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Ok, I know you're going to all hate me for this....but i have an idea...mad scientist at work LOL

What if - the Nuggs trade Mozgov/Chandler/Faried for Cousins? Obviously to match salaries we'd have to use a TE, but here's my thoughts...

IF we did this, we inherit a headcase. What better way to control him than.....to bring back Kenyon and JR?

Think about it before you shoot it down. Our lineups would be as follows:

Ty/Miller/Rudy
Afflalo/JR/Rudy
Gallo/Brewer/Hamilton
Nene/Big Al/Kenyon
Cousins/Koufos/Birdman

I like Mozgov, but this is a HUGE upgrade in talent. Yes, it's a risk. I think it's worth taking. The lineups that we could throw at any team at ANY position is going to be the key to this team winning a title.

What do you think? On board? Why/Why Not?

We cant trade Chandler Until he gets released from china and agrees to a deal. i would do Mozgov and Gallo for Cousins and one of their cheaper wings though, then bring back all 3 of the guys in china.

Really you have to think about the Karl factor even before dreaming a trade of the kind. He couldn't deal with a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) (but still capable of acting within his role) like JR, you think he would want to deal with an absolute nutjob like Cousins? Plus you'd add JR too? He'd veto the trade before Ujiri were able to mutter it out.
And frankly, IMO he'd be right, would you really want to add a potentially good player in the far future, who is a net negative now, has a bad attitude completely opposite to this team's mindset, in hope of him developing in a two or three times all-star C (his ceiling IMO)? I know I wouldn't.

Also, I'd bet a good deal Cousins is not gonna be shipped out, so really we're talking air.

The Rebel wrote:We cant trade Chandler Until he gets released from china and agrees to a deal. i would do Mozgov and Gallo for Cousins and one of their cheaper wings though, then bring back all 3 of the guys in china.

Hey Rebel, from a lot of your posts I get the impression that you don't really like Gallo all that much, and certainly prefer Chandler to him. Mind to share why? Just curious, maybe I'm even wrong.

Aeternus wrote:Really you have to think about the Karl factor even before dreaming a trade of the kind. He couldn't deal with a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) (but still capable of acting within his role) like JR, you think he would want to deal with an absolute nutjob like Cousins? Plus you'd add JR too? He'd veto the trade before Ujiri were able to mutter it out.
And frankly, IMO he'd be right, would you really want to add a potentially good player in the far future, who is a net negative now, has a bad attitude completely opposite to this team's mindset, in hope of him developing in a two or three times all-star C (his ceiling IMO)? I know I wouldn't.

Also, I'd bet a good deal Cousins is not gonna be shipped out, so really we're talking air.

If karl would veto getting a talent like Cousins, he should be fired, no excuses. i know for a fact that the Nuggets tried like Hell to get up in the draft to get Cousins, even with his known problems, which are not near as bad as being advertised right now, but I will get into that in a second. Besides that look into the moves that karl has ever had any say in, then get back to me, he should never have a say in personnel moves, he is a good coach (not great but a good coach) but he is a **** gm, and always has been.

As for Jr, for all the problems JR and Karl had, karl made Jr one hell of a basketball player, and JR loved to compete, he is exactly what this team needs, and if Karl can't see it, his bosses should as it is their job to fill the holes on the team. JR would be the best player off the bench the day he resigned with the Nuggets and it is not even close, even if he forgot how to shoot the 3 ball while in China.

As for Cousins mental problems, regardless of whether he asked for a trade or not, the things he is being charged with saying, is the truth, and other Kings players, not to mention their fans have said the exact same thing for the last 2 years. Their schemes on both ends are horrible, and do not lead to winning basketball. The kings refuse to feed the post, even with a post presence like Cousins, instead preferring to have Cousins play more like a small forward with little to no post game. If you watch the way the Kings play, they almost want cousins to be a Camby clone while Camby was in Denver, while Cousins is much more like Nene with a better jumpshot and worse defense. Cousins wants to win, and he wants to be used in a way to fit his game, which is something Karl will do, who can blame him? If you felt you were being misused as a talented player, or even asked to do things well outside of your talents at your job, and then being blamed for the problems on display you would be pissed off too, I personally do not blame Cousins for saying if you do not like him or his game then to trade him, I would do the same thing.

