we need a guy that will rotate on time and contest. If Collins has bad awareness i doubt that he will be there on time often enough to count and considering he doesnt have elite length for the position, timing is even more important.

Then there are the rumors that he turned down a 90/3 contract so he probably considers himself a max player and might not want to be the guy that plays defense and gets to finish shots as a 3rd option.

The guy that probably fits much better is Siakam even as he is less talented as a scorer.

I would argue that our biggest problem is perimeter defense allowing straightline drives and open 3 pointers, especially at PF. Both Collins and Siakam have been good against perimeter 4s for the last 3 years, with Siakam slightly better.

I would also argue that Siakam has benefitted greatly by having Gasol and Ibaka at C, and is actually not a good rim protector at all. He is allowed 59.1% at the rim this year, Collins is at 56% this year and 55.6% last year and does not exactly have a great defensive C behind him or defensive team for that matter. For comparison Jokic is allowing 59.3% at the time.

While you gloss over the difference in offense, Collins has always scored more of his points off the ball, without plays being called for him. Siakam is much more of an iso player with over 2/3rds of his points coming off of possessions where he had the ball longer periods of time. While Siakam is decently efficient, it is not a great fit for our offense.

The contract Collins turned down was 4 years $90 million, 3 years $90 million is more than the max for a guy in his 5th year and he is still only 23 and showing significant improvements in his game year over year. Currently Siakam is on a max deal, and at 26 I doubt we see much more growth from him.

[The Rebel]

if possible, would you make some package of MPJ, barton for Siakam, and Harris +pick for Oladipo to surround Jokic with few good defenders?

Siakam is a good player who has reached his ceiling, MPJ is still closer to his floor and is still developing as a defender, it's just not happening. Oladipo is intriguing but he wants to play for MIA, why would we give up our best defender (a better defender than Oladipo IMO) plus a pick for a rental ?? You have to look at the WHOLE picture which doesn't seem the case here.

I get your point, but Denver has lot of issues on defensive end, Porter might become a decent defender but he is not right now, neither is Murray or Jokic. I was thinking that Denver has to add something to getting out of that extra year on Harris and his 3pt shooting is really bad last few seasons. Oladipo is a better player and i would rather have him for a year then Harris. And that pick is not gonna be worth much especially since Malone is not giving many minutes to rookies and Denver doesnt really have a lot of space to develop players. Maybe offer some young player instead of a pick.

Siakam might hit the ceiling but he is a great player as an second/third option and he would be a big upgrade from Millsap. Someone that can defend when playing vs someone like Lebron, George cause i cant see how they can win a PO series vs Lakers/clippers with Millsap/MPJ defending them. Also i would not give big money to him and he is gonna get paid soon.

And then try to get a decent shooter for Millsap expiring and whatever assets they have left
To me Murray/Oladipo/Siakam/Jokic have way way better chance vs Lakers/Clippers in PO for next year or two then Murray/Harris/MPJ/Jokic

Saying Jokic isn't a decent defender kills any credibility you may have had, if you watch the games or even look at stats you can easily see Jokic is a good defender.

MPJ hasn't even played 82 games, to say that he isn't developing as a defender despite all evidence to the contrary and despite the fact that no player improves their defense from terrible to great in a matter of weeks is ridiculous.

Oladipo just forced a trade from the Pacers because he did not want to play off the ball and have the offense run through Brogdan and Sabonis, he really isn't going to like playing with the ball running through Murray and Jokic. Also I do not believe the difference in defense is really there between Harris and Oladipo, take out Turner and we will see how Oladipo does on defense now with the Rockets.

Siakam and Oladipo are both overrated and not guys I would trade MPJ or picks for, they can stay were they are at. We were literally just in the Western Conference finals, with these supposed terrible players we have all playing major minutes. We don't need to make stupid deals for guys who are actually bad fits with the team.

[Timmyyy]

Siakam and Oladipo are both overrated and not guys I would trade MPJ or picks for, they can stay were they are at. We were literally just in the Western Conference finals, with these supposed terrible players we have all playing major minutes. We don't need to make stupid deals for guys who are actually bad fits with the team.

