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Jokic's production

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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#141 » by THE J0KER » Tue Sep 4, 2018 5:52 pm

Westbrook is great, he deserves MVP two seasons ago, but his efficiency can't be compared with Jokic. Russ TS% is just 52%, Jokic over 60%. Westbrook rebounds numbers are fake (10 instead of 6-7), and 10 assists per game he has are damaged with 5 turnovers per game.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#142 » by NuggetsWY » Tue Sep 4, 2018 7:16 pm

Statistics are statistics - Westbrook gets lots of stats basically because he is a non-stop motor. He gets hate because of his attitude and his stats, but he deserves respect because he has achieved his stats with Durrant as well as without Durrant - including with George & Anthony. He adjusts his game to those around him but he is always non-stop motor.

It would be interesting to see how he adjusted his game if he had another distributor playing next to him - someone like LeBron or Jokic or Antetokounmpo or Simmons or ... or ... I have no doubt he could score much more if he wasn't also responsible for getting everyone else involved.

As for his rebounds, that's a perfect example of what I call "motor". He gets many boards when everyone else stands around and watches the ball bounce. Some call them cheap, but they are there for everyone.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#143 » by U hova » Wed Sep 5, 2018 6:00 pm

The primary reason Westbrook's rebounds get called "fake" is because those rebounds are designed by the team to be funneled into Westbrook. His teammates box out for him, he gets the ball, he starts the fastbreak. I don't necessarily blame him for the design, since you do want the guy that can do the most damage to have the ball, but I also think a large part of his recognition comes from that double digit rebounding average (If he had the same impact but only averaged 28 - 8 - 8 he may not win the 2017 MVP over Harden for example)

And the main parallel I wanted to illustrate is that both of these guys are the primary engine one offense - Westbrook for the Thunder, Jokic for the Nuggets, and yet the Nuggets offense over the season was much better than the Thunder even after factoring in Malone basically sabotaging the team by diminishing Jokic's role for half the season.

And at the end of the day, who's the better scorer aside, isn't the result what matters when you give the ball to someone? Giving Jokic the ball made our offense better than giving Westbrook the ball even if Westbrook's ball-handling or scoring was better. I just take issue with seeing people put Westbrook over Jokic when I see the two as having a similar role but with our guy being much better at it.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#144 » by NuggetsWY » Wed Sep 5, 2018 7:20 pm

U hova wrote:The primary reason Westbrook's rebounds get called "fake" is because those rebounds are designed by the team to be funneled into Westbrook. His teammates box out for him, he gets the ball, he starts the fastbreak. I don't necessarily blame him for the design, since you do want the guy that can do the most damage to have the ball, but I also think a large part of his recognition comes from that double digit rebounding average (If he had the same impact but only averaged 28 - 8 - 8 he may not win the 2017 MVP over Harden for example)

And the main parallel I wanted to illustrate is that both of these guys are the primary engine one offense - Westbrook for the Thunder, Jokic for the Nuggets, and yet the Nuggets offense over the season was much better than the Thunder even after factoring in Malone basically sabotaging the team by diminishing Jokic's role for half the season.

And at the end of the day, who's the better scorer aside, isn't the result what matters when you give the ball to someone? Giving Jokic the ball made our offense better than giving Westbrook the ball even if Westbrook's ball-handling or scoring was better. I just take issue with seeing people put Westbrook over Jokic when I see the two as having a similar role but with our guy being much better at it.

Most fans object to someone else's star being ranked ahead of theirs. :wink: Truthfully though, Westbrook probably deserves a higher ranking - for now. But I'd still rather have Jokic. I just wish Malone had the ball in his hands more and that Jokic demanded that. He defers too much IMO. If he shoots more, his assists will come easier. If he gets more assists, his shots will be easier. So the more he has the ball, the better he becomes and the better the Nuggets become.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#145 » by skywalker33 » Thu Sep 6, 2018 4:20 am

NuggetsWY wrote:
U hova wrote:The primary reason Westbrook's rebounds get called "fake" is because those rebounds are designed by the team to be funneled into Westbrook. His teammates box out for him, he gets the ball, he starts the fastbreak. I don't necessarily blame him for the design, since you do want the guy that can do the most damage to have the ball, but I also think a large part of his recognition comes from that double digit rebounding average (If he had the same impact but only averaged 28 - 8 - 8 he may not win the 2017 MVP over Harden for example)

And the main parallel I wanted to illustrate is that both of these guys are the primary engine one offense - Westbrook for the Thunder, Jokic for the Nuggets, and yet the Nuggets offense over the season was much better than the Thunder even after factoring in Malone basically sabotaging the team by diminishing Jokic's role for half the season.