Aeternus wrote:

The Rebel wrote:We cant trade Chandler Until he gets released from china and agrees to a deal. i would do Mozgov and Gallo for Cousins and one of their cheaper wings though, then bring back all 3 of the guys in china.

Hey Rebel, from a lot of your posts I get the impression that you don't really like Gallo all that much, and certainly prefer Chandler to him. Mind to share why? Just curious, maybe I'm even wrong.

I never thought is was a secret that I am not high on Gallo, although I like the version of him a little more this year, i do not like his lack of mental toughness being really good when things are going good and bad when things do not go his way, and I do not like a game that depends on the refs to bail you out, that does not always work especially in the playoffs. I do not think he is the type you build around if you want a successful team in the playoffs. It is one of the reasons I have always hated kevin Martin as well.

I also do not like guys who let their shooting affect the rest of their game, gallo has been noticeably better this year, using his defense to at least help but a good to very good player should be able to affect the game in different ways even when struggling in one way or another.

As for liking Chandler better, not really, I don't like him much either. But he fits a need, he is a guy who brings shot blocking, rebounding, and can still hit jumshots, which fits what this team needs.

As for being willing to trade Gallo, or pretty much anybody on the team for a guy like Cousins, it is also no secret that I believe that you build a team from the inside out, given that the front office refuses to blow up the team and will more then likely never get a pick better then a mid 1st, and Denver is not a top free agent destination, you are going to have to either develop or trade for a good big. Mozgov and Koufos both look to be guys who will be solid long term, but if you have the chance to get a guy with Cousins talent, you take it warts and all. With the hope that you can turn him around and develop him into even half the player he has the talent to be, which would give you a very good PF center combo with Nene, and make this team better long term.

May as well bring Iverson and JR back if we go after Cousins.

I would love to have both JR and Kenyon back. Chandler has stated he doesn't want to be here, so I think he's trade bait either for a pick or a good young big.

JR is by far the most TALENTED player off the bench if he resigns, as stated by Rebel. We need players who can create their own shot - and I'll take JR's ability over Rudy's off-balance 3s.

I like Faried, but let's be honest - you part with him for Cousins. Period.

Cousins would be the perfect center for us. Whether or not we CAN get him, I personally think we need to try.

Well, for the first part I don't really disagree, aside form this:

The Rebel wrote:Besides that look into the moves that karl has ever had any say in, then get back to me, he should never have a say in personnel moves, he is a good coach (not great but a good coach) but he is a **** gm, and always has been.

He may do not good influencing GM decisions, but as a coach he is influent, so I think considering his probable opinion is relevant in judging the likelihood of a trade.


Regarding the second part, I bolded my opinion:

The Rebel wrote:I never thought is was a secret that I am not high on Gallo, although I like the version of him a little more this year, i do not like his lack of mental toughness being really good when things are going good and bad when things do not go his way, and I do not like a game that depends on the refs to bail you out, that does not always work especially in the playoffs. I do not think he is the type you build around if you want a successful team in the playoffs. It is one of the reasons I have always hated kevin Martin as well.
Well, of course style preference are everyone's own, and not to be discussed, just let me tell you that driving strongly looking for contact is a style practiced by greatly accomplished playoffs scorers like Ginobili and Wade, who maintain both the same averages of FTA in RS and PS, so I don't see why you think that it's not a winning style, and while it may be influenced by the refs, the same goes with the amount of contact allowed to the defense each game, and the heat swings of a shooter. You don't dislike shooters and shot-blockers tho right?

I also do not like guys who let their shooting affect the rest of their game, gallo has been noticeably better this year, using his defense to at least help but a good to very good player should be able to affect the game in different ways even when struggling in one way or another.
While I agree it's an issue to have Gallo's scoring game be influenced by his 3pt shooting, it's not like it's an head issue. He is always active on defense, passing an rebounding regardless of the scoreboard, you can't deny it. Moreover, I really don't see this lack of toughness in Gallo, at least no more than any other player in this league. He doesn't stop playing when the team is down, if that's what you mean, and while he certainly has his bad games, like anyone else, he always is doing something positive if a certain part of his game is off. Well, since you think this year he has improved there's not much to debate anyway, I always have seen him play this way on the Knicks, and I can't say to have noticed any particular improvement mentally this year.

