Blow it up and build with Billups as the GM

Powder Blue · Post #1 » by **Powder Blue** » Tue Dec 1, 2015 4:35 am

Just to get a little action on here I'm going to present this scenario...

The Nuggets are BAD and Nurkic is no more a savior than a 19 year old Mudiay. I looked it up and the Nuggets are dead last in attendance drawing 13,600 which is 1000 less than they pulled last year....wow.

I think Josh Kroneke should eat some humble pie and do two things...

#1 Blow it up. What's the point of paying guys like Gallo and Faried when we're not winning and they aren't putting butts in the seats. Go get some assets however you can. Don't Ty Lawson it either. Make marginal deals if you have to but give yourself cap space and something to truly start fresh and build off of.

#2 Let Tim Connelly expire and sign Chauncey Billups as your next GM. Doing this would only work if you gave Billups a fair amount of power a la Elway but what is there to lose at this point. Does he have the experience TC has? No. Does he have the recognition to attracted talent and fans back to the Nuggets? I think so. The JC-TC combo just hasn't cut it. A couple promising draft picks? Maybe. But overall a terrible job re-tooling the team. They've sat on the same guys for years, played it too safe and I can't see them all of a sudden changing course.

eathb_au · Post #2 » by **eathb_au** » Tue Dec 1, 2015 7:07 am

I'm a bit undecided.

TC hasn't proven he can build a playoff team in the West but he does draft really well which is the most important factor in a rebuilding team like ours. The issue is that this is realistically rebuild year 1 as we've foolishly tried to contend the previous years living under the delusion of the 57W season, so we've basically wasted 2 years.

Post #3 » by **The Rebel** » Tue Dec 1, 2015 5:13 pm

Blow what up? The team does not have the talent to blow it up, the only veterans with value are Gallo and Faried, and with the way they shopped Faried for the last 2 years I doubt Faried has much value.

The reality is this team has no shooting, with Nurkic they have nobody over 6'10", their interior defense sucks without Nurkic or Jokic in the game, they have limited ball handling, and they are a very young core.

When you blow up a team you hope to get young talent and future picks, right now they Nuggets have 4 guys 21 or under, 3 of which are starting and 1 of which will play plenty of minutes when he gets back from injuries. They have all their future 1st round picks and 3 additional 1st round picks theoretically possible this year. How much young talent do you want or need?

The only thing they really need to do is change out the veteran guys on the bench namely Hickson, Foye, and Nelson taking what you can get and bring in young guys to replace them them let them grow. I just do not see that happening as for some reason TC and Josh seem to love those 3 guys.

TKF · Post #4 » by **TKF** » Tue Dec 1, 2015 7:38 pm

The Rebel wrote:Blow what up? The team does not have the talent to blow it up, the only veterans with value are Gallo and Faried, and with the way they shopped Faried for the last 2 years I doubt Faried has much value.

The reality is this team has no shooting, with Nurkic they have nobody over 6'10", their interior defense sucks without Nurkic or Jokic in the game, they have limited ball handling, and they are a very young core.

When you blow up a team you hope to get young talent and future picks, right now they Nuggets have 4 guys 21 or under, 3 of which are starting and 1 of which will play plenty of minutes when he gets back from injuries. They have all their future 1st round picks and 3 additional 1st round picks theoretically possible this year. How much young talent do you want or need?

The only thing they really need to do is change out the veteran guys on the bench namely Hickson, Foye, and Nelson taking what you can get and bring in young guys to replace them them let them grow. I just do not see that happening as for some reason TC and Josh seem to love those 3 guys.

As much of a gallo fan as I am, a bit problem with that team has been that guys like gallo and faried have been subpar. Gallo seems content with being one of the guys instead of using his talents to be a leader, and a more aggressive player. He is letting denver down If you ask me. Then you have some good young talent, I like Jokic a lot, the guy actually is a big man with some big man moves and a nice touch, both guys need time, I also like Barton and Harris, Denver has some nice young talent, and they have picks.

I do want to get rid of jameer nelson and foye at all cost, they are shoot happy guards who really are not good scorers, the often look off guys like gallo and faried to get their own shots, they are horrible.

I think mudiay will be a fantastic PG. Denver does need to make some changes, there is a market out there for gallo,for sure, I would look to start making trades soon.

skywalker33 · Post #5 » by **skywalker33** » Tue Dec 1, 2015 10:26 pm

Since when does a GM attract the talent ??? I seriously doubt a rookie GM will make the kind of difference you are suggestion. Would I like Chancey to be added to the FO...absolutely !! But I do think TC has drafted very well and this team will be built thru the draft NOT free agency so there is that.

