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The team this year was awesome. It proved what it set out to prove: you don't need a superstar, and with
focus on 2-pt baskets and home domination, you can win 57.

Then the first round came. Idc what the explanation was why we lost the playoffs......I want to know why we lost
our identity. We need to know how to prevent the loss of identity going into the playoffs next year.

If you want to win like the Warriors, fine. If you want to win like the Celtics have, fine. But we need
the identity, whatever it is, to be identical to what brought success in the first place.

We need a strategy for kicking the offense back in gear whenever the other team slows it down or shoots the lights out.

It's no longer good enough to just say, give the opponent a golf clap and then not have effective responses.

Choose an identity, keep and identity, dial up more of that identity....but don't change gears at the final
moment and then wonder why the team could never keep it going.

the reason the Nuggets struggled so much to keep their identity was the fact that they did not have shooters on the court. One of the best ways to slow down shooters is too force them to play some defense, fact is the Warriors just packed the paint resting their shooters and forcing the Nuggets to try to do something about it. With the horrible outside shooting and 5 Warrior's players within a few feet of the basket it was impossible to really drive the lane much, and the offensive rebounds were rare. Regardless of what else happens the Nuggets desperately need to get a couple of shooters that Karl will play throughout the season relying on one guy to be the only one spreading the floor is a huge mistake.


Also our defense collapsed, I place much of the blame for that on Karl, not only did he basically pull the bigs for 3 games after winning game 1, but he overplayed Brewer and Miller, both of whom are not good man to man defenders, instead both thrive playing the passing lanes, but someone has to force the opponents to pass the ball. Nuggets could not do it.

Personally at this point I do not know how the team can totally change their identity without blowing up the team. McGee, Faried, lawson, Fournier, and Gallo are all better off playing in an uptempo offense where their speed and quickness can help their game, especially with the ability of Fournier and Gallo to create for others. Trying to go with an all half court style, I do not see Faried and McGee with the strength to constantly try to out muscle other bigs, which becomes a huge problem for teams with decent bigs.

Here is actually a very insightful article that I found today, it goes into exactly what I was talking about yesterday with the lack of shooters being the reason the Nuggets have struggled in the playoffs.

Milwaukee's best defensive wings, Marquis Daniels and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute, can't shoot at all, and wing players who can't shoot are increasingly becoming a giant liability against smart NBA defenses. That's especially true in the playoffs, where teams can devote all their scouting resources to a single opponent and pick at weaknesses until that opponent breaks.

The league's decision a decade ago to do away with illegal defense and replace it with a defensive three-second rule has enabled these sorts of zone-style hybrid defenses; Tom Thibodeau's teams in Boston and then Chicago were the first to successfully exploit the rule changes, but almost every team has adopted at least some of that philosophy.

And so Mbah a Moute and Daniels were borderline unplayable, except Milwaukee, at least in its collective mind, had no choice but to play them. The same thing has happened in the Brooklyn-Chicago series, where Thibodeau's Bulls have left Gerald Wallace alone on the perimeter to clog the lane on Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Brook Lopez. The same strategy, and the same heightened playoff focus, explains why Lionel Hollins cuts Tony Allen's minutes every postseason like clockwork.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/922 ... m-suggests

guys like Miller, Brewer, Iggy, and even Stone are liabilities on the offensive end especially in the playoffs, where defenses just pack the paint and dare a team to beat them from outside. Which is the exact reason the Nuggets lost their identity in the playoffs all these years. They have to get and play some shooters, as ignoring that part of the game is what has cost the Nuggets for years.

Absolutely...I love how well thought out that response is Rebel. It's insane how much GS could afford the time to get all 5 players packed and in place though. Part of the identity of the success of this Dig In era team is catching defenses before they even have a chance to set up, which in turn means chasing shooters off of their perches through whatever effective means and starting each Nugget offensive possession with a defensive rebound and run out.

So, I would maybe pose the question just one more time and target specifically how a team that claims this as its identity (to the tune of 57 wins) retains that identity for the duration of the 1st round, 2nd round etc.