As for liking Chandler better, not really, I don't like him much either. But he fits a need, he is a guy who brings shot blocking, rebounding, and can still hit jumshots, which fits what this team needs.
Well he may block more shots, but he really isn't the defender Gallo is, especially on the perimeter, where I would say he's below average. This facet of his game got very overrated last year when he played PF on the Knicks, since it looked like he was having an easier time defending PFs than perimeter players, too bad he was still abused.
Besides, he really isn't much better a rebounder than Gallo, if at all. They both rock TRB% around 8-10%, and is a meh passer and a quite inefficient scorer to booth.
To me Chandler looks like a clear downgrade from Gallo.

As for being willing to trade Gallo, or pretty much anybody on the team for a guy like Cousins, it is also no secret that I believe that you build a team from the inside out, given that the front office refuses to blow up the team and will more then likely never get a pick better then a mid 1st, and Denver is not a top free agent destination, you are going to have to either develop or trade for a good big. Mozgov and Koufos both look to be guys who will be solid long term, but if you have the chance to get a guy with Cousins talent, you take it warts and all. With the hope that you can turn him around and develop him into even half the player he has the talent to be, which would give you a very good PF center combo with Nene, and make this team better long term.
Honestly, I don't have half as good an opinion of both Cousins's potential, and his chances to set his head straight. Given what I can gather from his games and media coverage, I wouldn't want him on my team PERIOD. Much less while having to give away a player of Gallo's caliber to get him.
That's not to say I don't understand why you would take this chance, and it's a very subjective argument anyway, but to me the game isn't worth the candle, by a longshot.

Aeternus wrote:Well, for the first part I don't really disagree, aside form this:

The Rebel wrote:Besides that look into the moves that karl has ever had any say in, then get back to me, he should never have a say in personnel moves, he is a good coach (not great but a good coach) but he is a **** gm, and always has been.

He may do not good influencing GM decisions, but as a coach he is influent, so I think considering his probable opinion is relevant in judging the likelihood of a trade.

Of course he will be given a say, but he should be overruled when it dramatically improves the talent and long term potential of the team.

Aeternus wrote:Regarding the second part, I bolded my opinion:

The Rebel wrote:I never thought is was a secret that I am not high on Gallo, although I like the version of him a little more this year, i do not like his lack of mental toughness being really good when things are going good and bad when things do not go his way, and I do not like a game that depends on the refs to bail you out, that does not always work especially in the playoffs. I do not think he is the type you build around if you want a successful team in the playoffs. It is one of the reasons I have always hated kevin Martin as well.

Well, of course style preference are everyone's own, and not to be discussed, just let me tell you that driving strongly looking for contact is a style practiced by greatly accomplished playoffs scorers like Ginobili and Wade, who maintain both the same averages of FTA in RS and PS, so I don't see why you think that it's not a winning style, and while it may be influenced by the refs, the same goes with the amount of contact allowed to the defense each game, and the heat swings of a shooter. You don't dislike shooters and shot-blockers tho right?

Are you really comparing Gallinari to Wade and ginobli? Also let's get something clear, Ginobli for all the crap he gets for being a flopper, actually has averaged only 6 free throws a game 1 time in his career, Gallo has for the last 2. And the big difference is when the calls do not go Wade or Ginobli's way they find other ways to score, that is one of the things that make them great, Gallo struggles if he does not get the refs to call his awful flops.

You see a good scorer finds ways to score regardless of the refs, so while more contact may or may not be allowed, a supposedly great player like Gallo should be able to overcome bad refs, if everything has to be perfect for him to be a good scorer then he is not a great player.

Aeternus wrote:

The Rebel wrote:I also do not like guys who let their shooting affect the rest of their game, gallo has been noticeably better this year, using his defense to at least help but a good to very good player should be able to affect the game in different ways even when struggling in one way or another.

While I agree it's an issue to have Gallo's scoring game be influenced by his 3pt shooting, it's not like it's an head issue. He is always active on defense, passing an rebounding regardless of the scoreboard, you can't deny it. Moreover, I really don't see this lack of toughness in Gallo, at least no more than any other player in this league. He doesn't stop playing when the team is down, if that's what you mean, and while he certainly has his bad games, like anyone else, he always is doing something positive if a certain part of his game is off. Well, since you think this year he has improved there's not much to debate anyway, I always have seen him play this way on the Knicks, and I can't say to have noticed any particular improvement mentally this year.

