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How much patience do the Nuggets deserve

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How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#1 » by The Rebel » Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:51 am

While I usually do not agree with Dempsey, he wrote one hell of an article about all 4 of the major sports teams in Denver, specifically bringing up what I have have felt over the last few weeks with the Nuggets, and i have noticed others seem to think as well. 9 straight trips to the playoffs are great, but when does 1 and done become unacceptable?

The teams want you, the fan, to be rational, to stay level-headed, to turn the other cheek while 'the process,' 'the plan,' or whatever they want to call it is being executed.

And yes, it's perfectly reasonable.

The Nuggets have put together a good young core of players, a core that pushed the Lakers to the fourth quarter of Game 7 in the first round of the NBA playoffs before losing. A month before that series started there was a question as to whether the Nuggets would even make the playoffs.


Or maybe it's the sobering realization that there are other organizations not asking their fans to be patient. Instead they push their chips to the middle of the table, going all-in on a run at a title. They roll the dice and shake things up, hoping to take major steps toward elite status rather than baby steps
http://www.denverpost.com/lunchspecial/ci_21013042/colorado-sports-fans-asked-lot-patience-can-you#ixzz1zufaUJdS

so how much patience do the Nuggets deserve? And is it to the point where people are starting to lose interest, as there is much less posting on this and other boards I frequent, and I hear much less about them around town.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#2 » by almost famous » Sat Jul 7, 2012 12:42 pm

Good article. I must admit, I've grown tired of supporting a team who doesn't seem to care to be anything more than "pretty good". I've given this team a lot of my energy during the last 10 years. I don't have much left for 3 years of developing slightly above average talent.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#3 » by pickIBL » Sat Jul 7, 2012 1:23 pm

The short answer is they don't deserve any patience. BUT until fans vote with their pocketbook it doesn't matter. I suppose Kroenke figures small markets are lucky to have a team at all... but they have been playing this game of just doing enough to keep the team comeptitive and the revenues flowing.

Hell I'm still pissed over how Mutombo got hanlded and Bickerstaff ruined the team. Other small market teams have given it the college try.... the Lakers got for real again with the Nash pick up.

The Nuggets need a new coach and a get deeper in the playoffs mindset.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#4 » by patrol345 » Sat Jul 7, 2012 4:22 pm

Everybody is so impatient. I been watching for 10 years and nothing? How many of the players on our current team have been on this team more than 3 years? Is it their fault the other teams before them sucked? Give them next season and see where we are at. Then make moves if needed.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#5 » by RRFB » Sat Jul 7, 2012 9:00 pm

What exactly do you want them to do? Spend a bunch of money or make a big trade just for the sake of making a move. Didn't we do that with Kmart and AI, how well did that work out? We'll never be able to compete with LA, Boston, Miami, Dallas, New York, Chicago, etc. in trades and free agency, and we'll never be able to build a team the same way they do, especially with the way stars run the league now. Our FO is attempting to build a team using a formula that's really never been done before, and it makes sense for a small market team in today's league. We just took the Lakers to 7 games as one of the youngest, most inexperienced teams in the NBA. This team has far more upside and flexibility moving forward than any other Nuggets team in the past 15+ years. I think they deserve a little bit of patience and time to develop.

I do agree that the whole point of stockpiling assets like we have been, is so that you can turn around and trade a few of them for a big time player. We definitely need to make a move like that eventually, but I have complete faith in Ujiri. I think we have one of the best front offices in the league, and I'd be shocked if they aren't constantly exploring multiple trade and free agency options.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#6 » by pickIBL » Sat Jul 7, 2012 10:24 pm

You ask a very fair question... What do you want them to do?

Evan Fournier was taken over Fab Melo, Jared Sullinger, Perry Jones, and Marcus Teague. The Nuggets needed a PG and still need a C. I don't care what the excuse is (Karl won't play them, whatever)... there is no excuse for not making a bigger splash. And I don't hate Fournier... we just have needs elsewhere.

The AI move was just stupid BUT it was injuries that made the KMART deal look bad. If we would have gotten a healthy NJ KMart for several years that would have been great. And in saying that the front office just hasn't put out a balanced team. Outside shooting was a huge issue then... Voshon Lenard was a cheap answer and Dre wasn't and isn't a perimeter shooter (neither was AI for that matter). The goal for the visitors was always just to get back on D and let anyone shoot an outside shot... brick.

But to answer your question I want to see the Nuggets put a balanced team on the floor. I'd like to see a roster full of high basketball IQs that can play run and gun and half court basketball. That starts with having a coaching staff that can coach half court basketball.

