Nuggets Trades

[skywalker33]

what are the chances nuggets re-sign grant?

Gotta say he's probably priority one for the Nuggets. Can't believe the Nuggets traded a #1 (their bread and butter) for a 1-yr rental.

[Alatan]

I know its basically sacrilege but i got to ask.

Would you guys trade Murray and MPJ if we could get Giannis?

Call me crazy, but no I would not trade for Giannis.

Do not get me wrong, I know Giannis is a great player, but he has too many holes in his game to be as ball dominate as he is, which is why they fail in the playoffs. I would rather continue with what we have than take a chance that Giannis can develop into being a great fit with Jokic.

Maybe Giannis could play less ball dominant and feedeing off of Jokic while also providing rim protection and weak side help. But i agree its probably better to keep developing our guys.

[Alatan]

Let's get back to this Richardson trade, it's really grown on me since Rebel introduced it. I think Barton has to go so I'd propose the bones of a trade like this:

Barton, Morris and 2020 22nd pick for Richardson, Thybulle and 2020 34th pick.

Both Barton and Morris can start for PHI plus they upgrade to 12 spots in the draft or combine 21 & 22 to move up. DEN can play Richardson at the 2/3 while still getting a good backup defender at the 2 in Thybulle and still look for a backup C/PF (Zeke Nnaji ?) at the 34th spot. I know PHI likes Thybulle so we may have to sweeten the offer but seems like a team Malone would love.

Phili values Thybulle highly so i doubt they would want to include him in the trade. Barton is hurt so his trade value has plumeted until we see him back from injury. Morris has a short deal and is looking to get paid so his value is not that great either.

Phili fans want to get rid of Richardson with makes me question his value as a player.

I agree on Thybulle.

As for Richardson, there are a couple of things you have to look at. He was the return on the Butler sign and trade, so expectations for him was pushed way to high by the franchise to justify doing the trade. He was slated as a replacement for JJ Redick only with much better defense, and that is just not his game.

Richardson is a good spot up shooter, he is not Redick. To get in rhythm he needs touches though he was often used as a backup PG in Miami, he likes to have the ball in his hands to get going. As a starter with the 76ers, between all their "stars" Richardson did not get nearly the touches, even when Simmons is on the bench Richardson is often the 4th or 5th option. With the Nuggets he would come off the bench, where we need a more ball dominate guard, and once he gets going he is fine playing more minutes with Jokic and Murray.

76ers fans were expecting a shut down defender like Butler is, he is not a shut down defender. He is a slightly better defender than Craig. He can slow down some guys and he fights over screens and does okay on the perimeter, but he is not Harris. We need a guy off the bench that can guard the small quick guards that many teams like the Jazz have, and can step in when Harris gets in foul trouble or is injured, he fits what we need.

Overall expectations were crazy for Richardson in Philly, and the role he was asked to play does not fit his game, he needs a change of scenery, and is a much better fit for what we need.

Yeah, Phili fans expected too much from Richardson and i might have as well. He had better stats and production in Miami but it might just been a fluke.

I dont know do we really need him as a backup since he is making starter money. If we could get him for Barton it would be great but i dount Phili wants to do it.

[Alatan]

I know its basically sacrilege but i got to ask.

Would you guys trade Murray and MPJ if we could get Giannis?

In a perfect world YES, Giannis would sign supermax next season for the next 5 years, but in the real world NO, even 2xMVP but with zero guarantees that will stay after 2021 in Denver is not worth two supertalented youngsters locked until 2025.

Agreed, i was assuming he would resign. It definitely is not worth it without a commitment from Giannis.

[The Rebel]

I know its basically sacrilege but i got to ask.

Would you guys trade Murray and MPJ if we could get Giannis?

Call me crazy, but no I would not trade for Giannis.

Do not get me wrong, I know Giannis is a great player, but he has too many holes in his game to be as ball dominate as he is, which is why they fail in the playoffs. I would rather continue with what we have than take a chance that Giannis can develop into being a great fit with Jokic.

Maybe Giannis could play less ball dominant and feedeing off of Jokic while also providing rim protection and weak side help. But i agree its probably better to keep developing our guys.

The problem is you have him for 1 year, that is too short to fill in the team around them and find out if it will work before you are throwing everything away.

