Kleiza signed Toronto offer sheet

[Duffman100]

You must not have watched the 2nd half of that season, because Kleiza's role basically fell of the roster. He stopped hitting all the wide open jumpshots he used to make (I believe his 3P% was somewhere in the 20s), and pretty much refused to ever pass the ball, becoming a black hole offensively. Other than that one game in the Lakers series, Kleiza's role during the 2nd half was pretty much non-existant, in fact, I remember him racking up several DNPs down the final stretch of the regular season. To say he was just as influential as Jr was during that run is laughable.

^Directed at vitamin-water

EDIT:
Smitty's scouting report on LK is spot-on.

Lol no it wasnt even close

What's yours?

[Skeezo]

Raps fan here... What's scaring the hell out of me is you're comparing LK to Graham... We had Joey G for 4yrs & my opinion is not very high... BC what are you doing to us?

[melo mvp 15]

no he's nothing like Graham... they're just saying Joey is LK's replacement

[KAVK]

no he's nothing like Graham... they're just saying Joey is LK's replacement

Graham is "simply just a Graham".

[RRFB]

Saying Graham had "exactly one decent game" is an ignorant statement that simply is not true. I used to dislike the guy just as much as any of you do, but he certainly proved me wrong once I actually started watching. I remember several games where our starters were struggling to get things done and Graham came in with energy and put up solid numbers. Now, I don't have the time to go through every box score, but if I did, I guarantee I could pull out a handful of better-than-decent stat lines.

I'm not saying the guy could be a starter, or that he even deserves more than ~10 minutes a game. And sure, he's not a better overall player than Kleiza, but when you consider our current cap/frontcourt situation, I'll take him at the minimum over LK at 20mil/5 years any day. The last thing we need right now is another chucking wing player who can't defend.

[J Smitty]

One decent game? Compare Graham's second half and playoff performance to that of Kleiza's second half and playoff performance of two years ago....not much difference. But at least Graham at least tried every game and could sort of guard people, unlike Kleiza.

I'd rather have Graham for the minimum than Kleiza at 5 mill. But I would also rather have Kleiza at 5 mill and use his ass in a trade in a few months, because he wouldn't be that hard to move.

I watched all of their games in the last 2 years, and Kleiza was a much better player, but if you want to compare stats here are a couple of places to start.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/395 ... ?year=2008

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/394 ... V2b0QlPaB4

Also you may want to look at each guys per, per allowed, and shooting percentage allowed here. According to every measurement Graham is not even close to the defender that Kleiza is, which is sad.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09DEN6.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/08DEN11.HTM

Then you can also take a look at some of the other advanced stats here.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ajo01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... zli01.html

I know some Denver fans love to overate end o the bench scrubs, like Demarr Johnson, Rodney White, Ryan Bowen, and now Joey Graham, but Graham is no where near the player is that Kleiza is. Sad part is Kleiza's worst stretch of basketball in Denver was better then Graham's best stretch.

No one is overrating Graham. And no one is saying he is better than Kleiza. What people have said is that they'd rather have Graham at the minimum than Kleiza at 5 million a year. Kleiza is a little better, but not 500% better, which is what the difference in pay is.

If you're going to spend MLE money on someone, they should at least be some kind of difference maker, and give you consistently good production. That is not Kleiza, and that is the point.

[Nuggets_Talk]

ok analyst 40 year college old drop outs, give me an update when the nuggets make it back to the wcf.

there is no way you arent related to LK

[eathb_au]

20 million / 4 years is very good value for LK.

I would match.

Like I said he played better in a up tempo pace and that was with AI. Then he struggled with Billups/AC, but now that we have Ty as the backup now, he should be more suited. It should also help JR as well as now he has a legit shooter off the bench to come with him so he doesn't have to do it alone off the bench.

Another good thing is that he'd increase the bench rotation to 9 players which definitely helps comes playoffs time.

[KAVK]

Enjoy your ban.


Scouting report on Kleiza:

Can't dribble, doesn't pass. He'll take it to the hole, but due to the lack of being able to dribble, he turns it over a lot. Due to the lack of wanting to pass, he ends up missing a lot of contested shots at the rim.

Has three point range, but is incredibly streaky. Dude's confidence is easily shaken. If he starts out missing a couple shots, he is likely to continue to miss and have a bad game. If he has a bad game, he is likely to suck for multiple games in a row. He has the emotional stability of a rat in a burning meth lab.

Can't play defense to save his life. Too slow to guard threes, not big or strong enough to guard fours. Typical euro softy.


Every now and then he'll give you a good game offensively if he gets on a roll early, but wont give you much beyond that.

Sounds like he'll fit in perfectly.

I agree!

[Teens On Acid]

The last thing we need right now is another chucking wing player who can't defend.

[The Rebel]

Saying Graham had "exactly one decent game" is an ignorant statement that simply is not true. I used to dislike the guy just as much as any of you do, but he certainly proved me wrong once I actually started watching. I remember several games where our starters were struggling to get things done and Graham came in with energy and put up solid numbers. Now, I don't have the time to go through every box score, but if I did, I guarantee I could pull out a handful of better-than-decent stat lines.

