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First, I want to say that I became a Nuggets fan the day you drafted Jamal Murray (I also follow the Raptors as my other team). Anyways, I wanted to know why your commentators and fans accept that Jokic is your best player like its a fact. I watch almost every Nuggets game and I've seen multiple players be the main contributor in wins and Jokic is often a no show. I should point out that no one has been really consistent except Lyles/Harris. So what exactly makes Jokic more of a franchise player than guys like Harris or Murray? Even Lyles if he continues to play the way he has looks like he could be a star (he's a better defender than Jokic already IMO and he has a really nice offensive game).

Jokic is a unique big man. He's a good shooter from any range, he's got nice footwork and his passing/vision is second-to-none for a Centre.

Essentially there are very few C's in the league with his skill set, and whilst Murray and Harris are great talents, players of that ilk are easier to find.

This is a very strange question because there are just a few players in the league which have a bigger impact on their team game and results (Lebron, Harden, Giannis... and who else?).

But I can agree that Harris is one of the most underrated players in whole NBA (not only in Denver) and that Murray will have bright future (future all-star most probably). Another player which deserved to be mentioned is Paul Millsap, but unfortunately just when he started to play how we expected from him, he received bad injury.

I guess you are from Canada and have a special interest in watching Murray and Lyles. If trends from this month continue I have a feeling many other Canadians will join this Nuggets subforum and fanbase very soon! Jamal Murray is arguably best Canadian player in December, for the first time better than Wiggins, and Trey Lyles right from nowhere (he is non-factor last season in Utah, and in OCT+NOV here) become TOP3 player from Canada, with stronger numbers than Olynyk or Tristian Thompson. The biggest problem with Murray was inconsistency, in October and November he has many amazing games but at over of half matches (11 out of 20), he scored just 10 or fewer points. But in December there is less than 30% of such "bad days" (4 out of 14) and he scored 22+ in almost half of this month matches (6 out of 14) where especially notable is his 3pt improvement (he is under 35% career, now over 50% in December). Jokic will be in the middle of Nuggets success story for a while, but according to what we can now witnessing in Denver, I don't think it is not too early already to ask: Why is Wiggins considered the Canada best player???

If you had watched the Nuggets after Dec 15th of last year, it was clear that Jokic was the Nuggets best player. This year's team is running a different offense and it reduces Jokic's effectiveness. (Why they changed is a mystery.) With that said, Jokic is still the biggest influence on win-lose.

Looking at just the young players, there is no doubt Harris is absolutely a rising star. Murray is my personal favorite, so my view may be skewed but I think he'll be the go-to-guy for late game situations in the future. IMO his potential is yet to be fully seen.

In the rare glimpses we see of him, Beasley seems like he could be a serious contributor. Hernangomez showed some potential last year but his illness seems to have really slowed him down this year.

However, Lyles appears to be attempting to become one of the Nuggets top-3 or maybe top-2 (could he be shooting for "king of the team" )?

It sure looks like there's a nice future, but until any of them prove themselves individually and collectively, our excitement should be tempered (if rabid fans know how to do that).

NuggetsWY wrote:If you had watched the Nuggets after Dec 15th of last year, it was clear that Jokic was the Nuggets best player. This year's team is running a different offense and it reduces Jokic's effectiveness. (Why they changed is a mystery.) With that said, Jokic is still the biggest influence on win-lose.

Looking at just the young players, there is no doubt Harris is absolutely a rising star. Murray is my personal favorite, so my view may be skewed but I think he'll be the go-to-guy for late game situations in the future. IMO his potential is yet to be fully seen.

In the rare glimpses we see of him, Beasley seems like he could be a serious contributor. Hernangomez showed some potential last year but his illness seems to have really slowed him down this year.

However, Lyles appears to be attempting to become one of the Nuggets top-3 or maybe top-2 (could he be shooting for "king of the team" )?

It sure looks like there's a nice future, but until any of them prove themselves individually and collectively, our excitement should be tempered (if rabid fans know how to do that).