[The Rebel]

Phili values Thybulle highly so i doubt they would want to include him in the trade. Barton is hurt so his trade value has plumeted until we see him back from injury. Morris has a short deal and is looking to get paid so his value is not that great either.

Phili fans want to get rid of Richardson with makes me question his value as a player.

I agree on Thybulle.

As for Richardson, there are a couple of things you have to look at. He was the return on the Butler sign and trade, so expectations for him was pushed way to high by the franchise to justify doing the trade. He was slated as a replacement for JJ Redick only with much better defense, and that is just not his game.

Richardson is a good spot up shooter, he is not Redick. To get in rhythm he needs touches though he was often used as a backup PG in Miami, he likes to have the ball in his hands to get going. As a starter with the 76ers, between all their "stars" Richardson did not get nearly the touches, even when Simmons is on the bench Richardson is often the 4th or 5th option. With the Nuggets he would come off the bench, where we need a more ball dominate guard, and once he gets going he is fine playing more minutes with Jokic and Murray.

76ers fans were expecting a shut down defender like Butler is, he is not a shut down defender. He is a slightly better defender than Craig. He can slow down some guys and he fights over screens and does okay on the perimeter, but he is not Harris. We need a guy off the bench that can guard the small quick guards that many teams like the Jazz have, and can step in when Harris gets in foul trouble or is injured, he fits what we need.

Overall expectations were crazy for Richardson in Philly, and the role he was asked to play does not fit his game, he needs a change of scenery, and is a much better fit for what we need.

Yeah, Phili fans expected too much from Richardson and i might have as well. He had better stats and production in Miami but it might just been a fluke.

I dont know do we really need him as a backup since he is making starter money. If we could get him for Barton it would be great but i dount Phili wants to do it.

while on the surface $10 million sounds high, in today's NBA he is basically on an MLE contract, which I have always considered to be 6th or 7th man pay.

I don't see Barton being a fit for them, hence the 3 team deals.

[Manolito]

But the question is, what is that third team interested in Barton?? Especially after what we have seen this PO.

I only see two candidates, Orlando (they already have Ross & Fournier) and Detroit (not sure about their interest as they are rebuilding).

I would be very glad for a Barton x Tony Snell trade (only one year left in his contract)

[NuggetsWY]

But the question is, what is that third team interested in Barton?? Especially after what we have seen this PO.

I only see two candidates, Orlando (they already have Ross & Fournier) and Detroit (not sure about their interest as they are rebuilding).

I would be very glad for a Barton x Tony Snell trade (only one year left in his contract)

Yeah, there aren't going to be a lot of teams looking for Barton. I don't think it will be a rebuilding team. But I can see quite a few contenders that wouldn't mind having him come off the bench - if they can find a way to acquire him.

[skywalker33]

But the question is, what is that third team interested in Barton?? Especially after what we have seen this PO.

I only see two candidates, Orlando (they already have Ross & Fournier) and Detroit (not sure about their interest as they are rebuilding).

I would be very glad for a Barton x Tony Snell trade (only one year left in his contract)

Yeah, there aren't going to be a lot of teams looking for Barton. I don't think it will be a rebuilding team. But I can see quite a few contenders that wouldn't mind having him come off the bench - if they can find a way to acquire him.

I am not sure I agree that Barton has so few suitors. What team couldn't use a wing that is scoring 16ppg/7rpgs, has good handles, and seems to be a voice in the locker room, a solid vet. His contract isn't unreasonable and could provide more firepower for a contender. My hope is that we send him outside the conference or at least the division, we seem to come up short with those trades.
Can't see a lottery pick but a mid 1st is reasonable IMO.

[manchambo]

But the question is, what is that third team interested in Barton?? Especially after what we have seen this PO.

I only see two candidates, Orlando (they already have Ross & Fournier) and Detroit (not sure about their interest as they are rebuilding).

I would be very glad for a Barton x Tony Snell trade (only one year left in his contract)

Yeah, there aren't going to be a lot of teams looking for Barton. I don't think it will be a rebuilding team. But I can see quite a few contenders that wouldn't mind having him come off the bench - if they can find a way to acquire him.

I am not sure I agree that Barton has so few suitors. What team couldn't use a wing that is scoring 16ppg/7rpgs, has good handles, and seems to be a voice in the locker room, a solid vet. His contract isn't unreasonable and could provide more firepower for a contender. My hope is that we send him outside the conference or at least the division, we seem to come up short with those trades.
Can't see a lottery pick but a mid 1st is reasonable IMO.