Your right he had a few more then one decent game, but it is not like he was someone you could even expect to have more then one decent game every couple of weeks.

You want to talk about ignorant, it is ignorant trying to say that someone that every single stat, and people who watch every single game can see hurts the team is on of the most ignorant statements I have seen in a while. Last year our bench rotation consisted of JR, Andersen, Lawson, Graham, Allen, and Carter, with JR, Lawson, and Andersen ending the season with pluses in plus minus, and the fact that our bench gave away a ton of leads, then that must mean that Graham, Allen, and Carter were the problem. Fact is that Graham ended the season with a -8.2 which is the 2nd worst of anybody on the team that got minutes outside of Allen. It was in fact worse then Anthony Carter. Are you really going to try to argue that the team should keep someone worse then Anthony carter, just because he had a handful of decent games?

I used to watch with amusement while people argued over Rodney White and Dermarr Johnson, but i thought Nuggets fans were past that point.

I'm not saying the guy could be a starter, or that he even deserves more than ~10 minutes a game. And sure, he's not a better overall player than Kleiza, but when you consider our current cap/frontcourt situation,

Looking at our current cap/ front court situation, you would think that you would want someone of Kleiza's caliber. You have exactly 2 options right now, overpay the MLE for a scrub big, or make a trade where you still have to replace that player. Either you want to compete or not. Graham made your team worse when he was on the court, your bench got worse when you lost Kleiza, the extra wear and tear from not having a guy who could play PF 6-8 minutes a game got worse and cost you your starting PF for at least the next year, and yet let's save some money so we can go sign 80 year old Shaq? Let's trade for a no defense guy like Jefferson and hope he makes some sort of difference. Fact is that it does not matter how good your starting 5 is, if your bench continually gives up 10 point leads in less then 5 minutes.

You take what you can get right now, if at a later time you can flip that guy for a better piece you do it, but you cannot continue to put scrubs on your bench and expect to compete.

I'll take him at the minimum over LK at 20mil/5 years any day. The last thing we need right now is another chucking wing player who can't defend.

Kleiza is a better defender then Graham, I have watched enough to know that, and the stats all back me up. And while Kleiza may be a bit of a chucker, the fact is that we need someone else who can score off the bench. JR is not good enough to do it alone, and with Miller now gone nobody you get to replace JR will be good enough to do it themselves either.

[RRFB]

Regardless of what you think of Joey Graham, Kleiza simply is NOT what we need and doesn't solve any of our roster problems. I can't believe how everyones opinion on the guy has changed after one year in Europe. During the 2nd half of the season he was racking up the DNPs because he was playing so terribly. We all know he's not a power forward and he can't defend one, so stop pretending that he provides frontcourt depth. He's an extremely inconsistent, unreliable 3-point shooter and he can't play in the post. Everyone here knew he wasn't worth 5mil last year, thats why no one cared when he left for Europe. What has changed so much between then and now?

LK's role during that WCF run was pretty much non-existant. So if a Jr/Bird/AC bench was good enough then, why doesn't a bench consisting of an improved Lawson, Jr and Birdman provide enough scoring punch now? What we need is an actual big man who can provide interior toughness/rebounding and can spread the floor with a mid-range game, not another chucking wing who can't defend either the 3 or the 4.

I'm on board to match Toronto's offer ONLY if it's used to trade Kleiza, preferably sooner rather than later. When you look at some of the other contracts given out so far this summer, this deal doesn't look too bad, but I'm still not sure what kind of value we could get for him.

[The Rebel]

Regardless of what you think of Joey Graham, Kleiza simply is NOT what we need and doesn't solve any of our roster problems. I can't believe how everyones opinion on the guy has changed after one year in Europe. During the 2nd half of the season he was racking up the DNPs because he was playing so terribly. We all know he's not a power forward and he can't defend one, so stop pretending that he provides frontcourt depth. He's an extremely inconsistent, unreliable 3-point shooter and he can't play in the post. Everyone here knew he wasn't worth 5mil last year, thats why no one cared when he left for Europe. What has changed so much between then and now?

Kleiza had exactly 2 DNP-CDs which were both in the playoffs last year, when Karl went down to an 8 man rotation.

As for everyone's opinion, I cannot tell you theirs, but I will tell you that my opinion did change. Watching the bench come in to continually give up leads while JR was double and tripled teamed and we had Andersen, Carter, Allen, and Graham standing around being guarded by 2 guys while on offense pissed me the **** off. He went through a horrible streak to end the season, but if you cannot see the difference in this team going from Kleiza to Graham and Allen, I do not know what to tell you. Fact is that I did not think he was worth 4.5-5 million, until I seen what lacking him did to the team, and our options to replace him are, now $4.5-$5 million does not sound so bad.