There are a bunch of youtube clips that feature just how dumb a basketball player JaVale McGee is. And the kind of money they will end up giving him is crazy.

Spencer Hawes for example just got signed for two years at just $13 million total.

I just want the Nuggets to make competitive decisions with a competitive budget.

And the more I think about it the more I think they are doing deals because they have to work around what George Karl is both capable and incapable of. We end up with a Euro to leave overseas at a position we don't need because of Karl. We possibly end up overspending for a long athletic knucklehead because that's what fits the coach. If we had Jerry Sloan/Phil Jackson... hell even Tim Floyd I am sure he would much rather have a Spencer Hawes type... and Hawes is much cheaper than McGee.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#7 » by scottcarman » Sun Jul 8, 2012 1:22 am

I have been a Nuggets fan since 90 when I moved here. I remember the dark days. When I would try to convince myself that the Nuggets could make the playoffs 'next year'. Any time a team is primed for the playoffs then they could go for a run and magical things happen.

I think the management has changed a lot over the years. I remember feeling let down when the Nuggets let go of Camby for purely cap reasons. I think the next year we took the lakers deep into the western conference finals. Would Camby have made a difference? Some say yes, others say the nuggets were better by subtraction. It seemed silly to me to trade one of the better defenders in the league.

However, since Josh and Ujiri have taken over, this looks completely different. They aren't stupid and can't make a trade happen, but they have consistently made the team better at every turn. We now have most of our team under 26 years old (of the top of my head Lawson, AAA, JHam, Chandler, Gallo, Faried, McGee,Koufos, Mozgov). Most great players in the league will peak around 27-32. We have increased our odds, instead of counting on one player to make the next step, we now have several who are capable. Gallo, Lawson, Faried, McGee all have the potential to be top 5 at their position. Our big men are being sent to camp (including McGee who isn't under contract yet). Hamilton and Brewer have been working with Grg. The attitude seems more professional and hopefully we can keep it that way. I think Andre, and Harrington will be equally vital in the locker room as they are on the court.

We have primed ourselves to make our run in 2-3 years, and if we strike lightning possibly sooner. Maybe Nowitzki wants to leave Dallas?

It wasn't realistic for us to get any of the big names and Ujiri has kept the pump primed, we are ready to make the playoffs, but we are ready to nab a star player if that opportunity comes around realistically.

I would also like to see the Nuggets go after Ibaka, his age range fits and I dont think OKC can afford him.

I think we are counting on this team to accept their roles and who knows, it might be possible. This was a team that was on pace to win around 48 games, and they now have the full off season without distraction. They are a young team and I think we should expect that they will be better next year. So certainly in the mix. I certainly can see this team being in the mix soon.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#8 » by scottcarman » Sun Jul 8, 2012 1:46 am

One other thing, if people want to go for a championship then where are the calls to trade a portion of our team for Dwight even without a guarantee. One year rental. I think we could put together an attractive package and still leave solid talent around Dwight. I think the Nuggets would have a 10% chance of keeping him. If at all falls apart then the nuggets start without much talent, but not any bad contracts either.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#9 » by OmniDEN » Sun Jul 8, 2012 1:47 pm

They deserve patience. We are lucky to have ownership that WANTS the team to improve. I think all the moves they've made, especially during the Melo years (like trading for Iverson) proves that they don't mind taking risks and spending money. The new guys also seem to be very smart about trades and not doing something just for the sake of doing it.

I think we've got one of the better ownership/management groups in the league, especially considering we're mid-market at best.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#10 » by sportsmikegm23 » Sun Jul 8, 2012 9:16 pm

Patience??? I don't have a lot when it comes to sports and my favorite teams. I want to always win a championship. When you look at the Nuggets, you have to look at the current environment in which they operate. You can keep a drafted star- (i.e LeBron) on your team close to seven years... then they can go wherever. We were lucky that Masai got a good amount in return for Carmelo where as Cleveland didn't get anything for LeBron. Josh and Masai show a level head, but are they being aggressive to pull off a huge trade? They have good assets, but do they have great assets??? I am willing to give the Nuggets this year to figure what direction they need to go in... can they give JaVale more basketball IQ (if he signs with the Nuggets), can Ty, Gallo, Faried, AA or another turn into an All-star caliber player??? Can each player improved their flaws and make their strengths even stronger? You need to have 2 or 3 all star caliber players to even talk contender for a championship and the Nuggets are not there yet, but with growth maybe or with assets could come a trade??? Patience, I don't go to games as much any more, I just can't-- but I will always be a Nuggets fan. They are engrained in my soul. It brings me back to being a kid and wanting to be David Thompson or Dan Issel or Alex English. Watching or going to a game with my step son is so much fun and watching his enjoyment, win or lose. I just hope one day they will find the pieces for a championship.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#11 » by The Rebel » Mon Jul 9, 2012 2:25 pm