This last paragraph is exactly what I meant with my last post.
It's not enough to disagree with the original trade proposal, the players have to be overrated and bad fits. I mean Oladipo is a good player that would help us for sure. Nobody ist saying he is some type of star (fit might be debatable). Siakam the same and he is actually like the perfect fit. I mean, feels a little weird to say he is a bad fit but somehow you think Collins is a great fit. As I said, a lot of exaggeration in this thread in my eyes.

Agree with most of the rest of your post though.

[NuggetsWY]

I am really happy to have Michael Porter on the Nuggets and see no need to trade him at all, eventhough I indicated that I like some possible Siakam trades involving him. So I don't have any problem with the conclusion you guys get to (that MPJ ist untouchable). But in my eyes some of the things said are a little bit exaggerating and misleading.

For example "Siakam is what he is and Michael Porter has just started his growth". Might be true, but misleading. Between Siakam and MPJ there ist still a gulf of difference in impact on the game. Siakam was a Top20 Player the last few years. So MPJ has a freaking long way to go to catch up on him. Is it possible...yes. Is it probable...maybe. Is it a given...definitely not. Which leads me to the second point...

Quite True and I'd love Siakam on the Nuggets but he is nothing like Porter and cannot replace him. Porter is a pure shooter and showing signs of being a truly great one. Siakam is a big that can shoot some. Which is the better player? That is already debatable, but there is no doubt in my mind that Porter is the perfect fit next to Jokic while Siakam would be a decent fit next to Jokic.

"Siakam is a good 2nd or 3rd guy while MPJ could be a Nr 1"
First, Siakam was a Nr 1 last year and had a great impact until the bubble, but that isn't my main point (he would be second or third on the Nuggets anyway, as is/will be MPJ).
Second, you can be a worse player being a number one option on offense than a highly impactful 2nd or 3rd.
Third, MPJ will never be our Nr 1 as long as Jokic is here.
Fourth, you always have to look at probabilities. The probability that MPJ becomes a better player than Siakam is bigger than 0, but no matter if Nuggets fans like it or not, it's way smaller than we pretend it is. I personally see a realistic high end outcome for Porter right around the Siakam level. Everything above is certainly possible, but how many prospects become top10 or top15 players? Not a lot. And then there is also a big probability he never reaches the Siakam level, again, no matter we like it or not.

#1 player on a team is usually thought of as #1 scorer. In Denver's case, as long as Jokic is playing, that is never going to be the case (or so it seems). Porter could easily become our #1 scorer while Jokic is our #1 player. Even if we traded Porter for Siakam, it seems unlikely that Siakam would be our #1 scorer. I suspect that will be Murray or some other wing player. With Jokic's style of play, that is the type of player that will score more easily.

So it's perfectly fine to love the Nuggets guys, I do too. But we don't have to sell anything here, so I don't see the need to talk down other teams players and talk up our own.
Just wanna say that on a general note.

Agreed - but "talking down" is sometimes just reality. It isn't that Siakam is a bad player! He's a very good player. In this case it's about fit - and as I said, I'd love him here, but I'm just not willing to pay what he's worth. I suspect that is where others are coming from, for the most part.

But I really had to shake my head when I saw the comment that Jokic isn't even decent on defense. I mean thats the narrative for as long as he is in the league. But even when you don't watch the Nuggets, all the lineup data, on/off data and regression based +/- data nearly never painted Joker as a negative on defense. There can be noise to those stats for single years. But when all that data (with just a few exceptions) over a 5 year period is telling us that Jokic is a positive on defense, you know, it is close to certain he isn't "not even decent".

Yup!

[skywalker33]

But in my eyes some of the things said are a little bit exaggerating and misleading.

For example "Siakam is what he is and Michael Porter has just started his growth". Might be true, but misleading. Between Siakam and MPJ there ist still a gulf of difference in impact on the game. Siakam was a Top20 Player the last few years. So MPJ has a freaking long way to go to catch up on him. Is it possible...yes. Is it probable...maybe. Is it a given...definitely not. Which leads me to the second point...

