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I was noticing another thread and the thought crossed my mind: Is Denver just a middle of the pack team ??

Seems we don't want to tank (even when we did we couldn't succeed), the top FA's don't want to come here and we make mediocre trades. This leads us to one thing...mediocrity !!!

Now, Nurkic looks to be a beast but he 'looks to me to be the only player with All-Star potential. Lawson is at a near-All-Star level, but he uses his speed and quickness to achieve and that won't stay for many more years. Faried is still young and athletic, but he's just a high quality energy guy, love him as a Nugget, but he is what he is.

We need to make some moves in the next two drafts. Now the NYK 2016 pick has potential, but the same could be said of ours, it's like we're fight ourselves with that one. The OKC pick, at it's best will be 19th+ this year or probably in the 20's next year. The only other shot ( for the moment) is to hope Gasol signs with another team (not named the Knicks that is) and that the Grizzlies are real bad in 2017.

I know we should have a ton of cap room in the 2016 offseason and the cap will be going up, but that same cap room will be there for 29 other teams to throw at FA's. We need to show teams we're serious by getting solid picks NOW. Some (including myself) tout the impending arrival of Jokic and Lauvergne, but no one really knows how they will fare in the NBA. I say we package our pick and the OKC pick, perhaps add in WC, this year and try to move up to thr 4-7 range. Love to get Stanley Johnson or D'Angelo Russell maybe even a Karl Anthony-Towns to play PF. We HAVE to start get some impact players into our system or we are bound to be a feeder team.

Impact players will mean nothing as long as Shaw is the coach, hell the players do not even know what system Shaw is trying to run.

The Rebel wrote:Impact players will mean nothing as long as Shaw is the coach, hell the players do not even know what system Shaw is trying to run.

Can't disagree with that at all, I can't see him lasting into next season. However that's a whole different thread....

The basic chemistry and talent that won 57 games is sitting right there in that locker room. Plus we have Jameer Nelson, who is capable of adding even more.

The enthusiasm? Like a slow bellows, hot on one stroke and sucking the heat out of the building on the other.

GK loved his job. I'll say that much.

pickaxe wrote:The basic chemistry and talent that won 57 games is sitting right there in that locker room. Plus we have Jameer Nelson, who is capable of adding even more.

The enthusiasm? Like a slow bellows, hot on one stroke and sucking the heat out of the building on the other.

GK loved his job. I'll say that much.

I TOTALLY disagree with you, the chemistry of that team is gone, and while many of the same players are still here, the talent level has changed immensely. Injuries, philosophies, lack of direction, uncertainty of job security...those things affect chemistry and talent.

Until the FO determines the direction we are going, we're headed nowhere !! We showed absolutely NO HEART or PRIDE today, it was a lay down effort. Glad some of the young guys got minutes, but this team isn't anywhere close to a 57 win team. I am all for bringing in an infusion of talent to mesh with Nurkic and Harris, along with a minor few vets for leadership. And for God sake, get rid of Shaw at season's end. !!!!!!! Let him finish driving a stake into the Nuggets hearts just as McDaniels did for the Broncos, time to start again !!

skywalker33 wrote:

pickaxe wrote:The basic chemistry and talent that won 57 games is sitting right there in that locker room. Plus we have Jameer Nelson, who is capable of adding even more.

The enthusiasm? Like a slow bellows, hot on one stroke and sucking the heat out of the building on the other.

GK loved his job. I'll say that much.

I TOTALLY disagree with you, the chemistry of that team is gone, and while many of the same players are still here, the talent level has changed immensely. Injuries, philosophies, lack of direction, uncertainty of job security...those things affect chemistry and talent.

Until the FO determines the direction we are going, we're headed nowhere !! We showed absolutely NO HEART or PRIDE today, it was a lay down effort. Glad some of the young guys got minutes, but this team isn't anywhere close to a 57 win team. I am all for bringing in an infusion of talent to mesh with Nurkic and Harris, along with a minor few vets for leadership. And for God sake, get rid of Shaw at season's end. !!!!!!! Let him finish driving a stake into the Nuggets hearts just as McDaniels did for the Broncos, time to start again !!

The chemistry lacks one ingredient. Actually, there are a number of ingredients that would bring the recipe together.