I think Jokic is in this position because he was the first guy on the team to get to that "star" level and having a unique skill set for a big man doesn't hurt but he is not very consistent. I personally think that the back court of Murray and Harris is going to be the best part of this team in the future and that should be the focus of your offense (this is probably why the offense has changed as you suggested). Harris has actually taken a step back so far this year in terms of shooting % but he is shooting more and getting more pts as a result. I may be biased but if had to put money on it Murray is the most likely to emerge as your franchise player (he is way ahead of Harris at his age IMO). Murray has become much more consistent but he still has stretches/games where I find that he's not aggressive enough (I don't know if its conditioning or the fact that he's being pushed into an unnatural role). Anyways, I like the ball in Murray's hands but he's not a pass first guy and should look for his shot more in certain games. As for Lyles, I know you gave up Mitchell for him (I doubt you would have drafted him anyways), but he honestly he may be your most complete player right now (Shooting/driving/rebounding/High IQ/Good Defender) but lets hope this continues. There are tons of guys like Mitchell in the league but there are few big men who have the ability to do what Lyles does. Overall, The Nuggets are my favorite young team in the league. The Nuggets have a young potential star at every position but SF and you have the pieces to solve that problem as well with Farried/Chandler/milsap (if you choose to go ahead with Lyles) ,etc.

THE J0KER wrote:This is a very strange question because there are just a few players in the league which have a bigger impact on their team game and results (Lebron, Harden, Giannis... and who else?).

But I can agree that Harris is one of the most underrated players in whole NBA (not only in Denver) and that Murray will have bright future (future all-star most probably). Another player which deserved to be mentioned is Paul Millsap, but unfortunately just when he started to play how we expected from him, he received bad injury.

I guess you are from Canada and have a special interest in watching Murray and Lyles. If trends from this month continue I have a feeling many other Canadians will join this Nuggets subforum and fanbase very soon! Jamal Murray is arguably best Canadian player in December, for the first time better than Wiggins, and Trey Lyles right from nowhere (he is non-factor last season in Utah, and in OCT+NOV here) become TOP3 player from Canada, with stronger numbers than Olynyk or Tristian Thompson. The biggest problem with Murray was inconsistency, in October and November he has many amazing games but at over of half matches (11 out of 20), he scored just 10 or fewer points. But in December there is less than 30% of such "bad days" (4 out of 14) and he scored 22+ in almost half of this month matches (6 out of 14) where especially notable is his 3pt improvement (he is under 35% career, now over 50% in December). Jokic will be in the middle of Nuggets success story for a while, but according to what we can now witnessing in Denver, I don't think it is not too early already to ask: Why is Wiggins considered the Canada best player???

Wiggins is very overrated and I honestly question whether he even enjoys playing basketball. If I had a contender and I was looking to improve my team I would take Murray/Lyles/Olynyk all over Wiggins. We argue about this a lot on the "Canada Basketball" section in the Raptors forum. Wiggins has the ability to do one thing and that's score. He is terrible at every other aspect of the game and recently he hasn't even been good at scoring (he's been more inconsistent than Murray). I'm not the biggest Wiggins fan but it would be cool if you guys pulled a trade for him (he may be another Lyles). Maybe playing with other Canadians like Murray and Lyles or just a change a coaching change would help him find his way (Butler abilities overlap way too much).

Denver would have a youth lineup of:

PG Murray
SG Harris
SF Wiggins
PF Lyles
C Jokic

_Joker wrote:Jokic is a unique big man. He's a good shooter from any range, he's got nice footwork and his passing/vision is second-to-none for a Centre.

Essentially there are very few C's in the league with his skill set, and whilst Murray and Harris are great talents, players of that ilk are easier to find.

This is true but how many guys like Jokic are the stars on a championship teams? We have all seen what guards like Irving/Curry/Thompson/Wade,etc have done.

If you limit your mindset to "Guards vs. Jokic" then I'd advise to revise your approach.
Jokic on offense is an upper echelon all-time point and he was the maestro behind the best offenses in the league last year. When he had command the offense was scoring at will. To begin with, having an out of position ball-handler like Jokic is why Harris can flourish as an off-ball player. He's been thrown into the fire this year with Millsap and Jokic missing time and his improvement as a scorer is encouraging, but I'd rather not have him as a primary or secondary ball-handler in the offense.

It's fair to point out Jokic's inconsistency this year but it's not very smart to prop up Murray in the same sentence... he was a lot better last year by his own admittance when he was the tertiary ball-handler with Jokic and Nelson shuffling pieces around and letting Murray get free out of pin-downs.

U hova wrote:If you limit your mindset to "Guards vs. Jokic" then I'd advise to revise your approach.
Jokic on offense is an upper echelon all-time point and he was the maestro behind the best offenses in the league last year. When he had command the offense was scoring at will. To begin with, having an out of position ball-handler like Jokic is why Harris can flourish as an off-ball player. He's been thrown into the fire this year with Millsap and Jokic missing time and his improvement as a scorer is encouraging, but I'd rather not have him as a primary or secondary ball-handler in the offense.