I'm totally thinking if the defensive side of the floor doesn't force a turnover, grab a rebound, and get off to the races immediately then the chance for success dramatically falls and lands in the territory of needing that 1-2 shooters to spread the floor.

With Gallo injured and no one else being a serviceable shooter....suddenly we miss that element even though it was largely ignored to reach 57 wins. You could name 4-5 players that have been on the roster from 2010 to 2012 who could have filled a crucial role in just this first round, and why they're not on the roster.


That being said I love having 4 seven footers on the team and the point of this was to battle the size and height of a team like the Lakers.....but even Mozzy ended up benched so it wasn't technically a compliment of four bigs.

On the same token I really don't want us going small just to get shooters and ending up outplayed by the bigs of whatever team we meet next season. We need a shooting big as a sort of compliment to Gallo to sub for him, and then maybe 1-2 lights out shooters, but not rely on that shooting alone.

It seems like no matter what the composition of the team and the regular season success, that whatever our weakness is at the time is easily exploited.

How do you protect against easy exploitation?

the Nuggets won 57 games playing the way you say, but I disagree with the premise that outside shooting was ignored. Gallo shot 5.1 3s a game that is a pretty big loss considering he shot 1.4 more 3s a game, and hit at a solid clip. Also most of those wins came in the 2nd half, they were either behind or in very close games most of the time coming out of half time. Why is that?

Personally I think that is because the Nuggets made the other teams work so hard both on defense and on offense, having Gallo to spread the floor helped. People point to the schedule as the reason for the record being so bad the 1st 2 months of the season, but I think that only really played a part of it, another large part of the problem was the fact that not a single starter was shooting worth a crap from outside. Mid December both Gallo and Lawson started hitting outside shots, and not long after the Nuggets started winning games going away in the 3rd quarter. When Chandler finally came back healthy the Nuggets defense did improve, but they also added a guy that shot 41% from 3. When Gallo went down, Fournier started playing and hitting 41% from 3, despite Fournier not being as good defensively the Nuggets still won 5 out of 6 games without Gallo with most of those leads coming in the 3rd or 4th quarters.

Fact is NBA shooters are good, they practice shots with hands in their face every day, they play thousands of games before they ever make the NBA playoffs. curry and Thompson are 2 of the best in the league, a hand in the face is not going to make enough of a difference. The Nuggets needed to tire them out and be physical with them, just the physicality with Iggy against Thompson and the whole team in game 5 slowed Curry them both down considerably.

When you are tired you make mistakes, shots don't drop as easily, bad passes happen more frequently, but in a league where most players are in good shape, you have to make them work harder then they are used to in order to get them to make those mistakes. The Warriors throughout the Series did not even bother going for the offensive rebound, they sprinted back to the paint and basically relaxed, leaving the Nuggets shooters wide open at the 3 point line, only committing to run outs when the shots were going up.

Personally I agree that you do not need shooters alone, but you need guys who can play defense and hit shots. I personally think Fournier is the perfect fit long term at SG with Lawson and Gallo, he has a good enough game on both ends to make the opposition work hard on both ends. I would also like to see a real shooter off the bench, not some guy like Brewer who is a hustle player who is not a good outside shooter. I personally would like to see a 40% 3 point shooter to come off the bench behind Fournier and Iggy until gallo gets back. the problem is you do not need 4 guys who can hit 3 point shots on the floor all the time, but you need at least 2, Lawson is one as a starter, off the bench you have Chandler (who is streaky but should work) but no one else.

Guys I am thinking are like Marcus Thornton, Courtney Lee (1st choice actually), even Arron Afflalo, who along with Fournier getting minutes at the 2 should make a difference. I would also like to see Miller moved for a younger PG that likes to play at a faster pace and can hit outside shots. 2 good shooters in the starting lineup and 3 off the bench would be more then enough to force the defense to actually have to work in the playoffs.

Rebel-
Let me get this straight. Would you rather have Lee than Iguodala?

torotoe wrote:Rebel-
Let me get this straight. Would you rather have Lee than Iguodala?