I believe it is Hastings who used to like to quote someone that it is easy to build a 45 win team, but damn hard to build a 55 win team. To me this is a 45 win team, with dreams of being a 55 win team, but to do it they have to resign McGee, and hope for McGee, Lawson, Faried, and Gallo all to take big jumps, with at least 2 of them becoming all star caliber players, while possible, it is unusual for players to make big jumps after their 3rd year, and I do not believe is a way to build a true contender.

RRFB, you make the statement that this is the 1st time a team has tried to do something like the nuggets are attempting, and I say quit buying the hype and think about this for a minute. a team built around role players hoping they all become better, is a codeword for being a treadmill team until we somehow find the right recipe or get lucky in the lottery. The Bulls were doing it until they got lucky and won the 1st overall pick with Rose, the Pacers are doing it now, the 76ers are doing it, the rockets have been doing it since they figured out that Yao was not coming back, the Pistons were the only team that I remember being successful at it. The point is that teams always do this type of build, the difference is the Nuggets are the only ones with the balls to come out and admit it to their fans, because Denver fans seem to be laid back enough to accept it.

speaking of the Rockets, has anybody paid attention to their plight? they have spent several years building up assets so that they can make a move to get a superstar while staying competitve, whether that superstar comes through free agency or trades, they have the cap room and talented young players, and several key role players, but still they are ignored by those top tier players. Considering Denver is a smaller market, less marketable to the african american young superstars, and only slightly better, what makes anybody believe Denver is going to be a more attractive market for those players?

To add insult to injury you have Kroenke making statements like this,
https://twitter.com/denvernuggets
#Nuggets‬ president Josh Kroenke: "Our existing roster deserved a chance to move forward and compete together."


this team has been together for a year and a half, they are not magically going to get better, as shown the last time the Nuggets pulled this **** in 2005 when the team stayed exactly the same, and had the exact same results. You do not build a team by hoping that they will magically get better, you go out and make the team get better.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#12 » by The Rebel » Mon Jul 9, 2012 2:40 pm

OmniDEN wrote:They deserve patience. We are lucky to have ownership that WANTS the team to improve. I think all the moves they've made, especially during the Melo years (like trading for Iverson) proves that they don't mind taking risks and spending money. The new guys also seem to be very smart about trades and not doing something just for the sake of doing it.

I think we've got one of the better ownership/management groups in the league, especially considering we're mid-market at best.

Have you ever noticed that when the Nuggets payroll goes up, the avalanches payroll goes down, and vice versa? I have seen several quotes that Kroenke believes in running his sports franchises like a business, and not a hobby that is meant to lose money. I will give you that the Nuggets took risks on acquiring Kmart and AI both, but what many ignore is that at the same time they were trading draft picks to dump bad contracts or to just save money, while slashing the Avalanche's payroll. Hell a few years ago they sold an early 2nd rounder and bragged about how much they got for it, despite several good young players being available.

As for a mid-market at best team, that is exactly what the Nuggets are, they are right in the middle of the pack for market size in the NBA, yet they do not seem to run like that.

My point is not that you do a trade just to do a trade, my point is that I have never agreed with the way they decided to rebuild, but if you are going to rebuild like this then you do not get content just because a team does slightly better then you expected the 2nd year into it. You continue to find ways to improve it, and what that means to me is making 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 deals, or trading redundant players for picks or even future picks, not taking a 1st round pick because he will stay in Europe for another year or 2, use the TPE you created to get more picks or assets through being a 3rd team on a big deal. but staying the exact same while bringing back the same roster without even improving it through a single move is not a recipe for becoming anything more then 1st round fodder, but maybe the Kroenkes don't mind that as they will make money with a payroll right about the cap and a 1st round exit.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#13 » by sportsmikegm23 » Mon Jul 9, 2012 3:12 pm

Rebel,

I think most fans would agree that it would be more than nice to see Josh and Masai put together a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 deal and trying to get better and win. I know many are frustrated with the pick of Fournier and I am one that is not thrilled, but many people look at the San Antonio model with Ginobili and Parker... but there is one huge difference-- they had a Tim Duncan to help mold them- along with Pop.