As for trading Gallo and Faried, then you are talking straight-up tanking. Gallo can't be traded until Feb 1 at earliest so he is going to increase his value with better play or decrease it with inconsistency in his play, there is that dilemma. Faried, his market is so limited it'd really be a cut-bait trade IMO. I could see a mid-high 20's at best even though I think he's worth more. Also, if your trade these guys, you'll have to take back SOME kind of contract money, not gonna just be draft picks. Are THOSE the kind of guys who'll help put butts in the seats ?? Granted, with the AAA trade we did get back Barton, who looks really good so far, but that was more of a fluke than a planned part of the deal, we were really just going after that 1st (which now looks like 2 2nds).

I agree that some of TC's personnel decisions have been VERY questionable at best. Beyond the Hickson signing, his decision to pick up Foye's option at $3M was baffling as was his decision on DA, both veterans who clearly showed little for the future, only thing I can see they are adding is a veteran influence with NOTHING towards winning IMO. Jameer is in that category too, not as concerned with the $$$ more the number of years is what I find questionable. Have to agree that I believe Chauncey would have had better decision-makings in this area, not sure TC doesn't let the player's agents push him around in this area.

As for the team, did anyone REALLY think we'd looking at the playoffs this year, even I was a little mesmerized by a decent start but I never envisioned more than 35 wins. And honestly, I'd rather be at the top of the lottery with a young developing team than at the bottom. Simmons, Ingraham, Bender, Murray, Labissiere or Brown will make us a much better team than Diallo, Newman, Poeltl or Dunn will.

Frustrations with a young team will be a plenty, but we do have a promising young core that should get better....with time !!

tstrick33 · Post #6 » by **tstrick33** » Wed Dec 2, 2015 6:04 am

I actually think we're on the right track as far as a rebuild. It looks like we found some gems in Jokic, Barton, Lauvergne and Nurkic when he comes back. Mudiay will get better once he works on his shot selection. I like Mike Malone as the coach to help our rebuild. Our upcoming draft picks look plentiful, so we have some tools to work with. I actually like where this team is at right now.

If we end up getting a top 5 pick it would make for an interesting Free Agency. I don't think we can land a Superstar but we could be in the run for a Demar Derozan or Ryan Anderson.

We desperately need shooting so I hope we keep Gallo.

Post #7 » by **The Rebel** » Wed Dec 2, 2015 3:33 pm

tstrick33 wrote:I actually think we're on the right track as far as a rebuild. It looks like we found some gems in Jokic, Barton, Lauvergne and Nurkic when he comes back. Mudiay will get better once he works on his shot selection. I like Mike Malone as the coach to help our rebuild. Our upcoming draft picks look plentiful, so we have some tools to work with. I actually like where this team is at right now.

If we end up getting a top 5 pick it would make for an interesting Free Agency. I don't think we can land a Superstar but we could be in the run for a Demar Derozan or Ryan Anderson.

We desperately need shooting so I hope we keep Gallo.

Demar Derozan cannot shoot, and this idea of landing a superstar in free agency or trade is not going to happen anytime soon unless the superstar is from foreign lands. Like it or not Denver does not seem to have a very good reputation for urban Nba players around the country, they do not want to be here any more than they want to go to Utah. The fact that the last 3 big(ish) name players we have had here have found a way out of town and did not speak highly of the franchise or the town as they left does not help. That is the reason they have focused on the drafts and on foreign players as they know they are not getting the guy who grew up in compton or NYC to run to Denver 1st chance they get. As much as TC and Kroenke deny it, they have operated like it is the truth for at least the last few years. We have to develop our players, trade for young guys, and hope they want to stay in Denver long term. Maybe we will find a rare superstar that is willing to come here when we have a young playoff team that looks ready to take the next step, but I do not see any reason to count on that idea.

tstrick33 · Post #8 » by **tstrick33** » Wed Dec 2, 2015 5:59 pm

I said I don't think we can land a superstar, not go after a superstar.

Demar Derozan can't shoot but he can drive very well and will put up numbers at the 2 spot, which is our weakest position right now. He also adds size, defense and athleticism. Gary Harris is a nice role player, but he's not aggressive enough to put up big offensive numbers.

If I'm the Nuggets I target Ryan Anderson and overpay for him. The guy is one of the best shooters in the league and is something we desperately need.