1st let's put his rebounding to rest, Gallinari is not a good rebounder, averaging 4.5 rebounds per game is not good for a 6'10" SF, it is funny people attacked Melo for years, and he averaged 2-3 more rebounds per game for years.

While he has been active on defense, he has not always been effective, active is great for a guy who can carry the load offensively, but if he cannot do that then he better be effective on defense.

And Gallo has never seemed to be a player that let's team success get in his way, but instead his own success is his problem. When things don't go his way he gets down and it affects his game completely, if it had more to do with the team I may actually like him more.

Aeternus wrote:

The Rebel wrote:As for liking Chandler better, not really, I don't like him much either. But he fits a need, he is a guy who brings shot blocking, rebounding, and can still hit jumshots, which fits what this team needs.

Well he may block more shots, but he really isn't the defender Gallo is, especially on the perimeter, where I would say he's below average. This facet of his game got very overrated last year when he played PF on the Knicks, since it looked like he was having an easier time defending PFs than perimeter players, too bad he was still abused.
Besides, he really isn't much better a rebounder than Gallo, if at all. They both rock TRB% around 8-10%, and is a meh passer and a quite inefficient scorer to booth.
To me Chandler looks like a clear downgrade from Gallo.

It's still funny to me when people want to argue Chandler versus Gallinari, as if that would be the only difference in the team. Personally I think SF is the most overrated position on the court, and in todays league is one of the easiest to fill. I know many want to change the argument into that, but why don't we base the argument on what I am saying, possibly the highest potential center prospect in the league, and Chandler, or the Nuggets can keep Gallinari and more then likely a TPE and late 1st or early 2nd round pick? Which would you rather have, I think the choice is pretty clear to me, I would take the great prospect that plays the most important role needed for a championship team.

Aeternus wrote:

The Rebel wrote:As for being willing to trade Gallo, or pretty much anybody on the team for a guy like Cousins, it is also no secret that I believe that you build a team from the inside out, given that the front office refuses to blow up the team and will more then likely never get a pick better then a mid 1st, and Denver is not a top free agent destination, you are going to have to either develop or trade for a good big. Mozgov and Koufos both look to be guys who will be solid long term, but if you have the chance to get a guy with Cousins talent, you take it warts and all. With the hope that you can turn him around and develop him into even half the player he has the talent to be, which would give you a very good PF center combo with Nene, and make this team better long term.

Honestly, I don't have half as good an opinion of both Cousins's potential, and his chances to set his head straight. Given what I can gather from his games and media coverage, I wouldn't want him on my team PERIOD. Much less while having to give away a player of Gallo's caliber to get him.
That's not to say I don't understand why you would take this chance, and it's a very subjective argument anyway, but to me the game isn't worth the candle, by a longshot.

Media coverage is always the best way to judge a player? Is that a joke, how about you watch a few games, and get a history of the player and situation before making a snap judgement, Westphal has always been a disaster, and Cousins is a fiery player that hates to lose and feels he is being unfairly singled out despite a horrible coach, a horrible system, and plenty of players on the team not playing up to their talent. Westphal has a long history of being worse with players then Karl ever has been, and has had more then one mutiny, hell the guy could not even get Gary Payton to play up to his potential. Evans has continually complained about Westphal and the system over the last couple of years, but it is easier to blame the guy with reported problems then to go after a guy who was just rookie of the year a couple of years ago. I wish the Nuggets had at least one player that would get pissed off when they lose games they should win, it may actually help.

eathb_au wrote:May as well bring Iverson and JR back if we go after Cousins.

right because a guy who complains about losing is the same as a guy who ignores his coach, or has a long history of only doing what he feels like doing.

Rebel,

I've admittedly seen very little of Demarcus Cousins, but from everything I hear, the scouts rave about his physical ability. I started watching him this year, and I was impressed with his handle and athleticism for a guy that big, but I'm worried about his shot selection and finishing (oddly enough he's missed a ton of shots at the rim when I watched). I saw some statistic that he has lowest assisted score total of anyone in basketball and that obviously has a lot to do with the horrendously constructed roster in Sacramento, but will his mental makeup allow him to undo all these years of bad tendencies? I don't care if he's a locker room problem, because I think that stuff's overblown, but I do care about his ability to learn, improve, and then demonstrate those skills on the court. Do you think Karl could get through to him and refine his post game? It seems like he's happy to play on the perimeter, crossing guys and dropping long 2s. What has convinced you that he can develop into "possibly the highest potential center prospect in the league". I respect your opinion a lot, so I wanted to get a bit more of a scouting report from you.