Shaw's trying to motivate them by allowing them to party more and sleep more. Talent can sleepwalk. Chemistry can not rise when there ain't any baking soda.

You are mistaking this gathering of individuals for just a mish-mash that never had any direction or cohesion where I am seeing it as one that keeps dropping the things that make them rise.

Look, man. We were fine when we had Carmelo. We were fine when we had George Karl without Melo. Some people wanted to make some changes and stir the pot and now this is what we have. Either perfect this maverick recipe or don't complain next time a hall of fame coach leads 2005 young team from the dregs to the playoffs, and does it TWICE with a completely new team and then gets fired for the best work of his career.

This team crossed the Rubicon. Can't go back. Can't go too far forward without risking years of development. Other invested individuals may lose hope in the team too. You never know who contributed to the baking soda.

Just add the damn baking soda and enjoy the damn cake.

pickaxe wrote:Chemistry can not rise when there ain't any baking soda.

Well played.

I'm not defending Shaw here, but let's not act like Karl's teams didn't lack motivation. Those teams, with or without Melo, were notorious for starting slow, playing down to opponents, and generally not giving a ****. I still stand by the decision to fire Karl and the fact that damn near every loyal nuggets fan at the time agreed. We needed to find out if this group of guys could legitimately win something or if they were fools gold created by an uptempo system. I'm not ready to fold entirely but unfortunately, I think we're starting to learn the latter is the truth

I disagree, we wanted to see what another coach could do and if it was fools gold under Karl, but how can you judge guys when they are playing for a coach with a system so bad national writers are writing about it? You cannot judge a player who is asked to try to fit into a terrible system, and when they struggle blame it on the players.

From the best I can tell Shaw's system is designed to get guys long range 2s, and the defense will give them to you every time. simply because any coach in basketball knows it is the worst shot in basketball, most players shoot that shot at 40% or less, you do not draw many fouls, and then we wonder why guys cannot hit shots. We also wonder why teams pack the paint to stop any drives, they know through the scouting reports that the Nuggets will be trying long 2s and not 3s so they just wait for the rebound it happens more often than not.

The whole man to man defense with switching one game and no switching the next also makes no sense, trying to have Faried or Hickson guarding guys like Aldridge one on one is a terrible idea, hell having Afflalo guarding Wiggins most of the TWolves game while Wiggins put up 15 points on almost perfect shooting in the 1st quarter was not helping them succeed, but making it easier on the opposing team.

Another thing I have noticed is that the bigs do not seem to know how to do an outlet pass. Well we know Faried does, but most of the bigs grab the ball and either wait for a guard to come get it, or they try to bring it up themselves. That allows the defense time to get set and organized, and prevents any easy shots for the Nuggets.

Those are all problems created by coaching, yet they all make our players stats look worse, and make them look worse on defense. Which is why I have said for the last several weeks that I refuse to judge our players as long as someone as incompetent as Shaw is the head coach.

Right, and I'm not saying Shaw is blameless here because he's clearly doing a terrible job. But you're implying a roster like this can only win under a system similar to Karl's. And if it wasn't going to work under Karl himself, who could it possibly work under? George was way too stubborn and his system was too flawed to ever have playoff success. Shaw might not be the right guy to lead it, but we need to continue building this team with the goal of postseason success. I honestly think Ty, Nurkic, Faried and Harris can be a solid foundation that can run the floor, slow it down in the half court, and also defend. I'd hate to see them go back to the run-and-gun-at-all-costs style.

RRFB wrote:Right, and I'm not saying Shaw is blameless here because he's clearly doing a terrible job. But you're implying a roster like this can only win under a system similar to Karl's. And if it wasn't going to work under Karl himself, who could it possibly work under? George was way too stubborn and his system was too flawed to ever have playoff success. Shaw might not be the right guy to lead it, but we need to continue building this team with the goal of postseason success. I honestly think Ty, Nurkic, Faried and Harris can be a solid foundation that can run the floor, slow it down in the half court, and also defend. I'd hate to see them go back to the run-and-gun-at-all-costs style.

I was editing my post when you posted this, so you will have to reread that post.

