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Will Barton Thread

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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#61 » by NuggetsWY » Sun Dec 6, 2020 12:06 am

TunaFish wrote:Correct me if I am mistaken but didn't MPJ play some power forward (on defense) in the playoffs? Didn't I see him switch to power forward on defense often with Grant was moving to small forward on defense? Would MPJ have a more difficult time adjusting to perimeter shooters on defense? Does MPJ need to be near the basket to take advantage of his rebounding?

The big issue with this alignment would be whether MPJ can guard a power forward in the paint. I think he can.

I do believe it was not so much Porter playing PF on defense but more a matter of who Grant was being told to defend.

"Would MPJ have a more difficult time adjusting to perimeter shooters on defense?" He can shoot, his defense is the issue no matter what slot he fills.

"Does MPJ need to be near the basket to take advantage of his rebounding?" His best rebounding seems to be when he rushes the basket as the shot goes up - my opinion.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#62 » by TunaFish » Sun Dec 6, 2020 12:55 am

NuggetsWY wrote:
TunaFish wrote:Correct me if I am mistaken but didn't MPJ play some power forward (on defense) in the playoffs? Didn't I see him switch to power forward on defense often with Grant was moving to small forward on defense? Would MPJ have a more difficult time adjusting to perimeter shooters on defense? Does MPJ need to be near the basket to take advantage of his rebounding?

The big issue with this alignment would be whether MPJ can guard a power forward in the paint. I think he can.

I do believe it was not so much Porter playing PF on defense but more a matter of who Grant was being told to defend.

"Would MPJ have a more difficult time adjusting to perimeter shooters on defense?" He can shoot, his defense is the issue no matter what slot he fills.

"Does MPJ need to be near the basket to take advantage of his rebounding?" His best rebounding seems to be when he rushes the basket as the shot goes up - my opinion.


Then you saw the positioning that I saw at the end of the playoffs. Even if they were hiding MPJ on defense, Malone made the decision to play him there. If defense is the issue no matter what slot he fills, then power forward is as good or bad as another. I don't agree with you that his defense is so bad regardless of slot because I saw his play at power forward as an improvement. It would coincide with where he has mostly played in his youth, under the basket. His concentration on defense was markedly improved.

He did crash the boards because he has excellent rebounding instincts. His height is ideal for a power forward and he can out quick many. Even if you were to start him at small forward he would eventually end up guarding a power forward on switches. Fact is, he can play at lot of positions 2 through 4 on the offensive end. It's where do you want him to play on defense because if you play your best five players as starters, then he has to start somewhere. Why not power forward?
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#63 » by THE J0KER » Sun Dec 6, 2020 1:22 am

Why MPJ should not play PF?

You are actualy right, Porter is equally good PF as SF, but...

Denver on PF has Millsap, Green, Bol, Nnaji, and Cancar. On SF only Barton. So of course we more need MPJ in 2021 at SF than at PF.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#64 » by TunaFish » Sun Dec 6, 2020 2:34 am

THE J0KER wrote:Why MPJ should not play PF?

You are actualy right, Porter is equally good PF as SF, but...

Denver on PF has Millsap, Green, Bol, Nnaji, and Cancar. On SF only Barton. So of course we more need MPJ in 2021 at SF than at PF.


Then you are overriding your best five as starters because at this point Millsap, Green, Nanji and Cancar are not top five. Nanji may get there some day but he is too raw a rookie. Down the road I like him at power forward. Bol is as much a small forward as MPJ. Bol will play both forward positions. Offensively, Bol is a big shooting guard, he just can't defend a quick shooting guard and neither can MPJ. Barton can defend a perimeter guard or forward.

If you want your best five players as starters both Barton and MPJ would make that cut.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#65 » by eathb_au » Sun Dec 6, 2020 2:37 am

One thing that irked me in the past was Raymond Felton making a big deal out of coming off the bench for Lawson despite easily getting starters minutes and then eventually forcing a trade in the off-season
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#66 » by skywalker33 » Sun Dec 6, 2020 3:23 am

THE J0KER wrote:Why MPJ should not play PF?

You are actualy right, Porter is equally good PF as SF, but...