The Rebel wrote:Are you really comparing Gallinari to Wade and ginobli? Also let's get something clear, Ginobli for all the crap he gets for being a flopper, actually has averaged only 6 free throws a game 1 time in his career, Gallo has for the last 2. And the big difference is when the calls do not go Wade or Ginobli's way they find other ways to score, that is one of the things that make them great, Gallo struggles if he does not get the refs to call his awful flops.
You see a good scorer finds ways to score regardless of the refs, so while more contact may or may not be allowed, a supposedly great player like Gallo should be able to overcome bad refs, if everything has to be perfect for him to be a good scorer then he is not a great player.

Ginobili also never went over 31 mpg in his career. His PER36 number have him between 6.0 and 7.5 FTA per game throughout his career, despite spending half of his athletical peak (age 21-25) in Europe. Also Ginobili is widely considered Gallo's closest style comparison.
Besides, what are this marvelous other ways the two I've mentioned have to score when they don't get the calls? They both just continue to drive looking to finish and draw, same as Gallo, only of course better. Gallo and Ginobili also have their 3pt shooting as a further weapon. Of course Gallo isn't as effective on the drive as the other two, but if your problem with Gallo's game is that he can't perform on par with the second and third best SGs of the last decade, then I don't know what to say.

The Rebel wrote:1st let's put his rebounding to rest, Gallinari is not a good rebounder, averaging 4.5 rebounds per game is not good for a 6'10" SF, it is funny people attacked Melo for years, and he averaged 2-3 more rebounds per game for years.

While he has been active on defense, he has not always been effective, active is great for a guy who can carry the load offensively, but if he cannot do that then he better be effective on defense.

And Gallo has never seemed to be a player that let's team success get in his way, but instead his own success is his problem. When things don't go his way he gets down and it affects his game completely, if it had more to do with the team I may actually like him more.

1st let's put rpg to rest, it's an awful stat influenced by both pace and both teams' FG%, and let's look at the more accurate TRB%: Gallo has hovered above 8 every season aside his first (where he was maimed), and has been above 10 since he came to Denver, when he was given the chance to leave the 3pt line where Pringles had glued him to. That's ok for a SF, it's Pierce, Iguodala, Granger, Durant level rebounding, I don't see how can you call that poor. Second, I never once heard Melo getting criticized for his rebounding so I don't know where you pulled this out of. Third, let's be honest: height is irrelevant if you're not in position to rebound. You can't blame Gallo for not being under the rim boxing out when his defensive duties keep him mainly on perimeter players. SFs of similar heights like Granger and Durant do no better and aren't getting criticized, rightly so.

About defense, I don't know what do you expect of him frankly. To me he has looked plenty effective, both in this year in Denver, where he has looked better than Afflalo actually, and in the past on the Knicks, where he often was given the toughest assignment on the perimeter. I don't know if you expect him to shut down completely his opposition, but noone goes off on him, and he's an active help defender, rotating and taking charges, if a bit weak shotblocking-wise.

About the third paragraph, I don't see how he's more affected by bad performance than anyone else. What I see is that when his shot doesn't fall he still puts full effort on his passing, rebounding and defense. He indeed tries to shoot himself out of a slump, instead of radically changing approach, but it's not like he becomes a net minus after a brick eh.

The Rebel wrote:It's still funny to me when people want to argue Chandler versus Gallinari, as if that would be the only difference in the team. Personally I think SF is the most overrated position on the court, and in todays league is one of the easiest to fill. I know many want to change the argument into that, but why don't we base the argument on what I am saying, possibly the highest potential center prospect in the league, and Chandler, or the Nuggets can keep Gallinari and more then likely a TPE and late 1st or early 2nd round pick? Which would you rather have, I think the choice is pretty clear to me, I would take the great prospect that plays the most important role needed for a championship team.