Well Timmyyy, since it's my post you are referring to, I am open to discussion. First, I have said I would very much like Pascal on the team, I think he's a heckuva a player. However, I stick to my opinion that he has reached his ceiling, that isn't a knock as he's developed into a top 15-20 player in the league, is that exaggerated or misleading? Reaching his potential is the best a player can do, I just don't see him growing any further, he's pretty polished already. As for MPJ, again, I think he has just scratched the surface of what he can become, he's only 22yo and really only played 1yr in the league, takes some time to figure it out. Will he become Kawhi/KD-ish ? I don't really know, but I can easily envision Porter becoming a consistent 25-30ppg scorer and he has the potential to be as good of a defender as Pascal is, he has the skill set to do that, in my mind. Given that opinion, I am wanting to see the fruition of that before making the mistake of trading away the player I envision he can become.

"Siakam is a good 2nd or 3rd guy while MPJ could be a Nr 1"
First, Siakam was a Nr 1 last year and had a great impact until the bubble, but that isn't my main point (he would be second or third on the Nuggets anyway, as is/will be MPJ).
Second, you can be a worse player being a number one option on offense than a highly impactful 2nd or 3rd.
Third, MPJ will never be our Nr 1 as long as Jokic is here.
Fourth, you always have to look at probabilities. The probability that MPJ becomes a better player than Siakam is bigger than 0, but no matter if Nuggets fans like it or not, it's way smaller than we pretend it is. I personally see a realistic high end outcome for Porter right around the Siakam level. Everything above is certainly possible, but how many prospects become top10 or top15 players? Not a lot. And then there is also a big probability he never reaches the Siakam level, again, no matter we like it or not.

I took the "2nd or 3rd option" directly from the TOR forum, so not exactly my exaggeration, just echoed, feel free to verify that yourself, TOR fans see him more than I do so I defer. And I won't "disagree" that Siakam was the #1 guy on TOR last year, he was easily their best player, but even that doesn't make you a #1, in my opinion. Just as AD isn't the Batman in LAL like he was in NOP, it wouldn't make Pascal a #1 here either. His reduced impact in the bubble last year does tend to lend credence to my notion he isn't a true #1, but that can be debated. As for MPJ becoming a #1, if he can reach the levels I hope he can, while he may not be a #1 here with Joker (I have no doubt Joker would make it work, the guy has very little ego IMO), MPJ could/would be a #1 on 3/4 of the teams in the league. I think he would already be closer to that had he not been injured in HS, he was already on that path heading into college. As for probabilities, those all depend on the desire, will and effort a player puts into it, and to me, it feels like MPJ has those characteristics, Malone reiterates those often about Porter Jr (Is that just good PR , idk ?)

So it's perfectly fine to love the Nuggets guys, I do too. But we don't have to sell anything here, so I don't see the need to talk down other teams players and talk up our own.
Just wanna say that on a general note.

But I really had to shake my head when I saw the comment that Jokic isn't even decent on defense. I mean thats the narrative for as long as he is in the league. But even when you don't watch the Nuggets, all the lineup data, on/off data and regression based +/- data nearly never painted Joker as a negative on defense. There can be noise to those stats for single years. But when all that data (with just a few exceptions) over a 5 year period is telling us that Jokic is a positive on defense, you know, it is close to certain he isn't "not even decent".

I really didn't feel like I was talking down to the other poster, in fact, I tried to acknowledge some of his points, guess you didn't interpret it that way, difference of opinion there. Trust me, if I talk down to someone, it's more than apparent. However, I, like you, felt he was coming over a bit condescending to try and pump up his sales pitch, he (to me anyway) showed disrespect and ignorance regarding the Denver defense, widely misconstrued around the league. Not saying we're a defensive stalwart of a team, I realize that, but to come over and try to prey upon it doesn't ingenuine me a lot, feels more like an attack which I don't appreciate.

[NuggetsWY]

Miami wants Beal. Maybe we can join that deal as 3rd party?