Denver on PF has Millsap, Green, Bol, Nnaji, and Cancar. On SF only Barton. So of course we more need MPJ in 2021 at SF than at PF.


Playing MPJ at SF creates mismatches he won’t see at PF. Also, Barton is not the only other SF, both Cancar and Bol have played SF more so than PF.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#67 » by skywalker33 » Sun Dec 6, 2020 3:25 am

Also, if there’s a competition, I could see Barton playing at SG as much as SF
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#68 » by The Rebel » Sun Dec 6, 2020 3:38 am

TunaFish wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:Why MPJ should not play PF?

You are actualy right, Porter is equally good PF as SF, but...

Denver on PF has Millsap, Green, Bol, Nnaji, and Cancar. On SF only Barton. So of course we more need MPJ in 2021 at SF than at PF.


Then you are overriding your best five as starters because at this point Millsap, Green, Nanji and Cancar are not top five. Nanji may get there some day but he is too raw a rookie. Down the road I like him at power forward. Bol is as much a small forward as MPJ. Bol will play both forward positions. Offensively, Bol is a big shooting guard, he just can't defend a quick shooting guard and neither can MPJ. Barton can defend a perimeter guard or forward.

If you want your best five players as starters both Barton and MPJ would make that cut.


Barton and MPJ worked well in limited minutes last season.

The issue I see is defensively, MPJ just does not have the strength to be guarding guys like Davis and now Favors, in a couple of years he might, but he is still filling out physically.

The other issue is what did they promise Millsap? He reportedly turned down the same offer from the Celtics because he didn't want to move his family, so did they also promise him a role?

That being said, I would not be so quick to write off Cancar. The team still has him listed as a SF, and I would not be surprised if he is in the mix for minutes off the bench. Some things everybody seems to be missing. He had some kind of bad foot sprain in the bubble, so he was not playing due to injury during the warmup games, but he spent by far the most time with the team out of Dozier, Bol, and he. During training camp last year they raved about his defense in many different interviews. Both KBD and Cancar had unguaranteed deals, and KBD was a rotation guy in Minnesota, so they obviously see something in Cancar if they cut KBD. If Cancar starts hitting from 3 he has the handles to be a valuable contributor and sort of a poor man's porter off the bench.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#69 » by The Rebel » Sun Dec 6, 2020 3:54 am

eathb_au wrote:One thing that irked me in the past was Raymond Felton making a big deal out of coming off the bench for Lawson despite easily getting starters minutes and then eventually forcing a trade in the off-season


One thing I have never understood about Barton, it seems like the team and a large segment of fans are willing to overlook any attitude or entitlement he has shown. I don't understand it.

It seems like last week when half of this board and fans of other teams were starting threads about MPJ in the playoffs. I watched the exact quote, and he basically said that we have a lot of players maybe we should give them a chance instead of running the same play all game every game. Sure we all know that he really wanted to say "give me the **** ball", but he had the sense to know that would solve nothing and only create issues with his teammates. It certainly appeared that Malone has treated him better and talked much better about him since that night, which tells me that Malone respected the way he did said it. Yet so many that defender Barton were all jumping on the MPJ hate band wagon.

Barton reportedly is well liked in the locker room, they loved his confidence when the young guys were learning, but both of those can be a detriment if he refuses to earn the job he thinks he is entitled too. Everybody knows with his positional versatility and the way Malone loves him that he is going to play 30 mpg, but he wants the title of being a starter more than he wants to do what is best for the team.

Maybe I am old school, but there was a time when the only guaranteed starters were all star players and maybe a veteran legacy guy who would play a few minutes but only see real minutes in good matchups. Jokic and Murray are the only guaranteed starters, if the rest cannot handle that then they should be shipped out now before it becomes a problem in the locker room.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#70 » by TunaFish » Sun Dec 6, 2020 8:30 pm

The Rebel wrote:
eathb_au wrote:One thing that irked me in the past was Raymond Felton making a big deal out of coming off the bench for Lawson despite easily getting starters minutes and then eventually forcing a trade in the off-season


One thing I have never understood about Barton, it seems like the team and a large segment of fans are willing to overlook any attitude or entitlement he has shown. I don't understand it.