Well, whether you prefer to have Cousins over Gallo has nothing to do with Gallo vs Chandler, so I suppose you don't really think Chandler better than Gallo. I already said that I don't like Cousins at all, so clearly I wouldn't trade him for Gallo. Regarding positional value, I think that's rubbish. Every position has different distribution of their impact between offence and defence, but the overall
impact made is roughly the same among similar caliber players. SFs like Bird, LeBron have more or the same impact on the game as PFs and Cs like Robinson, Ewing, Garnett because the greater offensive impact they offer balances the smaller defensive impact their size allows them. The same, reversed, goes for the smaller positions. This is supported by all the +/- based studies.
There's no objective data supporting your thesis I'm aware of.

The Rebel wrote:Media coverage is always the best way to judge a player? Is that a joke, how about you watch a few games, and get a history of the player and situation before making a snap judgement, Westphal has always been a disaster, and Cousins is a fiery player that hates to lose and feels he is being unfairly singled out despite a horrible coach, a horrible system, and plenty of players on the team not playing up to their talent. Westphal has a long history of being worse with players then Karl ever has been, and has had more then one mutiny, hell the guy could not even get Gary Payton to play up to his potential. Evans has continually complained about Westphal and the system over the last couple of years, but it is easier to blame the guy with reported problems then to go after a guy who was just rookie of the year a couple of years ago. I wish the Nuggets had at least one player that would get pissed off when they lose games they should win, it may actually help.

Media coverage is the only info both you and me have regarding his personality, unless you're a Kings insider or a personal acquaintance of the Cousins family. Since I'm neither, of course I'm basing my judgment on his character on that, what would you have me use, homerish wishful thinking?
Besides, as bad as Westphal may indeed be I always heard only questionable to bad things about Cousins's behaviour, let's not act like he was considered a saint before this last clash with his coach.

This said, his game: I've seen not to many SAC games, I'm ready to admit it. But what I've seen doesn't make him look well at all. He has very good athleticism, but he's not a freak like the LeBrons, Dwights of the world. He shows remarkable technical skill in the post for being a sophomore, and developed ballhandling for a big, and is a gifted technical passer. Yet despite his technical advantages he has been a straight negative impact player on offense, just terrible, with abyssal efficiency both shooting wise and passing wise, due to his awful shot selection and bad decisions. He hasn't been anymore than average if that on defense either, his only saving grace his rebounding (admittedly quite good indeed).

When I think of great potential, I think of players like Dwight, LeBron, Rose, who came into the league as freak athletical prospect with great feeling for the game, whose rawness skill-wise combined with great work ethic foreran great improvement chances based on adding new skills in their game, like shooting, dribbling, passing, post-play...
Cousins looks to me neither raw nor freakishly athletic. He doesn't look like he has outstanding feel for the game, and looks unaware of his actual level of performance, as indicated by his incredibly inefficient results. He's also accused to be a nutjob by everyone he's had to deal with, so really, that guy's potential is mad overrated in my opinion. His absolute ceiling is Zach Randolph, which while not bad, is not perennial all-star level, and I think he's strongly unlikely to progress that much anyway. This said, I am a basketball fan first, and what I'd like the most is to be wrong about him, so that he would become a great center in this starved era. I just don't think this to be likely at all.

legendarywalton wrote:Rebel,

I've admittedly seen very little of Demarcus Cousins, but from everything I hear, the scouts rave about his physical ability. I started watching him this year, and I was impressed with his handle and athleticism for a guy that big, but I'm worried about his shot selection and finishing (oddly enough he's missed a ton of shots at the rim when I watched). I saw some statistic that he has lowest assisted score total of anyone in basketball and that obviously has a lot to do with the horrendously constructed roster in Sacramento, but will his mental makeup allow him to undo all these years of bad tendencies? I don't care if he's a locker room problem, because I think that stuff's overblown, but I do care about his ability to learn, improve, and then demonstrate those skills on the court. Do you think Karl could get through to him and refine his post game? It seems like he's happy to play on the perimeter, crossing guys and dropping long 2s. What has convinced you that he can develop into "possibly the highest potential center prospect in the league". I respect your opinion a lot, so I wanted to get a bit more of a scouting report from you.

Cousins played much more in the paint while at KU, the only explanation I have for his current game is his current coaches, he plays more perimeter because that is what his coaches want. I personally am of the belief that the kid will listen and learn from a decent coach, especially on a team that has a winning attitude.
Here is a video of him talking about the team needing to actually listen to their coach, straight out of his mouth.
http://www.news10.net/video/13590017630 ... ngs-Center
Here also some analysis, on what really happened.
http://aroyalpain.com/2012/01/02/the-cu ... -westphal/
http://www.kentucky.com/2010/12/02/1548 ... -with.html

The Kings are the lowest assisting team in the league right now, their system is horrible, as has Westphal's systems always have been. Cousins does have work to do on his game, however I think that Cousins problems as well as many of the other Kings problems can partially be attributed to that system.