MIAMI: B.Beal, V.Cancar
WASHINGTON: D.Robinson, K.Nunn, P.Achiuwa, G.Harris, W.Barton, PJ Dozier, KZ Okpala, DEN2021, MIA(2025, 2027, SWAP2026)
DENVER: T.Herro, T.Brown, I.Smith, A.Iguodala

Miami probably only cares about getting Beal.
But they probably will be somewhat reluctant to trade both Herro and Robinson.
But I suspect they'll like this deal. It would make their starting five mighty good.

Washington would have six incoming players with only three outgoing. That's an issue.
Harris is close enough to Beal to be a reasonable replacement.
They won't mind trading Smith and adding Brown in isn't so bad because they are bringing back six players that are 26 and under.
I think they just might like this deal, especially with the draft picks. It'll make them worse this year IMO but better in the long run and frankly, they aren't going to compete this year - my best guess is barely making the playoffs.

Denver hasn't used Cancar much, but they love Harris and Dozier is becoming a favorite. Trading them is possible.
Herro would be a nice fit alongside Jokic-Murray. With him on one wing and Porter on the other, the paint should be wide open for Jokic-Murray. Having Green as the power forward would really make the paint wide open.
Smith is an acceptable bench player that would have trouble finding minutes in Denver.
Brown might become a decent bench SF.
Iguodala is probably not too welcome in Denver, but he does bring some wing defense and can maybe help our team learn better team defense skills. Of course the other choice is to release him, since we'd be bringing in four players and only sending out three.
IMO Denver should make this deal, especially if they could find a way to keep their draft pick.

Or 4 teams deal:
MIAMI: B.Beal, V.Cancar
WASHINGTON: Z.LaVine, D.Robinson, W.Barton, PJ Dozier, MIA2025, MIA2027, SWAP-MIA2026
CHICAGO: K.Nunn, P.Achiuwa, G.Harris, KZ Okpala, DEN2021
DENVER: T.Herro, T.Brown, I.Smith, A.Iguodala

Miami probably only cares about getting Beal.
But they probably will be somewhat reluctant to trade both Herro and Robinson. This deal depletes their bench more than the first suggestion, so I don't know.
But I suspect they'll like this deal. It would make their starting five mighty good.

Chicago ought to jump on this deal. They might want more for LaVine, but this is a pretty good haul: two young guards and two young forwards.

Washington probably won't mind trading Smith and adding Brown in isn't so bad with three young guards coming back. It gives them great depth at guard for sure.
Trading Beal for Barton, along with the young guards is probably not as good a deal for them as the first suggestion. They'd probably want another pick or two for this deal IMO. Yes, that's a lot of picks, but it's probably what they'd want IMO.

Denver almost certainly turns down this one. Harris & Barton & Dozier & Cancar for two older players and a young bench SF plus a good outside shooter - just not a good deal IMO.

[Timmyyy]

Now, since I don't want to spread bad vibes I will try to answer some of the stuff pretty short but since we aren't all that far apart on the subject itself there is no reason to debate that in depth.

Which is the better player? That is already debatable

Sorry but that is not debatable. Siakam is way better at the moment. Again future is debatable and I understand when people don't want to give up on that. But that is again exaggeration of Porters abilities or talking down of Siakam, in a big way actually.

but there is no doubt in my mind that Porter is the perfect fit next to Jokic while Siakam would be a decent fit next to Jokic.

if you would have added offensively I am with you. When we are talking all around game (including defense) I would say Siakam might even be a slightly better fit. But debatable I would say and as I said I don't feel like we are that far apart here.

#1 player on a team is usually thought of as #1 scorer. In Denver's case, as long as Jokic is playing, that is never going to be the case (or so it seems). Porter could easily become our #1 scorer while Jokic is our #1 player. Even if we traded Porter for Siakam, it seems unlikely that Siakam would be our #1 scorer. I suspect that will be Murray or some other wing player. With Jokic's style of play, that is the type of player that will score more easily.

Agreed thats why I said "misleading". Because Nr1 sound really cool but in reality Porter will never be our best player and best scorer doesn't say a lot about quality. That was my main point.