It seems like last week when half of this board and fans of other teams were starting threads about MPJ in the playoffs. I watched the exact quote, and he basically said that we have a lot of players maybe we should give them a chance instead of running the same play all game every game. Sure we all know that he really wanted to say "give me the **** ball", but he had the sense to know that would solve nothing and only create issues with his teammates. It certainly appeared that Malone has treated him better and talked much better about him since that night, which tells me that Malone respected the way he did said it. Yet so many that defender Barton were all jumping on the MPJ hate band wagon.

Barton reportedly is well liked in the locker room, they loved his confidence when the young guys were learning, but both of those can be a detriment if he refuses to earn the job he thinks he is entitled too. Everybody knows with his positional versatility and the way Malone loves him that he is going to play 30 mpg, but he wants the title of being a starter more than he wants to do what is best for the team.

Maybe I am old school, but there was a time when the only guaranteed starters were all star players and maybe a veteran legacy guy who would play a few minutes but only see real minutes in good matchups. Jokic and Murray are the only guaranteed starters, if the rest cannot handle that then they should be shipped out now before it becomes a problem in the locker room.


Remember the beginning of the season when Murray had his usual early season scoring blips and Jokic had a funk where he didn't want to shoot? They still won a lot of games because of Will Barton. He has started a fair number of games over his career (159+) and played his best basketball by far in that early part of last season.

Barton flipped a switch defensively and the advanced numbers that this guy produced only reinforces what was apparent. An Injury took away the bubble just as it shackled his playoffs at the end of the previous season.

Put yourself into his shoes, you play great and win a starting role playing the best basketball of your career and only lose that role when you are injured. Barton is betting on himself. If he can play the way he played early last season and play that way now, he has a fair argument that he should start. He's proven that you can win games with him. He wants a chance to prove how good he is now and he has a golden opportunity to play a big role for a contender.

As he says, Malone will decide.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#71 » by The Rebel » Sun Dec 6, 2020 11:06 pm

TunaFish wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
eathb_au wrote:One thing that irked me in the past was Raymond Felton making a big deal out of coming off the bench for Lawson despite easily getting starters minutes and then eventually forcing a trade in the off-season


One thing I have never understood about Barton, it seems like the team and a large segment of fans are willing to overlook any attitude or entitlement he has shown. I don't understand it.

It seems like last week when half of this board and fans of other teams were starting threads about MPJ in the playoffs. I watched the exact quote, and he basically said that we have a lot of players maybe we should give them a chance instead of running the same play all game every game. Sure we all know that he really wanted to say "give me the **** ball", but he had the sense to know that would solve nothing and only create issues with his teammates. It certainly appeared that Malone has treated him better and talked much better about him since that night, which tells me that Malone respected the way he did said it. Yet so many that defender Barton were all jumping on the MPJ hate band wagon.

Barton reportedly is well liked in the locker room, they loved his confidence when the young guys were learning, but both of those can be a detriment if he refuses to earn the job he thinks he is entitled too. Everybody knows with his positional versatility and the way Malone loves him that he is going to play 30 mpg, but he wants the title of being a starter more than he wants to do what is best for the team.

Maybe I am old school, but there was a time when the only guaranteed starters were all star players and maybe a veteran legacy guy who would play a few minutes but only see real minutes in good matchups. Jokic and Murray are the only guaranteed starters, if the rest cannot handle that then they should be shipped out now before it becomes a problem in the locker room.


Remember the beginning of the season when Murray had his usual early season scoring blips and Jokic had a funk where he didn't want to shoot? They still won a lot of games because of Will Barton. He has started a fair number of games over his career (159+) and played his best basketball by far in that early part of last season.

Barton flipped a switch defensively and the advanced numbers that this guy produced only reinforces what was apparent. An Injury took away the bubble just as it shackled his playoffs at the end of the previous season.

Put yourself into his shoes, you play great and win a starting role playing the best basketball of your career and only lose that role when you are injured. Barton is betting on himself. If he can play the way he played early last season and play that way now, he has a fair argument that he should start. He's proven that you can win games with him. He wants a chance to prove how good he is now and he has a golden opportunity to play a big role for a contender.