Next year no, as I said the Nuggets need at least 2 guys who are decent 3 point shooters in the starting lineup, my idea would be to bring back Iggy to start at the 3 while Gallo is out, starting fournier at the 2, and having Lee or someone similar as the 6th man with Hamilton fighting for good minutes. Once Gallo is back and recovered back into the starting lineup then Iggy can go back to the 2, with Gallo at the 3, and Fournier and the D3 guy fighting for minutes off the bench.

That being said it would not break my heart if the Nuggets lost Iggy, personally in 2 years I would rather see a long term starting PG/SG/SF lineup of Lawson/ fournier/ Gallo, with a couple of guys like Hamilton and a D3 guy off the bench. I think they would all work together well and would be pretty solid defensively. I just do not see Iggy holding up or ever being the leader of the team, and just like with the Warriors the more shooters you can keep on the floor the better, if they are at least solid defenders.

The Rebel wrote:
Next year no, as I said the Nuggets need at least 2 guys who are decent 3 point shooters in the starting lineup, my idea would be to bring back Iggy to start at the 3 while Gallo is out, starting fournier at the 2, and having Lee or someone similar as the 6th man with Hamilton fighting for good minutes. Once Gallo is back and recovered back into the starting lineup then Iggy can go back to the 2, with Gallo at the 3, and Fournier and the D3 guy fighting for minutes off the bench.

That being said it would not break my heart if the Nuggets lost Iggy, personally in 2 years I would rather see a long term starting PG/SG/SF lineup of Lawson/ fournier/ Gallo, with a couple of guys like Hamilton and a D3 guy off the bench. I think they would all work together well and would be pretty solid defensively. I just do not see Iggy holding up or ever being the leader of the team, and just like with the Warriors the more shooters you can keep on the floor the better, if they are at least solid defenders.

Iggy was a good shooter in the playoffs. He shot .483 from 3! I think he is finally getting comfortable in his role. However we need better FT shooters to cover his weakness there. He can be a good three point shooter if he plays in a well spaced offense.

I like the idea of Miller for Vince Carter to replace Brewer. Sign Collison with part of the MLE. I know that's two dallas players, but I think they would both be perfect fits.

Lawson/Collison/Stone?
Fournier/Vince/J.Hamilton
Iguodala/ Chandler/QMiller/Gallo*
Faried/Randolph/1st
Javale/Kosta/Moz?

If Brewer's 300+ attempts were taken by a 40% guy like Vince or Fournier, the nuggets would have made about 30 more threes on the year. That's an oversimplified view of it, but maybe the defense would have to start guarding the guy on the 3pt line? If andre was replaced by a consistent 35% 3pt shooter, I think that too would improve the nuggets offense, mostly in the half court. I think Collison shoots better than Miller from the FT line too. Brewer's effectiveness on the fast break is overstated. In my opinion, a player like Iggy, Chandler, or Gallo, who can defensive rebound and push the ball (maybe get it to the pg) is more effective than a player who just sprints out ahead of the defense. Carter could bring that to some extent as could Fournier.

I don't think anything radical has to be done. If you could replace Miller and Brewer with people who can present a reliable outside threat, and added Gallo back in that would go a long way. A big who could give them minutes off the bench like Al Harrington did a few years back could help too. And of course if Igoudala goes, you could replace him with a better shooter.

This probably won't be a popular perspective, but I think the identity of the Nuggets lies in the diversity. Missing Gallo hurt; without a star, the shortened rotation hurt them down the stretch. When Iguodala has to consistently be a go-to guy offensively, you're in trouble. But I think he's perfectly suited to the team (for now) when the Nuggets are at full strength. Ty Lawson can't be your only consistent scoring threat. IMO a nasty big wouldn't hurt either, even if he's not starting.

Rebel-there's a lot, so just a quick response to outside shooting....I know how much they did it, and I understand Gallo's shooting, but as an identity this team ate, breathed and lived fast break more than any Melo era team. Teams always go to threes as a rhythmic way to close deficits, pad leads, etc....but even as Gallo went down and the team continued to win, the defensive stop to transition bucket became even more prominent.