Karl as much as he has always had drama with his most talented young players has always been able to bring the most out of them, and help them improve their games. Especially the ones with the desire to be the best in the game. While I don't always agree with his tactics, the improvements to the games of Melo, Jr, Nene, Payton, Kemp, Ray Allen, and all the numerous other players he has had problems with while coaching are self evident. I am sure there will be some drama, and some crap, but I also think Karl is exactly the type of coach that Cousins needs to be the star he should be.

As for Cousins being the top young prospect, i honestly think he can easily be a top 3 center in the league for the next decade, he has all the physical tools, and if he can break the bad habits he has picked up and start taking the correct steps he will be there within the next couple of years. The fact that many of his supposed issues come from not being able to deal with losing only makes me believe that much more that he will reach that point with a decent coach.

Aeternus wrote:

The Rebel wrote:Are you really comparing Gallinari to Wade and ginobli? Also let's get something clear, Ginobli for all the crap he gets for being a flopper, actually has averaged only 6 free throws a game 1 time in his career, Gallo has for the last 2. And the big difference is when the calls do not go Wade or Ginobli's way they find other ways to score, that is one of the things that make them great, Gallo struggles if he does not get the refs to call his awful flops.
You see a good scorer finds ways to score regardless of the refs, so while more contact may or may not be allowed, a supposedly great player like Gallo should be able to overcome bad refs, if everything has to be perfect for him to be a good scorer then he is not a great player.

Ginobili also never went over 31 mpg in his career. His PER36 number have him between 6.0 and 7.5 FTA per game throughout his career, despite spending half of his athletical peak (age 21-25) in Europe. Also Ginobili is widely considered Gallo's closest style comparison.
Besides, what are this marvelous other ways the two I've mentioned have to score when they don't get the calls? They both just continue to drive looking to finish and draw, same as Gallo, only of course better. Gallo and Ginobili also have their 3pt shooting as a further weapon. Of course Gallo isn't as effective on the drive as the other two, but if your problem with Gallo's game is that he can't perform on par with the second and third best SGs of the last decade, then I don't know what to say.

The Rebel wrote:1st let's put his rebounding to rest, Gallinari is not a good rebounder, averaging 4.5 rebounds per game is not good for a 6'10" SF, it is funny people attacked Melo for years, and he averaged 2-3 more rebounds per game for years.

While he has been active on defense, he has not always been effective, active is great for a guy who can carry the load offensively, but if he cannot do that then he better be effective on defense.

And Gallo has never seemed to be a player that let's team success get in his way, but instead his own success is his problem. When things don't go his way he gets down and it affects his game completely, if it had more to do with the team I may actually like him more.

1st let's put rpg to rest, it's an awful stat influenced by both pace and both teams' FG%, and let's look at the more accurate TRB%: Gallo has hovered above 8 every season aside his first (where he was maimed), and has been above 10 since he came to Denver, when he was given the chance to leave the 3pt line where Pringles had glued him to. That's ok for a SF, it's Pierce, Iguodala, Granger, Durant level rebounding, I don't see how can you call that poor. Second, I never once heard Melo getting criticized for his rebounding so I don't know where you pulled this out of. Third, let's be honest: height is irrelevant if you're not in position to rebound. You can't blame Gallo for not being under the rim boxing out when his defensive duties keep him mainly on perimeter players. SFs of similar heights like Granger and Durant do no better and aren't getting criticized, rightly so.

About defense, I don't know what do you expect of him frankly. To me he has looked plenty effective, both in this year in Denver, where he has looked better than Afflalo actually, and in the past on the Knicks, where he often was given the toughest assignment on the perimeter. I don't know if you expect him to shut down completely his opposition, but noone goes off on him, and he's an active help defender, rotating and taking charges, if a bit weak shotblocking-wise.

About the third paragraph, I don't see how he's more affected by bad performance than anyone else. What I see is that when his shot doesn't fall he still puts full effort on his passing, rebounding and defense. He indeed tries to shoot himself out of a slump, instead of radically changing approach, but it's not like he becomes a net minus after a brick eh.