As he says, Malone will decide.


Nobody said he has lost his job, his job is open for competition, if Barton is better than his backup than he will be the starter. This is the NBA, not the rec league team. Your job is in danger every day, and everybody can lose their job for any reason. I have spent a lot of time in a highly competitive job, I could have been fired for someone else's mistake at anytime and saw people get fired almost every day. You know that going in, if any NBA player is stupid enough to believe that there job isn't in constant danger than they are pretty damn dumb.

Barton was our 3rd best player last year, nobody is arguing that. 2 years ago prior to his injury Harris was our 2nd best player and better than Murray, that is also a fact. 3 years ago Millsap was arguably our 2nd best player. Does that mean they should get to start for as long as they are here? Fact is for the last 2 years those 3 and the bench have let Murray and JOkic down, partially due to age, partially confidence, and of course injuries. Literally the only guys left that played off the bench are MPJ and Morris, because they were the only ones that performed when it mattered most. Why should any of them be guaranteed a starting job or even minutes?


Every player in the league is betting on themselves, that is not what Barton did. Since he signed his contract he refuses to say anything about competing for the job, he continually just says that he is the starter or that he signed here because they were going to make him the starter. I am not the only one that has noticed it, other fans notice, and the reporters obviously take it that he thinks he is entitled to the job. So if he thinks he is entitled to the job what happens when he doesn't get it? If Harris is hitting jump shots, MPJ has improved on defense, and Millsap is still hitting 3 and being the 2nd best defender on the team, than why does Barton deserve to start?
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#72 » by skywalker33 » Sun Dec 6, 2020 11:46 pm

I just say let the best 5 start. If Barton can win a job and he deserves it, more power to him....just increases his trade value IMO :wink: :wink:
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#73 » by THE J0KER » Mon Dec 7, 2020 2:37 am

skywalker33 wrote:I just say let the best 5 start. If Barton can win a job and he deserves it, more power to him....just increases his trade value IMO :wink: :wink:
I do not agree. We are contenders, so we need to use the regular season not only for better seedings but also to better prepare and adjust the team for the playoff. If there is a vision that we need two-way Harris in the playoff, then give him a starter job and around 30mpg playing time to recover his offense before May, despite he currently not deserves it. If there is a vision that MPJ can improve into 3rd star already this season, then give him playing time and starting job even if his defense still sucks from time to time. We need Green as part of our system ASAP, then give him some extra time to adjust his game to Jokic and Murray. Do we need Bol Bol in the playoff? If yes, then give him some playing time in the regular season, not in G-League... etc...

The Rebel wrote:Barton was our 3rd best player last year, nobody is arguing that.
Barton was just technically our 3rd best player last season. Barton was a Nuggets player with the biggest playing time last season, Malone gives him more minutes even than Jokic or Murray, so of course, Barton raw total numbers are the biggest after Jokic and Murray. Our third best player "per 36 minutes" was already Porter. 20-10-2 (TS%62%) is clearly better than 16-7-4 (TS%55%), but ask Malone why MPJ played 16mpg while Barton 33mpg.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#74 » by The Rebel » Mon Dec 7, 2020 3:40 am

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:Barton was our 3rd best player last year, nobody is arguing that.
Barton was just technically our 3rd best player last season. Barton was a Nuggets player with the biggest playing time last season, Malone gives him more minutes even than Jokic or Murray, so of course, Barton raw total numbers are the biggest after Jokic and Murray. Our third best player "per 36 minutes" was already Porter. 20-10-2 (TS%62%) is clearly better than 16-7-4 (TS%55%), but ask Malone why MPJ played 16mpg while Barton 33mpg.



The problem is that box score stats really only account for offense.

Per 36 numbers are not dependable because a 15 mpg guy is going to get more minutes on his good nights and less on his bad nights. skewing results way up.

Advanced stats like Winshares, VORP, real plus minus, PIpm, DRpmg, Raptor, net rating, and several others try to do is quantify defense as well as offense. They all have their issues but overall you start to see a clear picture. You start looking at those and Barton is our 3rd best player last year.