It's fair to point out Jokic's inconsistency this year but it's not very smart to prop up Murray in the same sentence... he was a lot better last year by his own admittance when he was the tertiary ball-handler with Jokic and Nelson shuffling pieces around and letting Murray get free out of pin-downs.

I am propping Murray up because this is his first year as a starter and he is playing out of position (he should be playing the SG). Also, I'm not knocking Jokic either he's a great player I am just saying that has been inconsistent (so has Murray)and may not be the go to guy when all is said because there aren't too many examples of championship teams with guys like Jokic/Towns/Mark Gasol, etc anchoring them.

TooBad wrote:

U hova wrote:If you limit your mindset to "Guards vs. Jokic" then I'd advise to revise your approach.
Jokic on offense is an upper echelon all-time point and he was the maestro behind the best offenses in the league last year. When he had command the offense was scoring at will. To begin with, having an out of position ball-handler like Jokic is why Harris can flourish as an off-ball player. He's been thrown into the fire this year with Millsap and Jokic missing time and his improvement as a scorer is encouraging, but I'd rather not have him as a primary or secondary ball-handler in the offense.

It's fair to point out Jokic's inconsistency this year but it's not very smart to prop up Murray in the same sentence... he was a lot better last year by his own admittance when he was the tertiary ball-handler with Jokic and Nelson shuffling pieces around and letting Murray get free out of pin-downs.

I am propping Murray up because this is his first year as a starter and he is playing out of position (he should be playing the SG). Also, I'm not knocking Jokic either he's a great player I am just saying that has been inconsistent (so has Murray)and may not be the go to guy when all is said because there aren't too many examples of championship teams with guys like Jokic/Towns/Mark Gasol, etc anchoring them.

I'd like to see Murray given more consistent opportunities, but I believe he can be an ideal PG in the modern NBA. Scoring & shooting are a key part of PG in today's NBA.

TooBad wrote:

U hova wrote:If you limit your mindset to "Guards vs. Jokic" then I'd advise to revise your approach.
Jokic on offense is an upper echelon all-time point and he was the maestro behind the best offenses in the league last year. When he had command the offense was scoring at will. To begin with, having an out of position ball-handler like Jokic is why Harris can flourish as an off-ball player. He's been thrown into the fire this year with Millsap and Jokic missing time and his improvement as a scorer is encouraging, but I'd rather not have him as a primary or secondary ball-handler in the offense.

It's fair to point out Jokic's inconsistency this year but it's not very smart to prop up Murray in the same sentence... he was a lot better last year by his own admittance when he was the tertiary ball-handler with Jokic and Nelson shuffling pieces around and letting Murray get free out of pin-downs.

I am propping Murray up because this is his first year as a starter and he is playing out of position (he should be playing the SG). Also, I'm not knocking Jokic either he's a great player I am just saying that has been inconsistent (so has Murray)and may not be the go to guy when all is said because there aren't too many examples of championship teams with guys like Jokic/Towns/Mark Gasol, etc anchoring them.

Jokic is not inconsistent , his role on the team has changed this season , he's still having a good season and yes he's the most talented and I would say still the best player on the team. Layles have just started being a part of the regular rotation , some 15 games, he's still kind of unknown player to the opposing teams, we will see how he does as the season progresses . Murray is a shooter ,and that's about it, I would say selfish scorer , he doesn't make his teammates better at all , decision making is not that good, also I have him as a weakest defender on the team . Did you ever heard of Pau Gasol , he was instrumental in those Los Angeles championships and Jokic have similar skill set . He can ,pass, and score in different ways , you can build any kind of offense around Jokic. He can be integral part of the championship team if he's used correctly, GS have won championship with Zaza startin at C , Denver can't contend with Murray being starting PG and the late game shot taker , he's just not good in that role .

Mickey8 wrote:

TooBad wrote:

U hova wrote:If you limit your mindset to "Guards vs. Jokic" then I'd advise to revise your approach.
Jokic on offense is an upper echelon all-time point and he was the maestro behind the best offenses in the league last year. When he had command the offense was scoring at will. To begin with, having an out of position ball-handler like Jokic is why Harris can flourish as an off-ball player. He's been thrown into the fire this year with Millsap and Jokic missing time and his improvement as a scorer is encouraging, but I'd rather not have him as a primary or secondary ball-handler in the offense.

It's fair to point out Jokic's inconsistency this year but it's not very smart to prop up Murray in the same sentence... he was a lot better last year by his own admittance when he was the tertiary ball-handler with Jokic and Nelson shuffling pieces around and letting Murray get free out of pin-downs.