I know of one contender that could really use that firepower: Denver.

[skywalker33]

Yeah, there aren't going to be a lot of teams looking for Barton. I don't think it will be a rebuilding team. But I can see quite a few contenders that wouldn't mind having him come off the bench - if they can find a way to acquire him.

I am not sure I agree that Barton has so few suitors. What team couldn't use a wing that is scoring 16ppg/7rpgs, has good handles, and seems to be a voice in the locker room, a solid vet. His contract isn't unreasonable and could provide more firepower for a contender. My hope is that we send him outside the conference or at least the division, we seem to come up short with those trades.
Can't see a lottery pick but a mid 1st is reasonable IMO.

I know of one contender that could really use that firepower: Denver.

Maybe right now (but that's not happening) but not in the long run, better used as a trade asset IMO

[NuggetsWY]

I am not sure I agree that Barton has so few suitors. What team couldn't use a wing that is scoring 16ppg/7rpgs, has good handles, and seems to be a voice in the locker room, a solid vet. His contract isn't unreasonable and could provide more firepower for a contender. My hope is that we send him outside the conference or at least the division, we seem to come up short with those trades.
Can't see a lottery pick but a mid 1st is reasonable IMO.

I know of one contender that could really use that firepower: Denver.

Maybe right now (but that's not happening) but not in the long run, better used as a trade asset IMO

I think Porter & Murray have given us reason to wonder if we really do need Barton.

(BTW: The reason I don't think Barton will have a lot of suitors is the size of his contract.)

[The Rebel]

I know of one contender that could really use that firepower: Denver.

Maybe right now (but that's not happening) but not in the long run, better used as a trade asset IMO

I think Porter & Murray have given us reason to wonder if we really do need Barton.

(BTW: The reason I don't think Barton will have a lot of suitors is the size of his contract.)

He is a proven starter for basically slightly over MLE money, plenty of teams would love to have him and his production at his cost.

The issue I see with Barton is the injuries, and if he is recovered or this injury is minor than I think there will be demand for him. The issue becomes fit and who we can bring back. I think combined with Morris we could be talking a good return.

[manchambo]

I am not sure I agree that Barton has so few suitors. What team couldn't use a wing that is scoring 16ppg/7rpgs, has good handles, and seems to be a voice in the locker room, a solid vet. His contract isn't unreasonable and could provide more firepower for a contender. My hope is that we send him outside the conference or at least the division, we seem to come up short with those trades.
Can't see a lottery pick but a mid 1st is reasonable IMO.

I know of one contender that could really use that firepower: Denver.

Maybe right now (but that's not happening) but not in the long run, better used as a trade asset IMO

I don't see why Denver would not be able to use him effectively for the next 2 years at least. If I was Malone I would tell him he's getting the 6th Man of the Year award next year, and hopefully a championship.

I'm not saying he's untouchable by any means, but I don't know why you would be in any hurry to move him.

[skywalker33]

I know of one contender that could really use that firepower: Denver.

Maybe right now (but that's not happening) but not in the long run, better used as a trade asset IMO

I don't see why Denver would not be able to use him effectively for the next 2 years at least. If I was Malone I would tell him he's getting the 6th Man of the Year award next year, and hopefully a championship.

I'm not saying he's untouchable by any means, but I don't know why you would be in any hurry to move him.

A couple things come to mind. 1) He's really let us down in the bubble. He knew he was injured heading into the bubble games and didn't say a thing, probably because he wanted to get paid. The right thing to do would have opted out (probably could have just gone on IR) so the Nuggets could have brought in a vet to take his spot, yet he didn't was only thinking of himself until it was too late. 2) He plays hero ball too much, disrupting the Joker offense IMO. He's a good player but it's been proven here in the bubble we can win without him. Using him as a trade chip will improve our team in the long run. I believe last playoff run he didn't play very well either, so there's that. 3) He's be turning 30yo by next season, getting a bit long in the tooth for our core. Plus trading him will lower our salary cap number so we can pay MPJ in the future

[NuggetsWY]

Maybe right now (but that's not happening) but not in the long run, better used as a trade asset IMO

I don't see why Denver would not be able to use him effectively for the next 2 years at least. If I was Malone I would tell him he's getting the 6th Man of the Year award next year, and hopefully a championship.