Agreed - but "talking down" is sometimes just reality. It isn't that Siakam is a bad player! He's a very good player. In this case it's about fit - and as I said, I'd love him here, but I'm just not willing to pay what he's worth. I suspect that is where others are coming from, for the most part.

Here we are getting to the reason of my post. I absolutely understand when people don't want to pay a price that is proposed. But I see no reason to say things like overrated player, bad fits or propping up the own guys and talking down the other guys.

Is that exaggerated or misleading?

First I said that because the way you worded it, it sounded like they somehow start at a similar level and one trends up and the other will stay where he is now, when in fact Porter has a whole lot of work to do before he gets on Siakams level. Again I added "true but misleading". I am not saying you said anything wrong just that it was put a certain way, like in a sales pitch, to make the Nuggets side look better. Maybe too much interpretation from my side but I see that all the time here and even way worse on the TnT board.

I took the "2nd or 3rd option" directly from the TOR forum, so not exactly my exaggeration, just echoed, feel free to verify that yourself, TOR fans see him more than I do so I defer. And I won't "disagree" that Siakam was the #1 guy on TOR last year, he was easily their best player, but even that doesn't make you a #1, in my opinion.

That was no exaggerating moment and more on the misleading side again (not sure you specifically exaggerated at all, thats why I didn't quote you because the idea of my post was more of a general observation, your post was more like a case study as an example to show what I mean). He shouldn't be a Nr1 option you are right thats why I added "not the main point". Generally what I answered NuggetsWY is expressing my thoughts the best. "Because Nr1 sound really cool but in reality Porter will never be our best player and best scorer doesn't say a lot about quality. That was my main point." And then we are back at both being 2nd and 3rd best players, which is why I felt to bring up Nr1 is a little misleading.

As for probabilities, those all depend on the desire, will and effort a player puts into it, and to me, it feels like MPJ has those characteristics, Malone reiterates those often about Porter Jr (Is that just good PR , idk ?)

Agree I am positive MPJ will develop great, too. But there are things that MPJ might develop or not. Independently of effort and desire, since talent and intelligence are also playing a role. And to become a better player than Siakam isn't easy. Again it is not as probable as we all hope. But again I totally understand that you guys still want to ride it out to see if he can get there. I don't even think that is wrong or anything. Just saying that the trade proposal in question isn't complete trash just because we love our player so much. In fact it kinda makes sense and is well thought through (the framework at least). That you still wouldn't make it is totally fine but that doesn't make the proposal insulting.

I really didn't feel like I was talking down to the other poster, in fact, I tried to acknowledge some of his points, guess you didn't interpret it that way, difference of opinion there. Trust me, if I talk down to someone, it's more than apparent. However, I, like you, felt he was coming over a bit condescending to try and pump up his sales pitch, he (to me anyway) showed disrespect and ignorance regarding the Denver defense, widely misconstrued around the league. Not saying we're a defensive stalwart of a team, I realize that, but to come over and try to prey upon it doesn't ingenuine me a lot, feels more like an attack which I don't appreciate.

I didn't say YOU talked down TO HIM. I said that I see it a lot that people talk down players of other teams when making or judging trade proposals. English obviously isn't my native language, so please correct me if "talking down a player" (in the sense of saying he is worse than he actually is) isn't a term.

[skywalker33]

Well, this forum is all just a matter of opinion. While I can agree with some of your posts, I can also see some that are YOUR opinions as well. Doesn't mean you are correct, or that I am, just a matter of what each of us project to happen in the future, only time will tell. I do appreciate you pointing out it wasn't ME directly you were referring to about talking down, I do try to clean up my act when I can. And I want to point out I never inferred it was an insulting offer, just one I don't believe will happen based on what the owner has said and including my own opinion there as well. As for my wording, perhaps that is because I AM in sales, so it could be I am protective of my favorite's best interest, but I will not apologize for that, much as I wouldn't in "protection" of my kid.

As for your English, I would've never guessed it isn't a native language, you're doing fine ! I hope you don't find this conversation as negative banter, just as clearing the air for future meetings of the mind.