The Rebel wrote:It's still funny to me when people want to argue Chandler versus Gallinari, as if that would be the only difference in the team. Personally I think SF is the most overrated position on the court, and in todays league is one of the easiest to fill. I know many want to change the argument into that, but why don't we base the argument on what I am saying, possibly the highest potential center prospect in the league, and Chandler, or the Nuggets can keep Gallinari and more then likely a TPE and late 1st or early 2nd round pick? Which would you rather have, I think the choice is pretty clear to me, I would take the great prospect that plays the most important role needed for a championship team.

Well, whether you prefer to have Cousins over Gallo has nothing to do with Gallo vs Chandler, so I suppose you don't really think Chandler better than Gallo. I already said that I don't like Cousins at all, so clearly I wouldn't trade him for Gallo. Regarding positional value, I think that's rubbish. Every position has different distribution of their impact between offence and defence, but the overall
impact made is roughly the same among similar caliber players. SFs like Bird, LeBron have more or the same impact on the game as PFs and Cs like Robinson, Ewing, Garnett because the greater offensive impact they offer balances the smaller defensive impact their size allows them. The same, reversed, goes for the smaller positions. This is supported by all the +/- based studies.
There's no objective data supporting your thesis I'm aware of.

The Rebel wrote:Media coverage is always the best way to judge a player? Is that a joke, how about you watch a few games, and get a history of the player and situation before making a snap judgement, Westphal has always been a disaster, and Cousins is a fiery player that hates to lose and feels he is being unfairly singled out despite a horrible coach, a horrible system, and plenty of players on the team not playing up to their talent. Westphal has a long history of being worse with players then Karl ever has been, and has had more then one mutiny, hell the guy could not even get Gary Payton to play up to his potential. Evans has continually complained about Westphal and the system over the last couple of years, but it is easier to blame the guy with reported problems then to go after a guy who was just rookie of the year a couple of years ago. I wish the Nuggets had at least one player that would get pissed off when they lose games they should win, it may actually help.

Media coverage is the only info both you and me have regarding his personality, unless you're a Kings insider or a personal acquaintance of the Cousins family. Since I'm neither, of course I'm basing my judgment on his character on that, what would you have me use, homerish wishful thinking?
Besides, as bad as Westphal may indeed be I always heard only questionable to bad things about Cousins's behaviour, let's not act like he was considered a saint before this last clash with his coach.

This said, his game: I've seen not to many SAC games, I'm ready to admit it. But what I've seen doesn't make him look well at all. He has very good athleticism, but he's not a freak like the LeBrons, Dwights of the world. He shows remarkable technical skill in the post for being a sophomore, and developed ballhandling for a big, and is a gifted technical passer. Yet despite his technical advantages he has been a straight negative impact player on offense, just terrible, with abyssal efficiency both shooting wise and passing wise, due to his awful shot selection and bad decisions. He hasn't been anymore than average if that on defense either, his only saving grace his rebounding (admittedly quite good indeed).

When I think of great potential, I think of players like Dwight, LeBron, Rose, who came into the league as freak athletical prospect with great feeling for the game, whose rawness skill-wise combined with great work ethic foreran great improvement chances based on adding new skills in their game, like shooting, dribbling, passing, post-play...
Cousins looks to me neither raw nor freakishly athletic. He doesn't look like he has outstanding feel for the game, and looks unaware of his actual level of performance, as indicated by his incredibly inefficient results. He's also accused to be a nutjob by everyone he's had to deal with, so really, that guy's potential is mad overrated in my opinion. His absolute ceiling is Zach Randolph, which while not bad, is not perennial all-star level, and I think he's strongly unlikely to progress that much anyway. This said, I am a basketball fan first, and what I'd like the most is to be wrong about him, so that he would become a great center in this starved era. I just don't think this to be likely at all.

Do you honestly expect people to read all this?

mutumba wrote: Do you honestly expect people to read all this?

Well, it's not much longer than Rebel's post and my own previous one, so I don't see why not.
It looks however much longer than it is because of Rebel's quotes and the space between paragraphs.
My own written lines are no more than 60-something.

Certainly tho, if my post length scares you, I'd advise to stay well clear of the player comparison board, there you would find even longer posts (although most likely better written).