Post #9 » by **The Rebel** » Wed Dec 2, 2015 6:42 pm

The reason the Nuggets take so many bad 3 pointers is because teams pack the paint, knowing the Nuggets really do not have dependable 3 point shooters, Derozan makes that problem worse not better.

Ryan Anderson is fine, but who's minutes is he going to take? Right now you have 4 bigs who need minutes with Lauvergne, Jokic, Nurkic, and Faried, and unless you are moving 2 or 3 of them then you are just spinning your wheels. Plus while it helps your 3 point shooting, it does nothing to help your biggest weaknesses which are interior defense and a terrible shooting back court, you can sign 3 point shooters but you have to have room for them.

Reality is the guy to go get is Bradley Beal, even if you have to overpay him. You need a starting SG that scares teams from 3, and that is more of a prototypical 2, and young; he is the guy. Get him to agree to a deal while the Wizards are chasing Durant and you may have an actual chance of getting him.

RRFB · Post #10 » by **RRFB** » Wed Dec 2, 2015 11:28 pm

Beal would be great, but we have no realistic chance of getting him. Even if the Wizards don't match, we won't be the only team with max money to throw at him.

This thread seems like an early overreaction to what everyone knew was going to be a rough couple months to start the season. The losses suck to watch, but I'd say these are the results we should be looking for. Our young guys have looked good but we're still losing and putting ourselves in position for (at least) another lottery pick.

The problem, along with the injuries, is that our veterans (Nelson, Foye, Hickson, Arthur, Miller) are absolutely worthless. The guys that are supposed to be leading and setting examples for the young guys are garbage on the floor. Trading Gallo and Faried for even more youth and draft picks doesn't help, it just makes us the Sixers of the West and that's not the right strategy IMO.

I've been relatively happy with the way TC has built this team through the draft. I have far more confidence in him continuing to do so with our plethora of draft picks than I do in giving Chauncey the keys and hoping his name is enough to lure some big name free agents.

skywalker33 · Post #11 » by **skywalker33** » Wed Dec 2, 2015 11:55 pm

RRFB wrote:Beal would be great, but we have no realistic chance of getting him. Even if the Wizards don't match, we won't be the only team with max money to throw at him.

This thread seems like an early overreaction to what everyone knew was going to be a rough couple months to start the season. The losses suck to watch, but I'd say these are the results we should be looking for. Our young guys have looked good but we're still losing and putting ourselves in position for (at least) another lottery pick.

The problem, along with the injuries, is that our veterans (Nelson, Foye, Hickson, Arthur, Miller) are absolutely worthless. The guys that are supposed to be leading and setting examples for the young guys are garbage on the floor. Trading Gallo and Faried for even more youth and draft picks doesn't help, it just makes us the Sixers of the West and that's not the right strategy IMO.

I've been relatively happy with the way TC has built this team through the draft. I have far more confidence in him continuing to do so with our plethora of draft picks than I do in giving Chauncey the keys and hoping his name is enough to lure some big name free agents.

This...so much THIS !! $17M for "veteran leadership" ...overpayment at best :banghead:

eathb_au · Post #12 » by **eathb_au** » Thu Dec 3, 2015 2:10 am

The Rebel wrote:Reality is the guy to go get is Bradley Beal, even if you have to overpay him. You need a starting SG that scares teams from 3, and that is more of a prototypical 2, and young; he is the guy. Get him to agree to a deal while the Wizards are chasing Durant and you may have an actual chance of getting him.

Just can't see it happening.

I've made a semi-realistic max/big contracts list on who I'd like to bring over the next offseason:
-Bradley Beal
-Nicholas Batum
-Hassan Whiteside
-Andre Drummond

Not max but big contracts: Al Horford, Harrison Barnes, DeMar DeRozan

tstrick33 · Post #13 » by **tstrick33** » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:10 pm

I agree with Rebel, our bigs aren't intimidating anyone. It would be interesting to see what Nurkic can do with Jokic and Lauvergne but he's not expected to be back until January, and I would bet he actually doesn't play at all.

Maybe they look into trading Faried and putting the full court press on Hassan Whiteside this offseason.

With all the assets we have it's pretty easy to see the Nuggets making a big move at the deadline or offseason, especially if we keep losing the way we are now.

iMoreland · Post #14 » by **iMoreland** » Thu Dec 3, 2015 7:11 pm

Dragan Bender will put butts in seats

tstrick33 · Post #15 » by **tstrick33** » Thu Dec 3, 2015 10:55 pm

Jokic can do everything Bender does. I know it's early but so far the only lottery prospect I am impressed with is Simmons. We'll have to see how the rest of the season plays out but the Nuggets need to focus on SG.