AS for playing PF, Keliza is better at post defense then he was on the perimeter, and he was fine for 10 mpg, which is all we needed. Truth is he is twice as good as Allen and Graham were combined for their minutes, which means he is worth twice the money they were, or $4.5 million a year. If you cannot aknowledge that, then I cannot help you.

LK's role during that WCF run was pretty much non-existant. So if a Jr/Bird/AC bench was good enough then, why doesn't a bench consisting of an improved Lawson, Jr and Birdman provide enough scoring punch now? What we need is an actual big man who can provide interior toughness/rebounding and can spread the floor with a mid-range game, not another chucking wing who can't defend either the 3 or the 4.

Kleiza played 15-20 minutes per game all the way up until the playoffs, if you think he did not have any effect on the team then you are to ignorant to help. Fact is that with Kleiza, JR's numbers are probably better, KMart, Nene, and Andersen are all probably healthier because they have someone else capably covering 10 of the 96 minutes in the front court, and the 1st team is not as frustrated trying to continually get a lead back after the bench lost it. The playoffs are affected by what happens in the season, and replacing Kleiza with Graham and Allen shows what affect he had.

As for a bench of Lawson, Jr and bird providing enough scoring punch, I must ask if you have even watched a **** Nuggets game. Andersen is not someone you count on for anything more then an occasional gimme, Lawson while good needs an open lane to operate, and JR as hard as he tries and as much as he thinks he can, cannot be the only guy who is good in the half court.

This idea of getting a good big with a mid range game that is a good rebounder is great, but how do you get him? You think you are getting one for a MLE in this market? Hell in a year where Gooden is getting more then the MLE, O'Neal is getting the full MLE, Frye just got an MLE deal, where is this guy coming from? Fact is we will be lucky if we can get Petro back for the LLE.

I'm on board to match Toronto's offer ONLY if it's used to trade Kleiza, preferably sooner rather than later. When you look at some of the other contracts given out so far this summer, this deal doesn't look too bad, but I'm still not sure what kind of value we could get for him.

I am not a big believer is signing a guy with the idea of having to trade him later, that has not seemed to work out to well for the Nuggets. However if his contribution went back to what it was in 07-08 or the first 60% of 08-09 then you have a player that can fill a role. If at a later date you find a better option you can trade him then, but it is not like we don't need the guy.

[Duffman100]

Aren't you guys over the tax though? Wouldn't it be signing him for like 10 million annually

[melo mvp 15]

Aren't you guys over the tax though? Wouldn't it be signing him for like 10 million annually

no it would be 10 the first year, then go down...

I think we should sign him b/c we could always trade him in the season (and only get back 2.5 mil cuz he's BYC) or just trade him for a TPE

[The Rebel]

Aren't you guys over the tax though? Wouldn't it be signing him for like 10 million annually

It would only be $10 million one year, next year they are slated to have cap space, and the following year they will have much more.

Although I must say you sound a lot like the Nuggets front office. Fact is that the Nuggets have $58.2 million going to their top 4 players, with one of the expected to miss much of next season they are going to have to go into the tax next year. If they go by the idea of adding in tax to a player to decide if they are worth their contract, then the only thing they will add is a bunch of minimum or near minimum guys like they did last year. Fact is that Malik Allen and Joey Graham are both worth closer to $2.5 million then Kleiza is worth 10, but Kleiza is worth $5 million per year, and I would not want Graham or Allen anywhere near this team for the minimum. Just like last year when we had the same discussions on Andersen, once you add in the tax hit then no decent players are going to be worth it, but a bunch of minimum guys are not going to improve the team.

[melo mvp 15]

You guys are forgetting that George Karl was in love with LK when he was here, not to mention the now owner by name Josh Kroenke (Stan's son) was LK's roommate in college and were best friends. And during the summer league game right now Karl said the Nuggets might not get a big man that's 7 footer, he said it could be a 6'8" athletic forward (which fits LK, Lou Admunson, or Udonis Haslem)... so I would think hope is lost for LK returning

[Exec76]

we officially missed out on Tyrus Thomas

[Dennis 37]

**** that, let him walk. We don't need to pay $5mil/year for our best player's back-up when we're this desperate for frontcourt depth. I don't know how you can say this definitely makes the team better, Joey Graham proved to be just as serviceable but on a minimum contract.

Saying Joey Graham is serviceable is like saying AC is serviceable backup PG too,so why the AC hate? Aside from the last game of the playoff series,i don't even want Joey Graham stepping on the court,he can't spead the floor and doesn't do anything particular well,he's better than malik allen though
Raptors fans will tell you they will take LK over Joey Graham any day of the week

In Toronto Graham played very well the odd time our 4's were injured. As a back up 4 he can be very effective. I'm not sure what happens to him when he plays the 3. Just so inconsistent and brain dead at times.

[The Rebel]

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/16/nugg ... as-kleiza/

Kleiza looks to be gone, although I am not really surprised since the Nuggets went out and got Harrington it is hard to match another $4.5 a year for a guy with a similar game.