And Gallo was not back by Game Four.....those were four games where you really had to ask yourself.....do you want to live and die by the three? Failure to answer that question definitively killed the Gallo-less Nuggets.

Ok, and as to being tired and what effect that has.

GS every time they hit a three, that was a pierced heart for the Nuggets. For as hard as they work overall for all of their possessions, two threes back to back meant three trips up and down the court or more -three more chances Curry might hit another couple of threes. So yeah, even at that level making our team run 3 laps and easily adding another 3 laps and another 3 laps over and over can mentally fatigue even our top level athletes.

Only way to cut out that trend is to get the defensive stop and effectively convert a high percentage of those stops.

No one's gonna argue with me that defense is the way to advance in the playoffs. The type of defense Nuggets needed was the best disruption of shots they could figure out, then rebound or outlet pass, then score a bucket.

Not ONLY did they fail to hit the threes they attempted, they also missed converting many of the defensive stops. With the frequency GS hit threes, the ONLY way to battle that effectively for the Nuggets was for them to be equally as effective at THEIR game, which without Gallo HAD to be converting whatever defensive stops they could corral.

The "flash point" of hot was reached by GS and Curry. The flash point of hot for the Nuggets kept getting taken off the burner.

manchambo wrote:I don't think anything radical has to be done. If you could replace Miller and Brewer with people who can present a reliable outside threat, and added Gallo back in that would go a long way. A big who could give them minutes off the bench like Al Harrington did a few years back could help too. And of course if Igoudala goes, you could replace him with a better shooter.

This ^


Al did well for us. Somehow if we were fighting for our life in the GS series Harrington or Afflalo would have provided that key three at the right moments.

A side thought- when you have a world class three point shooter 45% or above, does that inspire the on the cusp shooters like Corey Brewer to perform better? Maybe grab one sharp shooter to inspire the rest of the crew.

83SixersRocked wrote:This probably won't be a popular perspective, but I think the identity of the Nuggets lies in the diversity. Missing Gallo hurt; without a star, the shortened rotation hurt them down the stretch. When Iguodala has to consistently be a go-to guy offensively, you're in trouble. But I think he's perfectly suited to the team (for now) when the Nuggets are at full strength. Ty Lawson can't be your only consistent scoring threat. IMO a nasty big wouldn't hurt either, even if he's not starting.

Well, along those lines I believe we were hoping Mozgov would have developed a bit. Not the nastiest obviously. When I think of the big Russian I think of the one that completely shut down Melo when we played the Jazz a couple years ago. Fesenko I think his name was.

Reading this thread it makes me shake my head. Every year the Nuggets have the same problem, it is obvious if you pay attention to what the defense is doing.

For all the hype of the Nuggets running offense, it depends on the other team making mistakes. As I said numerous times, when the defense can relax and catch their breath, it is damn near impossible to get them to make mistakes on offense, these guys spend thousands of hours on their game, they are good when they are rested and feel good. You have to force them to work on defense, in the half court, with shooters you can do it.

You are right Iggy shoot 48.3% from 3 in the playoffs, and almost every one of them was wide open. The defense did not respect him as an outside shooter. Overall the Nuggets shot 22.5 3 pointers a game and only hit 7 a game for a total shooting percentage of 31.1% if you think that is good enough to win playoff games, then go watch some Nuggets playoffs games on tape, and watch opposing defense.

As for living and dieing by the 3, please show me where I said that? I said clearly multiple times that the Nuggets need at least 2 shooters in the starting lineup and 3 off the bench. Asking for 1/3 of your roster to be able to hit outside shots is not outrageous, or saying you want a team to live and die by the 3, it just means you understand what it takes to win in the NBA in an era where teams are allowed to pack the paint.