And at the end of the day, who's the better scorer aside, isn't the result what matters when you give the ball to someone? Giving Jokic the ball made our offense better than giving Westbrook the ball even if Westbrook's ball-handling or scoring was better. I just take issue with seeing people put Westbrook over Jokic when I see the two as having a similar role but with our guy being much better at it.

Most fans object to someone else's star being ranked ahead of theirs. :wink: Truthfully though, Westbrook probably deserves a higher ranking - for now. But I'd still rather have Jokic. I just wish Malone had the ball in his hands more and that Jokic demanded that. He defers too much IMO. If he shoots more, his assists will come easier. If he gets more assists, his shots will be easier. So the more he has the ball, the better he becomes and the better the Nuggets become.


It seems you, along with many other posters here want to see Jokic ascend to the "superstar" status...and that's fine, I want him to excel as well. But to me, Jokic looks like he wants to be on a "superstar team", one that wins beyond stats. He's more about wins for the team, he plays within the game not looking for his stats

Personally that's why I love this guys, he thinks team first, what's good for the team...then about what his stats say about him. I truly hope that Malone has learned the value of the Joker offense, really think his job depends on it (but that's another issue).
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#146 » by NuggetsWY » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:16 pm

An article truly worth reading:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/10/17/17986820/nikola-jokic-denver-nuggets-feature

Lots of good quotes and here's my favorite:

"The people in Denver aren’t the only ones high on Jokic. ESPN’s RPM formula projects him as the most impactful player in the league this season."
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#147 » by skywalker33 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:00 pm

Listening to the newest Locked On Nuggets podcast, it was noted how Jokic is becoming more than the Point Center, he looks more and more like Peyton Manning did on the football field. He's not just making passes, he's directing the offense, demanding the ball and he makes it look easy. He (and the rest of the team) have bought into the defensive scheme and is becoming one of the most dominant players in the NBA right now. Fans at the PHX game were chanting "M-V-P" and I can easily see him getting into that conversation if he continues this type of development.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#148 » by THE J0KER » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 am

Before the start of the season, I wanted to see early Nikola Jokic triple-double as the proof that we finally starting some season with our trademark offense, not waiting Christmas or even February ASG for that once again. And Nikola achieved TD this time already in the 2nd season's game, and which is an even better sign, Nikola Jokic is officially named NBA player of the (opening) week!

Nikola Jokic, Kemba Walker Named NBA Players Of The Week
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#149 » by iggymcfrack » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:45 pm

You guys mind if I jump on the bandwagon? I haven’t had a real favorite team in about 5 years. I definitely rooted for Denver more than anyone last regular season just because I love Jokic so much. This season I thought I’d try to get back into Dallas because of Doncic, but they’re just not that fun to watch. It’s like the difference between watching a Bellator opener and a UFC main event. I don’t really care how many games the Mavs win. But I’d cum in my pants if the Nuggets get a Top 2 seed and Jokic wins the MVP. So I just switched allegiances on my profile. Let’s go Nuggets!!!
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#150 » by NuggetsWY » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:13 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:You guys mind if I jump on the bandwagon? I haven’t had a real favorite team in about 5 years. I definitely rooted for Denver more than anyone last regular season just because I love Jokic so much. This season I thought I’d try to get back into Dallas because of Doncic, but they’re just not that fun to watch. It’s like the difference between watching a Bellator opener and a UFC main event. I don’t really care how many games the Mavs win. But I’d cum in my pants if the Nuggets get a Top 2 seed and Jokic wins the MVP. So I just switched allegiances on my profile. Let’s go Nuggets!!!

Welcome - we totally understand and we don't mind bandwagon jumpers (until they jump off :lol: ).
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#151 » by jasonT17 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:23 am

b-bal reference's MVP tracker https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html
Jokic is going 2nd, behind 33ppg Curry
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#152 » by NuggetsWY » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:14 pm

jasonT17 wrote:b-bal reference's MVP tracker https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html
Jokic is going 2nd, behind 33ppg Curry

It just seems like he should be MVP but it's never been about Most-Valuable. It's about "popularity" and "show". My money is on Durrant to win this year.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#153 » by U hova » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:04 pm

I think being on the Warriors will disqualify all their players minus the possibility that they do something insane like a 75 win season.
If we do finish with a top 3 record in the West (keep your fingers crossed) Jokic would definitely be in the voters minds I'd think.