I am propping Murray up because this is his first year as a starter and he is playing out of position (he should be playing the SG). Also, I'm not knocking Jokic either he's a great player I am just saying that has been inconsistent (so has Murray)and may not be the go to guy when all is said because there aren't too many examples of championship teams with guys like Jokic/Towns/Mark Gasol, etc anchoring them.

Jokic is not inconsistent , his role on the team has changed this season , he's still having a good season and yes he's the most talented and I would say still the best player on the team. Layles have just started being a part of the regular rotation , some 15 games, he's still kind of unknown player to the opposing teams, we will see how he does as the season progresses . Murray is a shooter ,and that's about it, I would say selfish scorer , he doesn't make his teammates better at all , decision making is not that good, also I have him as a weakest defender on the team . Did you ever heard of Pau Gasol , he was instrumental in those Los Angeles championships and Jokic have similar skill set . He can ,pass, and score in different ways , you can build any kind of offense around Jokic. He can be integral part of the championship team if he's used correctly, GS have won championship with Zaza startin at C , Denver can't contend with Murray being starting PG and the late game shot taker , he's just not good in that role .

Wow! Some rather extreme thoughts here and no doubt many will disagree, but you have a right to your opinion and thank you for sharing it.

I just have pointed out that Murray is not the PG, he's not like Curry who can dish it as well , I don't see how the Nuggets can have great success in the post season without solid PG play, Murray is averaging just 2 assists per game, that's bad , what hurts the most is the late game decisions by him, he cost the the Nuggets several games so far.

Mickey8 wrote:I just have pointed out that Murray is not the PG, he's not like Curry who can dish it as well , I don't see how the Nuggets can have great success in the post season without solid PG play, Murray is averaging just 2 assists per game, that's bad , what hurts the most is the late game decisions by him, he cost the the Nuggets several games so far.

Well, you point out your opinion of Murray's shortcomings yet totally ignore that Jokic's assist are down from last year. If Jokic is the true "point-center" of the team, that totally changes what Murray's role is, he needs to be the shooter he currently is. As for Jokic's inconsistency, he has had games where he's a back round player with minimal impact on the game, just check the game logs. However he is still young and developing his game, it''s not because Malone hates him or he not being utilized incorrectly or not getting all the shots or etc....

As for your Gasol comparison, it's very astute yet it was a shooter, Kobe Bryant, who was the engine of that team, Gasol was a secondary piece. Murray has that type of potential, he is still young at 20yo so stop knocking other players down on the team because they aren't your man-crush, at least evaluate them for who the are.

Jokic shouldn't be the point guard on this team, secondary creator for this team is the role that he can manage, again you keep repeating that his assists are down , but the offensive system has change this season, there is no much of cutting and pick and roll action this season. Even with that he's still leading team in the assist column which I don't like, PG should lead team in assisting , starting pg should average at least 5 dimes per game. Everyone on this team had games when they didn't contribute enough , but still Jokic is the most consistent player on the roster, leading scorer , rebounder and assistant. I think he's underused on the offensive end, he should average at least 10 shot attempts per game every night , than you would have Jokic averaging at least 20 points per game.

Gasol was the player that made the Lakers championship caliber team. After Shaq left the Lakers , there was a big void ,Lakers flat out sucked couldn't even make the play offs why Memphis at least was participating in the play off basketball. As soon Gasol was traded to the Lakers they became title contenders, he brought so much versatility to that team and was perfect man for the triangle system Pill Jackson was running.

Mickey8 wrote:Jokic shouldn't be the point guard on this team, secondary creator for this team is the role that he can manage, again you keep repeating that his assists are down , but the offensive system has change this season, there is no much of cutting and pick and roll action this season. Even with that he's still leading team in the assist column which I don't like, PG should lead team in assisting , starting pg should average at least 5 dimes per game. Everyone on this team had games when they didn't contribute enough , but still Jokic is the most consistent player on the roster, leading scorer , rebounder and assistant. I think he's underused on the offensive end, he should average at least 10 shot attempts per game every night , than you would have Jokic averaging at least 20 points per game.

Gasol was the player that made the Lakers championship caliber team. After Shaq left the Lakers , there was a big void ,Lakers flat out sucked couldn't even make the play offs why Memphis at least was participating in the play off basketball. As soon Gasol was traded to the Lakers they became title contenders, he brought so much versatility to that team and was perfect man for the triangle system Pill Jackson was running.