I personally do not think that Karl's system was the problem with post season play, and I have said that for a long time. If anything that system got a lot of teams to the post season that should not have been there especially considering that the Nuggets had at least 1 of their good bigs out for the season every year, and there were plenty of bad players playing meaningful minutes. Minutes that they could not get elsewhere but could due to Karl's love of the hardworking role player and injuries. And of course Gallo 2 years ago was the difference maker on that team and losing him cost us the playoffs.

Karl's big problem especially in he playoffs were 2 fold, his love for guys like AC and his inability to make adjustments in game.

The fact is with the lack of good low post players the drive and kick system that Karl used made a lot of sense, even with the Nuggets not having enough 3 point shooters most of the time while Karl was here. It opened up lanes, created points in the paint, and got players wide open 3s, what more can you ask from an offense on a team without a dominant scorer and no low post threat?

If you look at those teams the Nuggets never once had a big as talented in the post as Nurkic is currently looking, that is a huge detriment in the post season. They also did not have a dominant scorer after they traded Melo and still do not, but under Karl he got them to buy into the system and do it as a team, while Shaw wants Ty or someone else to suddenly become that guy and they just are not that guy. While Melo was in Denver the team that did the best had JR Smith at the top of his game and Chauncey playing close to how he was in his prime. In other words they finally had outside shooting and health, and that team made it to the western conference finals.

To have post season success you have to get there, and this team is not going to the playoffs under Shaw.

Also I am not as high on Ty, Faried, or Harris being key players in a team focused on the half court. Harris has not even really shown much at this point and has a long way to go to show that he is an NBA player, and Ty and faried struggle to much on defense to always be trying to play man to man defense. Also Ty does not have the mentality to be a dominant player every game, Karl bitched about it and so has Shaw, so I would say it is not happening.

As is this team is dependent heavily on Nurkic developing into a great post player and Gallo returning to where he was 2 years ago, as the Nuggets desperately need a secondary ball handler on the perimeter that has a complete game, and they desperately need a post presence on the court for anything like the Shaw system to work.

I'd agree with most of that. It wasn't Karl's system that held this team back as much as it was his stubbornness with adjustments and habitual favoritism towards players like AC and Brewer. But my point is that I can't see anyone coaching that system to more success than Karl did. Who's the next best option? D'Antoni? Do you really want to go that route?

IMO, we're far more likely to retool this roster into a team that can find a balance between half court offense/defense while still being able to take advantage of the altitude, than we are to have success going back to the run and gun style.

RRFB wrote:Right, and I'm not saying Shaw is blameless here because he's clearly doing a terrible job. But you're implying a roster like this can only win under a system similar to Karl's. And if it wasn't going to work under Karl himself, who could it possibly work under? George was way too stubborn and his system was too flawed to ever have playoff success. Shaw might not be the right guy to lead it, but we need to continue building this team with the goal of postseason success. I honestly think Ty, Nurkic, Faried and Harris can be a solid foundation that can run the floor, slow it down in the half court, and also defend. I'd hate to see them go back to the run-and-gun-at-all-costs style.

Under Karl we had a franchise record for wins, wins streaks, home wins, road wins. We went to the western conference finals and had one of the longest run of making the playoffs in the nba. What part about that isn't working? Because you haven't won a championship? Has Karl really had a roster that he should have done better with?

It's simple statistics only one team wins a championship so most head coaches are not going to win one. Especially with mid market teams like Denver, Seattle, and Milwaukee. Karl wanted to coach here and if you didn't like him, that's fine, but who is really going to replace him that you believe will 'bring a championship'? Is Popovich going to come coach? Phil Jackson? The list of coaches that I would put distinctly ahead of Karl as coaches are less than I can count on one hand, and I don't believe that any of them would come to Denver, especially after how Kroenke treated Karl.

RRFB wrote:I'd agree with most of that. It wasn't Karl's system that held this team back as much as it was his stubbornness with adjustments and habitual favoritism towards players like AC and Brewer. But my point is that I can't see anyone coaching that system to more success than Karl did. Who's the next best option? D'Antoni? Do you really want to go that route?

IMO, we're far more likely to retool this roster into a team that can find a balance between half court offense/defense while still being able to take advantage of the altitude, than we are to have success going back to the run and gun style.

OF course we are going to retool, if Shaw still has a job today then they have to do something, if nothing else than to keep some sort of fan interest in the team. The problem is you are never going to have a half court offense and defense that takes advantage of the altitude. To take advantage of the altitude you have to make guys run and this walk it up stuff and passing into the post or standing on the perimeter for 15 seconds is not the way to do it.