There are a couple other guys like Anthony Davis, Giannis, Kawhi, who I could see as favorites as well, but it's only been 6 games.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#154 » by Mickey8 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:12 pm

He has to be more selfish on the offensive end, he can score with an ease against anybody , but there are games when he doesn't take a shot for 4,5 minutes stretch , he should take the most attempts per game , he's the most efficient offensive player on the team by far.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#155 » by THE J0KER » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:55 pm

No way Jokic will ever be chosen as NBA MVP, even if computer calculations and experts "chose" him. He has no enough star-power, and don't want to work on his own raw stats when he is in a position to do it.

Sadly that Cousins left Pelicans, so Anthony Davis is moved to center spot once again, otherwise, Jokic would have nice chances to be part of all-NBA first team as starting center and all-star starter on the West. Injury-free Davis is now favorite for that, and Jokic biggest opponent for all-NBA 2nd team is Embiid, followed by Gobert.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#156 » by NuggetsWY » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:06 pm

Mickey8 wrote:He has to be more selfish on the offensive end, he can score with an ease against anybody , but there are games when he doesn't take a shot for 4,5 minutes stretch , he should take the most attempts per game , he's the most efficient offensive player on the team by far.

Jokic just won't take more shots. He thinks not shooting is team play. The truth is, if he starts shooting, teams will double him faster and more often - that will help the team more than anything he's doing now. He's strong enough to deal with any double-team and still make his passes. He just doesn't see it that way and evidently the coaches either don't see it that way or can't get him to see it.

More significant in my opinion is "usage". Jokic is 23.6% which is 55th among starters. It'd be nice if he had the ball around 30-35%. That is what the top-10 have.

35 Antetokounmpo
34 Kemba Walker
33 LaVine
33 Booker
32 Harden
32 Westbrook
32 Julius Randle
31 Josh Jackson
30 Oladipo
30 Lillard

Not saying Jokic has to have the ball more than all of those but notice a few of the names; including two Suns.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#157 » by Mickey8 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:34 am

Please stop it, look how he played the last two months of the last season. Thats the Jokic Denver needs if they want to make the noise this season, not Jokic who is adjusting to Millsap's outdated game or to Murry's wild selfish solo act.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#158 » by skywalker33 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:08 am

Mickey8 wrote:Please stop it, look how he played the last two months of the last season. Thats the Jokic Denver needs if they want to make the noise this season, not Jokic who is adjusting to Millsap's outdated game or to Murry's wild selfish solo act.


Dude, this is the Denver Nuggets TEAM, not the Denver Jokic SOLO. Jokic has been coached to be a team player, just because YOU want him to dominate this team, other teams, the entire league...really doensn't matter, Grow Up...this IS a team sport !!
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#159 » by The Rebel » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:32 am

The problem is not Murray or Millsap, we need a shooter at the 3 to spread the floor and Jokic will put up his numbers and we will be fine. In fact that is a lot of the problem that Murray and Harris are having as well.
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Re: Jokic's production 

Post#160 » by THE J0KER » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:12 am

The Rebel wrote:The problem is not Murray or Millsap, we need a shooter at the 3 to spread the floor and Jokic will put up his numbers and we will be fine. In fact that is a lot of the problem that Murray and Harris are having as well.

We probably already have such player - his name is Michael Porter Jr! But we don't need to rush things this season. If we want to prepare the team for MPJ era already this season, Juancho should play more like a most similar type of player, especially now when Barton is injured.

We are good enough to beat about 4/5 opponents at home and 2/5 on the road, which means about 50 wins (enough for TOP4 seed on the West). More Jokic is used, better result team will have in every way. Jokic with 7+ assists is the best thing for Denver because Jokic is Nuggets best playmaker and should run our offense. If Jokic more scoring, it is also great for the team, his TS% is just great. And he can (and should) more to assist and more to score both at the same time, which means also higher usage rate (WY is correct about that) and also more playing time (from 30mpg to 33mpg). Jokic was #55 last season in FG attempts, and right now he is #70 in the league. But last two months of last season Jokic was #35 in FGA but at the same time, he averages in that period career-high average in assists. That should be his basic game.

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