Patience, I dislike, I would be one that would prefer to see if I could find a package for Howard for one year and see if I could sign and trade him the next, but go for a championship this year. It's not the way I would want to build, but it could be your shot at a star in this market. -- The NBA is run by the agents and they dictate on building their individual brand. Other than completely stinking and getting very very lucky and get the #1 pick in the draft (no guarantee it will be a LeBron or Carmelo type).

That being said Josh and Masai believe that Fournier can be a piece at some point (whether trade or play in the future). While we all know the history of most drafted Euro's around here- Skitta, we miss you... NOT!!! - they were drafted by different people and in a different situation. I am skeptical as you are, I am not a huge fan, but maybe they can use him in a trade or he does get better. I think everyone has to like the Q Miller pick- The Turkish guy??????. I think they should have packaged picks and players for a potential star in the draft or currently in the league. But I know they are in a tough position-- if they were LA or even Phoenix they could get a few extra looks, but Denver is not a top destination. It's going to take Ty and others getting really good and having a few guys really want to play with them to really create change - because even with trades it could be risking assets and I don't think Josh or Masai want to do this-- even if they don't get the value we believe they should.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#14 » by patrol345 » Mon Jul 9, 2012 3:19 pm

So we have one of the youngest teams in the league make it as the 6th seed last year and people wanna blow it up this year and think they have peaked? Give me a break.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#15 » by The Rebel » Mon Jul 9, 2012 10:55 pm

patrol345 wrote:So we have one of the youngest teams in the league make it as the 6th seed last year and people wanna blow it up this year and think they have peaked? Give me a break.


where has anybody say to blow it up? I have read several say that the Nuggets should be looking for deals to improve, but trading 2 players or 3 players for a really good player or 2 is not blowing it up, especially since so many players are on basically the same level.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#16 » by The Rebel » Mon Jul 9, 2012 10:57 pm

sportsmikegm23 wrote:Rebel,

I think most fans would agree that it would be more than nice to see Josh and Masai put together a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 deal and trying to get better and win. I know many are frustrated with the pick of Fournier and I am one that is not thrilled, but many people look at the San Antonio model with Ginobili and Parker... but there is one huge difference-- they had a Tim Duncan to help mold them- along with Pop.

Patience, I dislike, I would be one that would prefer to see if I could find a package for Howard for one year and see if I could sign and trade him the next, but go for a championship this year. It's not the way I would want to build, but it could be your shot at a star in this market. -- The NBA is run by the agents and they dictate on building their individual brand. Other than completely stinking and getting very very lucky and get the #1 pick in the draft (no guarantee it will be a LeBron or Carmelo type).

That being said Josh and Masai believe that Fournier can be a piece at some point (whether trade or play in the future). While we all know the history of most drafted Euro's around here- Skitta, we miss you... NOT!!! - they were drafted by different people and in a different situation. I am skeptical as you are, I am not a huge fan, but maybe they can use him in a trade or he does get better. I think everyone has to like the Q Miller pick- The Turkish guy??????. I think they should have packaged picks and players for a potential star in the draft or currently in the league. But I know they are in a tough position-- if they were LA or even Phoenix they could get a few extra looks, but Denver is not a top destination. It's going to take Ty and others getting really good and having a few guys really want to play with them to really create change - because even with trades it could be risking assets and I don't think Josh or Masai want to do this-- even if they don't get the value we believe they should.


My problem is not with fournier per se, i have never watched him play a game, and just know what I get from video, for all I know he could be an all star for 10 straight years once he gets into the NBA. My problem is the fact that the Nuggets took him with the idea that he would stay in Europe for a year or 2. Like they don't think a 1 and done team needs any upgrades.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#17 » by patrol345 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:09 am

The Rebel wrote:
patrol345 wrote:So we have one of the youngest teams in the league make it as the 6th seed last year and people wanna blow it up this year and think they have peaked? Give me a break.


where has anybody say to blow it up? I have read several say that the Nuggets should be looking for deals to improve, but trading 2 players or 3 players for a really good player or 2 is not blowing it up, especially since so many players are on basically the same level.


So what players would we be able to swap a 2 for 1 for? Mozgov and brewer what would that realistically get? A bad contract back? Maybe koufus and mozgov and a pick or chandler and a 1st what would that get iggy or gay to cut into gallos minutes? In reality I've seen this idea over and over again but unless u wanna caugh up ty,gallo,faried (which I consider blowing it up) your not gonna get anything better than we already have. I agree fournier was a reach and it did seem to be made to appease karl which sucks, but let's not act like our three main players are gonna bring back a superstar under 30 signed on a 4 year deal that would do anything more than make us the same 50 win team which we are already. I say give them a real season together and see how good they can be, if they don't make it past the first round make some moves next year.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#18 » by The Rebel » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:41 am

patrol345 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
patrol345 wrote:So we have one of the youngest teams in the league make it as the 6th seed last year and people wanna blow it up this year and think they have peaked? Give me a break.


where has anybody say to blow it up? I have read several say that the Nuggets should be looking for deals to improve, but trading 2 players or 3 players for a really good player or 2 is not blowing it up, especially since so many players are on basically the same level.