I'm not saying he's untouchable by any means, but I don't know why you would be in any hurry to move him.

A couple things come to mind. 1) He's really let us down in the bubble. He knew he was injured heading into the bubble games and didn't say a thing, probably because he wanted to get paid. The right thing to do would have opted out (probably could have just gone on IR) so the Nuggets could have brought in a vet to take his spot, yet he didn't was only thinking of himself until it was too late. 2) He plays hero ball too much, disrupting the Joker offense IMO. He's a good player but it's been proven here in the bubble we can win without him. Using him as a trade chip will improve our team in the long run. I believe last playoff run he didn't play very well either, so there's that. 3) He's be turning 30yo by next season, getting a bit long in the tooth for our core. Plus trading him will lower our salary cap number so we can pay MPJ in the future

I like to assume the best of people, so let's just say that regarding #1, he may have believed he would be able to play. I have a strained thigh right now and keep thinking it's getting better, but it is taking far longer than I would have ever believed.

I'll totally agree with the rest of Sky's comments!

[manchambo]

Maybe right now (but that's not happening) but not in the long run, better used as a trade asset IMO

I don't see why Denver would not be able to use him effectively for the next 2 years at least. If I was Malone I would tell him he's getting the 6th Man of the Year award next year, and hopefully a championship.

I'm not saying he's untouchable by any means, but I don't know why you would be in any hurry to move him.

A couple things come to mind. 1) He's really let us down in the bubble. He knew he was injured heading into the bubble games and didn't say a thing, probably because he wanted to get paid. The right thing to do would have opted out (probably could have just gone on IR) so the Nuggets could have brought in a vet to take his spot, yet he didn't was only thinking of himself until it was too late. 2) He plays hero ball too much, disrupting the Joker offense IMO. He's a good player but it's been proven here in the bubble we can win without him. Using him as a trade chip will improve our team in the long run. I believe last playoff run he didn't play very well either, so there's that. 3) He's be turning 30yo by next season, getting a bit long in the tooth for our core. Plus trading him will lower our salary cap number so we can pay MPJ in the future

That's a completely negative spin on what was most likely him trying his hardest to be able to play.

And while trading him would create cap space, so would letting him expire, or trading him in a couple of years. Why not use the cap space on a proven player who works very well on this team in the meantime? And the meantime here has every appearance of being a couple of years with a serious chance of winning a championship.

[skywalker33]

I don't see why Denver would not be able to use him effectively for the next 2 years at least. If I was Malone I would tell him he's getting the 6th Man of the Year award next year, and hopefully a championship.

I'm not saying he's untouchable by any means, but I don't know why you would be in any hurry to move him.

A couple things come to mind. 1) He's really let us down in the bubble. He knew he was injured heading into the bubble games and didn't say a thing, probably because he wanted to get paid. The right thing to do would have opted out (probably could have just gone on IR) so the Nuggets could have brought in a vet to take his spot, yet he didn't was only thinking of himself until it was too late. 2) He plays hero ball too much, disrupting the Joker offense IMO. He's a good player but it's been proven here in the bubble we can win without him. Using him as a trade chip will improve our team in the long run. I believe last playoff run he didn't play very well either, so there's that. 3) He's be turning 30yo by next season, getting a bit long in the tooth for our core. Plus trading him will lower our salary cap number so we can pay MPJ in the future

That's a completely negative spin on what was most likely him trying his hardest to be able to play.

And while trading him would create cap space, so would letting him expire, or trading him in a couple of years. Why not use the cap space on a proven player who works very well on this team in the meantime? And the meantime here has every appearance of being a couple of years with a serious chance of winning a championship.

You're right, it is negative but read 1) again and you'll know where I'm getting that from. Beyond that letting him expire means he will be on the team for most likely, 2 more years. I have an unhealthy vibe he is not going to be a happy camper coming off the bench. On this team, MPJ needs to be the starting SF and SG need to go to Harris' defense as we have enough offense already. Also, we could use Barton's instant offense on the 2nd unit, I'm just not sure his ego won't lash out to be a starter.

Also, cap space NOW would allow room for us to pay Grant, a better fit next to Jokic than Barton, by far. Add in that we could get an asset back (I'd hope for a draft pick) as it's apparent we can do it without him, it seems like a smooth transition.

[The Rebel]

I don't see why Denver would not be able to use him effectively for the next 2 years at least. If I was Malone I would tell him he's getting the 6th Man of the Year award next year, and hopefully a championship.