Ever heard of "position-less basketball" ? That's where the NBA is headed and where the Nuggets are looking to cultivate. Who cares what you want, the team is far more important than individual stats, which is what you seem to get from basketball. Who cares who leads the team in points, whether the PG has the most assists or if the SF out rebounds the C, what matters is team chemistry, team cohesiveness and TEAM WINS.You are all about Jokic and less about the Nuggets, wondering if you are Jokic's girlfriend or something ??

Yes, I think what makes Jokic the team's best player is his full well-rounded game. But to say Murray is only a shooter is stupid and shows you don't watch the games.

And just curious, speaking of MEM, Jokic is likened more to Marc than Pau, (which I agree with), yet even Marc has never been to a WCF game and the only time Pau went was with Kobe shooting the lights out. Don't try to give me crap that Pau was the driving force behind their Championship, he was a BIG cog, but Kobe was the driving force there. I think Murray has that type of potential as well.

Jokic already can be compared with both Gasol brothers, but already comparing Murray with a 2nd best ever shooting guard Bryant is way too much even for die-hard Nuggets fans. My favorite comparison with Jamal Murray is Suns Devin Booker because watching him this season I see what to expect from Murray next season. Actually, Booker has better numbers year by year, but he playing for garbage team, so I think Murray/Booker is a good comparison, despite Booker was pure SG, not combo guard.

My worst case scenario for Murray is to become next Bradley Beal, but please note that Beal is arguably 2nd best player from TOP5 team from East, and at 24 will maybe going to play the all-star game this season. Talking about Murray ceiling, a very important question is to see first what is his real 3pt% career potential. He shoots 3pt% in October just 19%, in November just 29%, in December amazing 49%!?

To clarify, I'm not saying Murray will become the next Kobe, just believe he will become that go-to scorer for the Nuggets. Not sure who I would liken his game to, but I can see him averaging 23-25ppg by the time he hits his prime. The Nuggets haven't seen that type of scorer in the back court since David Thompson (an no, not comparing him to DT either).

skywalker33 wrote:

Mickey8 wrote:Jokic shouldn't be the point guard on this team, secondary creator for this team is the role that he can manage, again you keep repeating that his assists are down , but the offensive system has change this season, there is no much of cutting and pick and roll action this season. Even with that he's still leading team in the assist column which I don't like, PG should lead team in assisting , starting pg should average at least 5 dimes per game. Everyone on this team had games when they didn't contribute enough , but still Jokic is the most consistent player on the roster, leading scorer , rebounder and assistant. I think he's underused on the offensive end, he should average at least 10 shot attempts per game every night , than you would have Jokic averaging at least 20 points per game.

Gasol was the player that made the Lakers championship caliber team. After Shaq left the Lakers , there was a big void ,Lakers flat out sucked couldn't even make the play offs why Memphis at least was participating in the play off basketball. As soon Gasol was traded to the Lakers they became title contenders, he brought so much versatility to that team and was perfect man for the triangle system Pill Jackson was running.

Ever heard of "position-less basketball" ? That's where the NBA is headed and where the Nuggets are looking to cultivate. Who cares what you want, the team is far more important than individual stats, which is what you seem to get from basketball. Who cares who leads the team in points, whether the PG has the most assists or if the SF out rebounds the C, what matters is team chemistry, team cohesiveness and TEAM WINS.You are all about Jokic and less about the Nuggets, wondering if you are Jokic's girlfriend or something ??

Yes, I think what makes Jokic the team's best player is his full well-rounded game. But to say Murray is only a shooter is stupid and shows you don't watch the games.

And just curious, speaking of MEM, Jokic is likened more to Marc than Pau, (which I agree with), yet even Marc has never been to a WCF game and the only time Pau went was with Kobe shooting the lights out. Don't try to give me crap that Pau was the driving force behind their Championship, he was a BIG cog, but Kobe was the driving force there. I think Murray has that type of potential as well.

I only see you degrading Jokic around here, how he doesn't have the stats from the last year, his assists are down etc. Even though everyone knows by now that the offense from the last season is gone. Jokic could have better number if he's involved more on the offensive end like the last season , we seen him having monster performances this year when he get enough touches, his assists would go up if his teammates would cut and move more.

Sorry I don't see Murray being in the Kobe mold, not versatile enough also not that good in the clutch situations.

Jokic is actually linked too both Gasol brothers skill wise , I like Pau comparison more because Jokic can score in various ways as Pau does. Once again Kobe before Pau arrived via trade couldn't even propel his team to play offs , he was stuffing stats that's was about it.

When someone is called "inconsistent" or "no show", while averaging a double-double (and being unselfish to the bone), that's already telling enough.