So what players would we be able to swap a 2 for 1 for? Mozgov and brewer what would that realistically get? A bad contract back? Maybe koufus and mozgov and a pick or chandler and a 1st what would that get iggy or gay to cut into gallos minutes? In reality I've seen this idea over and over again but unless u wanna caugh up ty,gallo,faried (which I consider blowing it up) your not gonna get anything better than we already have. I agree fournier was a reach and it did seem to be made to appease karl which sucks, but let's not act like our three main players are gonna bring back a superstar under 30 signed on a 4 year deal that would do anything more than make us the same 50 win team which we are already. I say give them a real season together and see how good they can be, if they don't make it past the first round make some moves next year.


If your definition is trading just one of Gallo, Faried, or Ty, then sure we should blow it up, of course my definition of blowing a team up would be trading anybody with value for picks/ future picks. I don't know how long you have actually been following the Nuggets, but they blew the team up about 10 years ago, and finally got the team to come out of the borderline playoff team/rebuild cycle, which until 3 weeks left of last season, was exactly how this team looked. Personally I have been clear, when they traded melo they should have blown it up, but they didn't, but if their idea is to build a team this way, then build the team, don't get complacent just because you made the playoffs.

If you turn down a trade because it may cut into another players playing time, then to me that means that player is not good enough to justify not making the trade. If the team feels that Gay is better then Gallo, then why wouldn't they trade for him and let him take Gallo's minutes? The goal is to win championships, not just barely make the playoffs and get booted in the 1st round.

Not to mention if we are honest Gallo, TY, and Faried have done nothing to justify not trading them for a significant upgrade. hell Gallo is too injury prone and inconsistent to depend on as a guy I want to build around, Lawson falls back into his laid back game and plays average at best about half the time, and faried is a nice hustle player without a post game, no jump shot, and a below average defender. Now all 3 of them may grow into more then they are now, but none of them are good enough to justify not looking for an upgrade.

AS for giving a team a real season, I am so tired of excuses, and that is exactly what that is, the Nuggets have been using excuses for 32+ years that I remember. This team was not good enough to do more then they did last year, and I have yet to see a reason to believe they will be all that much better with a training camp and a longer season for Gallo and Chandler to nurse injuries, McGee to lose his focus, Lawson to stop being aggressive, the bigs to lose their confidence, and teams to figure out how to put a body on Faried. but hey I am sure there will be more excuses next year, there always is.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#19 » by patrol345 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:12 am

So you feel one of the youngest teams in the league is not gonna get better? And mind you they pushed the lakers to 7 games in the playoffs this year so if you do think they are going to get better that should mean making it to the second round of the playoffs or maybe further next year. No one is giving them a chance because of the nuggets lack of success for the past ten years but I'm arguing that lack of success has nothing to do with our current group of young players. All I hear on here is trade trade trade.I think they will surprise everyone next year and be a 2 thru 4 seed and at the least make it too the second round of the playoffs.
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Re: How much patience do the Nuggets deserve 

Post#20 » by Powder Blue » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:01 am

patrol345 wrote:So you feel one of the youngest teams in the league is not gonna get better? And mind you they pushed the lakers to 7 games in the playoffs this year so if you do think they are going to get better that should mean making it to the second round of the playoffs or maybe further next year. No one is giving them a chance because of the nuggets lack of success for the past ten years but I'm arguing that lack of success has nothing to do with our current group of young players. All I hear on here is trade trade trade.I think they will surprise everyone next year and be a 2 thru 4 seed and at the least make it too the second round of the playoffs.


I think what Rebel is getting to is that the Nuggets need to make a push to have a couple "great" players instead of having 10 good players. Pushing the Lakers to 7 was fine and dandy but it's still a first round exit. Denver isn't going to attract multiple all-stars but they have to at least have one on the roster to make serious run. The two players I see being close are Ty/Gallo...If they don't make that push then you gotta shake it up...at least get rid of Karl.

As far as running out of patience, I suppose one who's tired of the first round exits could stop watching the team but that isn't going to change the way the team does business. Kroenke's aren't going to change the way they run the team.

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