The Nuggets spent most of the Warriors series looking like the team that was not used to running, while the Warriors spent most of the series looking completely comfortable, you bring up the fact that the Warriors could run down and hit 2 straight 3s, forcing the Nuggets to make 3 straight scores just to match that, and yet your answer is that the Nuggets need to play more defense? How about they get a couple of good 3 point shooters to lower the amount of trips they have to take down the court, so that they have the energy to play more defense?

this whole idea that just the defense creates wins with the way you describe is funny. How do you think the Nuggets created so many turnovers every year yet they are always in the bottom 3rd in the league for 3 point percentage? the Nuggets play a gambling defense built on switching, playing passing lanes, and capitalizing on opponents mistakes. What happens when a team has plenty of time to game plan against you and is allowed to relax and rest on defense? The Nuggets show that regardless of how well their defense can work in regular season only being able to capably score points in the paint, and not having capable 3 pointer shooters leads to teams being out of the playoffs in round 1 9 out of 10 years.

Can you tell me what the difference between the 09 team was compared to the other Nuggets teams throughout the years? I can tell you 2 things, that team was the most physical defensive team I have ever seen in Denver, and they had 2 guys who were borderline elite from 3 putting up a combined 10.7 3s a game, with Melo also hitting well above league average on 2.6 attempts a game. They forced a defense to cover them not allowing them to pack 5 guys within 12 feet of the basket.

This whole idea that the Nuggets do not need to change anything is a joke, the Nuggets have had a team built on the same gambling defensive concept for 10 years, and it has resulted in 1 trip out of the 1st round. Fact is in today's NBA you need outside shooters that make the defense respect them enough to step out to the 3 point line. Defense wins games, and allowing the opposition the option to only guard 20 square feet instead of 40 puts you in a dramatic disadvantage no matter how you try to explain it away.

George Karl is staying, though my preference would be for David Blatt, so I think we need a mastermind assistant. I'd throw Larry Eustachy into that mix due to his connections with ownership. I think he'd be ideal if we can't get a replacement for Karl. Then he could be groomed to take over possibly in the future. Basically Tim Floyd with better player ego management skills.

We saw OKC is not bullet proof, the Lakers fell apart, Spurs are aging... the main thing is to address problems (coaching, shooting) without ruining the good thing we got going. I don't support an Iggy contract that is so high we can't trade him. I think the offers for him will be higher than Denver should go.

Right now the top issue should be to get this draft right. If we aren't high on someone with our pick I think we should flip it for someone like the rights to... Bogdanovic, Norel, Tomic, or Nick Calathes. But Karasev is a shooter... maybe Karl would like this guy. The reports out of the Hoops Summit practices is that Karasev held his own guarding Andrew Wiggins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt8LPF4hFEU

We need a go-to offensive unit with 3 wings, all of which can shoot about 55 eFG% from three. Only counting guys who play 15+ minutes a game, with Ty at the 1 and Gallo injured, we had ONE such shooter in the playoffs. In comparison, the Spurs have FIVE (similarly not counting Parker as primary ball-handler).

I'm not totally anti-Miller (like apparently most on here). And I actually like Karl's tendency to play two PGs together (in general). BUT...Ty + Andre flat-out doesn't work. Ty is the better primary ball-handler, which forces Andre into an off-ball role. Andre doesn't fit that role at all - mainly because he's one of the worst-shooting PGs in the NBA.

Replace him with a PG/SG hybrid who can initiate the offense when Ty sits, but also space the floor and provide an off-ball scoring threat alongside Ty. Ideal is someone like Curry, Manu, or Harden, but more realistically...Kidd? Chauncey? Not sure who might be available and would be willing to be the 2nd PG.

This becomes our go-to offensive unit:
Ty
new PG/SG
Gallo
WChandler
Faried/McGee

Better luck with injuries next year and the retention of guys who have been there and done it, i.e. Billups means the style Coach Karl has proven this year to work so well (ignoring the Playoff difficulties) has the potential to be built in to a real Championship-challenging one.

Keeping hold of Iggy and keeping the core of the roster together, with the addition of some hungry, proven NBA players means there isn't a great deal of upheaval required to challenge again next season.