For some of those stats,
Real plus minus Barton is 3rd on the team
PIPM Barton is 2nd on the team
Raptor he is 3rd
Vorp he is tied for 2nd
Boxplus minus is tied for 6th
Winshares 4th
plus minus he is 2nd
net rating he is 3rd


That is not to say he is the 3rd most talented, but he was the 3rd most effective last year.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#75 » by NuggetsWY » Mon Dec 7, 2020 4:56 am

I do not believe in "5 best players" - not just because that can be difficult to determine. The best NBA teams are typically built around their best player, maybe best two players. The number one scoring player in the league does not always win a championship. I haven't researched it, but I'm betting they usually do not win a championship.

Have you watched LeBron's moves? Every time he changes teams, they swap out a large portion of their team, maybe even half of the players. Did you watch the Warriors build around Curry & Thompson? They carefully drafted and acquired players that fit roles around them - including Durrant. The Chicago Bulls teamed Jordan & Pippen with forwards and centers that were not necessarily great scorers. Most interesting was when John Paxson was replaced with Steve Kerr. Neither were considered great athletes, but they played very similar games.

In my opinion and that's all it is; the Nuggets have been doing a decent job of building a team that will fit around Jokic and Murray. Porter seems like a perfect fit on offense and his defense is improving. While Jokic's defense is underrated, he's not a big time low post defender. Bringing in Millsap made a lot of sense and while I liked Grant, Green can fill a somewhat similar role. Harris has filled a nice role and while I'd love his offense back, playing him anything less than 25 mpg is probably a mistake - unless it's to protect him from injury issues. Morris fits nicely because he's a solid two-way player that is totally team-oriented and doesn't make a lot of mistakes. Dozier shows potential to fit nicely similar to Morris, but a bit different.

We need defense from SG & PF - we need bench defense. We have plenty of offense. 1st & 2nd year players are not typically going to make a huge difference. They need development. Do we have the right players this year? Maybe. Are we better than last year in terms of talent? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. What's important is that everyone has to play their role --- and that includes Jokic & Murray. They need to score and generally assert themselves. They are getting there.

Jokic - misc
Green & Millsap
Porter - Barton
Harris - Barton
Murray - Morris --- that's the group that must work out their roles - together. The rest of the team need to earn their way. Which will get playing time right away? Ask Malone. I will continue to say that Barton makes a lot of sense coming off the bench. Our bench will need his scoring and since he did well last year as a starter, I believe that if he plays against other team's bench players more, he'll be even better.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#76 » by tleikheen » Mon Dec 7, 2020 5:55 am

Green hasnt even been a starter for a few years and I doubt he was signed to become a starter now at 30 years of age......I think Porter will be the PF because the Nuggets best players now and future are offensive players. Porter will have alot of room to operate without a slow player like Milsap or Green. And Barton gets the job done .With Bol Bol needing minutes I think him and Green play with Campazzo ,Morris ,Hartenstine off the bench.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#77 » by NuggetsWY » Mon Dec 7, 2020 1:17 pm

tleikheen wrote:Green hasnt even been a starter for a few years and I doubt he was signed to become a starter now at 30 years of age......I think Porter will be the PF because the Nuggets best players now and future are offensive players. Porter will have alot of room to operate without a slow player like Milsap or Green. And Barton gets the job done .With Bol Bol needing minutes I think him and Green play with Campazzo ,Morris ,Hartenstine off the bench.

Have you watched Malone's rotations? Have you listened to what he says - and does?
He prefers defense. He can't have five defensive players but he's happy with at least a couple of solid defensive players.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#78 » by DaFan334 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:41 am

Will looked great off the bench tonight. Here is what he had to say about coming off the bench:

Read on Twitter


Unfortunately, unless he accepts his role off the bench, this I think will become an issue and we will have to move him. It's unfortunate that he isn't at least saying the right thing at the moment, which just shows it will be an issue until he is moved IMO.
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#79 » by eathb_au » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:02 am

Oh damit
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Re: Will Barton Thread 

Post#80 » by The Rebel » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:39 pm

It is unfortunate he has such a terrible attitude about it. He is the perfect fit as the leader of the bench and made the bench look like the best in the league last night. It would keep him healthier and with Harris being so injury prone I am sure he would still start a lot of games.

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