I'm not saying he's untouchable by any means, but I don't know why you would be in any hurry to move him.

A couple things come to mind. 1) He's really let us down in the bubble. He knew he was injured heading into the bubble games and didn't say a thing, probably because he wanted to get paid. The right thing to do would have opted out (probably could have just gone on IR) so the Nuggets could have brought in a vet to take his spot, yet he didn't was only thinking of himself until it was too late. 2) He plays hero ball too much, disrupting the Joker offense IMO. He's a good player but it's been proven here in the bubble we can win without him. Using him as a trade chip will improve our team in the long run. I believe last playoff run he didn't play very well either, so there's that. 3) He's be turning 30yo by next season, getting a bit long in the tooth for our core. Plus trading him will lower our salary cap number so we can pay MPJ in the future

That's a completely negative spin on what was most likely him trying his hardest to be able to play.

And while trading him would create cap space, so would letting him expire, or trading him in a couple of years. Why not use the cap space on a proven player who works very well on this team in the meantime? And the meantime here has every appearance of being a couple of years with a serious chance of winning a championship.

Do you believe we are going into game 5 of the Western Conference Finals with Barton playing? I don't and that is why I want to see if traded.

Barton is great when things are going our way, when the offense is running correctly and the defense is working, Barton has arguably been our 2nd best player all season. The issue is that when we get behind Barton panics, he has done it for 3 years now, he tries to take over the game and go iso offense and guard the opposing team's best player. On the rare night his shot is dropping he is very good and has won us a handful of games, most nights though he does it when we are down 10 and within 4 possessions we are down 20, and the whole time he hasn't passed the ball once. I used to play with a guy like him, we would not even pass him the ball in the 2nd half if we were down big, our young guys seem to respect Barton too much to freeze him out so they still pass to him and it is a nightmare.

Barton is reportedly great in the locker room, and you could see it for years on the court when guys got down he was the one in their ear hyping them up. He is a good player, and a good guy to have around a young team, but his issues when the team are down make it damn near impossible to depend on the guy.

He was quoted multiple times around the time he signed the extension that he was a starter and that he would be starting, telling me that the front office promised him a starting role if he signed. Oddly usually great locker room guys are good with whatever role they are given, but Barton has always indicated he would not be happy unless he was a starter. Barton was the defacto leader too long for this team to expect Jokic or Murray to suddenly demand he listens to them, Millsap is likely gone, so who is going to stop him when it goes bad? As close to some of the guys as Barton is, you do not want him constantly bitching in their ears about how he should be starting. It is not good for chemistry, and it is not good for the long term prospects of this team.

MPJ should be given every opportunity to start next year, and we need an off ball defensive guy at SG like Harris (if he ever starts hitting his shots again), so where does that leave Barton?

Barton needs to be on a young team that he can help with their development and growth, like he did the young Nuggets. Or he needs to be on a team where the team leadership is good in the lockerroom and he does not have their ear. Someone who will not allow him to bitch about his role constantly. He is a good player, he is a good guy to have on a developing team, he can play a role on a great team, he is just not a good fit for us as a transitioning team.

This is likely our last year to take back extra salary for a while. In 2 years when Barton and Harris expire we will have to extend MPJ and between him Jokic and Murray we will have over 80% of the cap committed to them. Add in this year's draft pick, next year's pick, and re-signing Grant and we will be well over the cap with 6 players. We also only have Jokic locked up for 3 more years, if we wait for 2 years to try to add talent, than you are looking at having to contend in year 3 and hope that Jokic is happy with that. It is a big risk and not something I want to do. If we can add a better fit or two this year, with guys willing to play their role, than there is no reason I see to keep Barton.

[THE J0KER]

The problem with Will Barton is not Will Barton, but Jokic-Murray-Porter Nuggets. Barton is a bad fit for Jokic point-center system, Barton has a kryptonite effect on Murray, and Barton eats Porter's minutes. He has no future in Denver and should be traded now when his trade value is on the peak after the successful 2019-20 season.

...Harris+Barton+Bol+#22 for Jrue+#39+#42+#60...

I'm still with this my old proposal to the Pelicans... Murray-Jrue-Porter-Grant-Jokic with Morris and one useful backup big should be enough for the ring in the next 2-3 seasons if not already in 2021!