Logan18 · Post #16 » by **Logan18** » Fri Dec 4, 2015 6:39 am

tstrick33 wrote:Jokic can do everything Bender does. I know it's early but so far the only lottery prospect I am impressed with is Simmons. We'll have to see how the rest of the season plays out but the Nuggets need to focus on SG.

I don't agree, I see Bender as a lot more athletic than Jokic and probably a slightly better shooter. Jokic, however, won't be pushed around as much as bender will, and has better low post moves. I think the combination of Nurkic, Bender, Jokic, and Lauvergne would be awesome to watch in upcoming years! Simmons would be even better, I just don't see us getting the first pick.

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Powder Blue · Post #17 » by **Powder Blue** » Fri Dec 4, 2015 7:16 pm

Glad to see I sparked some conversation, sorry for the late reply.

Yes, TC has a solid draft resume but look at his FA signings. I agree you build your team through the draft. If that's the case and that's your strength wouldn't you acquire more picks then? If we're a few years off then admit it and maybe move a guy like Faried or Gallo if you can get a pick or two. I'm just frustrated with this "core". I think they tried to milk it a little too long.

I also don't think just being a good at the draft mean's you're fit to be a GM. You have to be able to evaluate current NBA talent and sign some players. With all the cap space will come free agents signings, it's inevitable. I've seen nothing in the past few years that leads me to believe this front office will spend the money wisely.

TKF · Post #18 » by **TKF** » Fri Dec 4, 2015 7:46 pm

tstrick33 wrote:I said I don't think we can land a superstar, not go after a superstar.

Demar Derozan can't shoot but he can drive very well and will put up numbers at the 2 spot, which is our weakest position right now. He also adds size, defense and athleticism. Gary Harris is a nice role player, but he's not aggressive enough to put up big offensive numbers.

If I'm the Nuggets I target Ryan Anderson and overpay for him. The guy is one of the best shooters in the league and is something we desperately need.

ryan anderson doesn't improve the nuggets at all, he is not an upgrade over gallo, and he doesn't defend well at all, something malone requires. Denver needs an actually SG with size.

TKF · Post #19 » by **TKF** » Fri Dec 4, 2015 7:48 pm

The Rebel wrote:The reason the Nuggets take so many bad 3 pointers is because teams pack the paint, knowing the Nuggets really do not have dependable 3 point shooters, Derozan makes that problem worse not better.

Ryan Anderson is fine, but who's minutes is he going to take? Right now you have 4 bigs who need minutes with Lauvergne, Jokic, Nurkic, and Faried, and unless you are moving 2 or 3 of them then you are just spinning your wheels. Plus while it helps your 3 point shooting, it does nothing to help your biggest weaknesses which are interior defense and a terrible shooting back court, you can sign 3 point shooters but you have to have room for them.

Reality is the guy to go get is Bradley Beal, even if you have to overpay him. You need a starting SG that scares teams from 3, and that is more of a prototypical 2, and young; he is the guy. Get him to agree to a deal while the Wizards are chasing Durant and you may have an actual chance of getting him.

exactly, a SG who can shoot and has size is what denver needs, not a ryan anderson. Beal would cost a fortune tho..

Powder Blue · Post #20 » by **Powder Blue** » Fri Dec 4, 2015 8:14 pm

RRFB wrote:Beal would be great, but we have no realistic chance of getting him. Even if the Wizards don't match, we won't be the only team with max money to throw at him.

This thread seems like an early overreaction to what everyone knew was going to be a rough couple months to start the season. The losses suck to watch, but I'd say these are the results we should be looking for. Our young guys have looked good but we're still losing and putting ourselves in position for (at least) another lottery pick.

The problem, along with the injuries, is that our veterans (Nelson, Foye, Hickson, Arthur, Miller) are absolutely worthless. The guys that are supposed to be leading and setting examples for the young guys are garbage on the floor. Trading Gallo and Faried for even more youth and draft picks doesn't help, it just makes us the Sixers of the West and that's not the right strategy IMO.

I've been relatively happy with the way TC has built this team through the draft. I have far more confidence in him continuing to do so with our plethora of draft picks than I do in giving Chauncey the keys and hoping his name is enough to lure some big name free agents.

We don't have a plethora of picks. Right now in 2016 we'll only have our own pick. No pick swap because the Knicks are playing well, no Blazers or Rockets picks because they are playing bad. Maybe we'll get that Rockets one back.

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Nuggets.htm