As I said I think the Karl system was fine, his adjustments and substitutions were the problem with Karl, but his system worked very well for the advantages this team had.

As for a replacement, I would rather give a good assistant a chance as opposed to D'antoni, but not every new coach runs systems like Shaw's. The truth is Kerr's system with the warriors is awful similar to Karl's system, as is the system they ran last year with the Suns, and the Spur's system that they won the championship with is not all the different either outside of the Nuggets wanting to run more and the Spurs having Duncan and Parker on the roster.

Karl's system was all about ball movement (especially in the half court) and only taking good shots. That is a system that works, but you have to have healthy talented players that can do it.

Shaw's system seems to be a blend of 1980s basketball without the running, almost a showtime lakers type system, but the Nuggets do not have Magic to run the system, nor KAJ in the post to dump the ball off to or depend on to clean up the messes.

even with Chandler starting the Nuggets have above average players at 4 of the 5 starting positions, Nurkic is not average yet but should be there and much further over the next few years, and they have a decent enough bench, but you have to use their strengths.

Us the pick and roll with Faried and Hickson, use lobs, have Chandler and Afflalo testing the defense and moving without the ball, force defenses to actually play defense. Let Chandler, Foye, Afflalo, and the other 2/3s that are capable have the ball and force the defense to make adjustments. Create a post where Nurkic has to battle 1 or they have to double down opening someone else, instead of letting the defenses sag into the paint.

Instead the Nuggets are depending on their PGs to create all the offense or dump the ball in the post, when Ty is feeling good it works, when he is not aggressive it does not work. Ty is not nor will he ever be a superstar partially due to his on and off game personality, and expecting him to be in unfair to him and the rest of the roster. As much as I like Nurkic he is not KAJ and right now is not even an all star type player, this team does not have 2 of the top 5 players to ever play in the NBA, but they have plenty of talent if our coach knows how to use them.

They have to find a new coach that understands a ball movement offense, and can get the guys to play defense. Under Shaw the defense is actually as bad as the worst year it ever was under Karl, our offense is much worse though. So a new coach has to get them to expend energy on defense and use a system that will work to their strengths. I am not sure who that guy is, but I would give Melvin Hunt the chance to coach from here to the end of the season, and if it works great, if not go after a Hawks or Spurs assistant coach, or even a Warriors assistant coach. Someone that works in a system that depends on ball movement and defense.

THE WHOLE TEAM SHOULD BE BLOWN UP. were the dumbest team in the league atm because we arent in the playoffs but were still trying to be competitive. we need upgrades at EVERY position. wilson chandler/kenneth faried/darrell arthur/foye/danilo/mcgoo/afflalo all need to go pronto. we have the most assests in the league and make no deals. no iso players no post players and a coach with a crap system. this season is horrible. we dont even have a high draft pick to look foward to. gary harris doesnt even touch the floor. idk if im going to watch this anymore until changes are made. nuggets games are hella boring nowadays

SS, I feel your pain, man, truly I do! Watching that GS game was a cold slap in the face. But to just dismantle this right away would be a bigger slap to Nuggets fan. Will it happen eventually....no doubt. I say AA, Foye and Chandler have a strong shot at leaving withing the next 30 days. No one is taking McGee THIS year and Gallo still remains a question mark as to should he stay/should he go IMO. But this year's departures NEED to net some positive value, not just a dumpster fire sale.

Puy it like this, the okc thunder have been a top 3 team in the west over the Last 4-5 years. Multiple western conf finals and a finals appearance. That being said, there's a is very high chance that they might get blown up in the next coming years due to durant and Westbrook leaving. If a team as good as okc could break up, why should we keep together a team who even in a peak year, aren't better than any of okc's recent teams? The nuggets are stuck on the mendoza line. We won't make any playoffs anytime soon and we can look forward to drafting 10-14 every year with no chances at a lottery pick. That's our current future/reality with our current team. We're the only team in the league that could beat the best team 1 night and lose to scrubs the next.

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You are reiterating what I stated in the OP, preaching to the choir !! I just say if we do it at appropriate times we'll be better served. And we need to utilize those assets to move up in the draft, I'd love to get Russell in this years draft !