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Arturas Karnisovas

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Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#1 » by NuggetsWY » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:10 am

How much credit for the restructured roster do you think goes to Karnisovas? No doubt Connelly & Kroenke have kept involved but it feels like they made a serious effort to re-balance the roster - and they certainly haven't worried about that for a couple of years.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#2 » by skywalker33 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:23 am

Interestingly enough, this does feel like a balanced Team FO effort to me.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#3 » by Zaccaibone » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:18 pm

I think they taking this off season serious.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#4 » by THE J0KER » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:36 am

I see Arturas Karnisovas and Tim Connely as a team. One of the best qualities of management is the ability to learn from own mistakes. Seems that our FO possesses such quality.

They accumulated an impressive number of young talents in a very short time. But at some point, it seems that they are going to ruin their own legacy very fast. It started with a poor managed Nurkic deal, then we have very bad 2017 draft-day deal, Plumlee contract format was another wrong move, they not handle extremely unbalanced roster problem in 2017-18 with 5 backups PF's, unlike Jazz or Pelicans our FO not add some last moment roster improvement before trade deadline for better odds in so tied playoff race, and I think they should replace coach Malone when guys like Budenholzer, Casey, Fizdale, Kokoskov, are still available.

But now seems they are once again on the right track! Compared to 2017-18 Jokic salary grow from under 2M to over 25M, Harris salary from under 3M to over 15M, Barton 3.5M salary is more than tripled, and there is no single 5M+ contract which expired last season. Despite all these facts they still managed to stay under the luxury tax with even better, more talented, more competitive, and much more balanced roster! Compared to last season roster, we replaced Faried and Arthur which we can't use anyway, and Chandler which is probably the biggest 2017-18 disappointment, with a former all-star veteran Thomas and super-talented rookie Porter. And all changes are done already in the first half of the July, so the whole team should be focused on nothing else than next season since very first day. The price which they pay to save over 50M in unwanted contracts and luxury tax, and make the roster more balanced and competitive, is very reasonable: one (late) 1st round pick, and two 2nd. If we compare how cheap we waste some assets in the near past (Nurkic, Mudiay, two 2017 1st rounders), this is a huge improvement which sends the new picture of Arturas Karnisovas and Tim Connoly as guys which know what they want and how to get it.

Another reason why we should be patient with our FO if they show the ability to learn from own mistakes is the fact that Karnisovas is one of 10 youngest NBA GM's, Connoly is even 5 years younger, and owner Josh Kroenke which also participate in the important franchise decisions is even younger. I know that the coach Mike Malone also can be called relatively young, but he is still on the ice for me until he also not proves that he can learn from own mistakes instead of repeating them.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#5 » by The Rebel » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:08 am

THE J0KER wrote:I see Arturas Karnisovas and Tim Connely as a team. One of the best qualities of management is the ability to learn from own mistakes. Seems that our FO possesses such quality.

They accumulated an impressive number of young talents in a very short time. But at some point, it seems that they are going to ruin their own legacy very fast. It started with a poor managed Nurkic deal, then we have very bad 2017 draft-day deal, Plumlee contract format was another wrong move, they not handle extremely unbalanced roster problem in 2017-18 with 5 backups PF's, unlike Jazz or Pelicans our FO not add some last moment roster improvement before trade deadline for better odds in so tied playoff race, and I think they should replace coach Malone when guys like Budenholzer, Casey, Fizdale, Kokoskov, are still available.

But now seems they are once again on the right track! Compared to 2017-18 Jokic salary grow from under 2M to over 25M, Harris salary from under 3M to over 15M, Barton 3.5M salary is more than tripled, and there is no single 5M+ contract which expired last season. Despite all these facts they still managed to stay under the luxury tax with even better, more talented, more competitive, and much more balanced roster! Compared to last season roster, we replaced Faried and Arthur which we can't use anyway, and Chandler which is probably the biggest 2017-18 disappointment, with a former all-star veteran Thomas and super-talented rookie Porter. And all changes are done already in the first half of the July, so the whole team should be focused on nothing else than next season since very first day. The price which they pay to save over 50M in unwanted contracts and luxury tax, and make the roster more balanced and competitive, is very reasonable: one (late) 1st round pick, and two 2nd. If we compare how cheap we waste some assets in the near past (Nurkic, Mudiay, two 2017 1st rounders), this is a huge improvement which sends the new picture of Arturas Karnisovas and Tim Connoly as guys which know what they want and how to get it.

Another reason why we should be patient with our FO if they show the ability to learn from own mistakes is the fact that Karnisovas is one of 10 youngest NBA GM's, Connoly is even 5 years younger, and owner Josh Kroenke which also participate in the important franchise decisions is even younger. I know that the coach Mike Malone also can be called relatively young, but he is still on the ice for me until he also not proves that he can learn from own mistakes instead of repeating them.


I'm sorry, but what? I don't see this offseason as any indication that our front office has learned from their mistakes. The more I think about this offseason the more I get pissed off.

I accepted the salary dump, because we all know that it is best for the long term, but I am not ready to praise the front office for crap.

If anything the front office has not learned a damn thing.

I have been clear that I thought they would give Barton a bigger contract, but I really do not like the contract. I put that in the exact same boat as I do the Plumlee deal, signing guys to bigger deals than their roles call for, all because they like the guy. Chandler, Faried, and Arthur were all the same type of contracts, big deals for guys without star potential but solid role players. A couple of years ago they were saying they were not going to overpay for role players, but that is exactly what they have done.

I have accepted that they will give Barton the starting SF role, but that cannot be the long term plan. Can it? Are they that dumb? The guy is a no defense SG that is now overpaid to be a bench scorer, but is not good enough to be our starting SG. So that means that we have nearly $27 million going to 2 guys who project to be on our bench a year from now. Neither one are really overpaid per se, but both are overpaid for their long term roles on this team.

We now can obtain $21 million in cap space next summer, if we opt out of Millsap's deal. That is not enough to sign a star, and with Lyles' cap hold that is not enough to even sign a high impact guy for basically the remaining $12.5 million. So either we keep Millsap a year from now, or we lose another starting player with no feasible way to replace him. So a year from now we are still handcuffed and cannot bring in any type of upgrade without giving up more assets to dump guys who other teams will know we have to dump.

in 2016 there were rumors that they wanted to trade a couple of picks because we did not have room on the roster, in 2017 they traded down because they did not believe that they had room to develop a pick. They went into the 2018 draft not wanting to pick players that can play for us next year, and proceeded to draft 2 guys who they hope cannot play this year. Maybe I am crazy, but it sure as **** seems like we had a undrafted free agent rookie playing backup SF, we had the guy we traded down to get playing minutes at PF, but we did not have room for a late lotto draft pick?

Hey we also got another bargain basement PG, but this time instead of one with little skill left we got one with a bad attitude and injury problem that due to size is likely to fall off a cliff within the next year or two. In a league where the Hawks got Jeremy Lin for cap space, we paid to clear cap space and wind up with a guy who has never been offered a contract from the team that he was with before becoming a free agent, and who has been dumped or not offered a contract by 4 of the 5 teams he has ever played for.

This team is constantly making short term moves to chase the playoffs, chasing after big name free agents, and then settling for missing the playoffs and re-signing our own guys to too much money for their role. Plumlee makes more than Nurkic for god's sake.

That is not even getting into coaching. Our coach spends half of the season screwing around with the offensive systems, and continues to use an outdated defense, then when we miss the playoffs there are excuses after excuses. I am sorry but there was 2 real reasons we missed the playoffs last year, screwing around with crappy offenses for half the year, and not showing up for games against bad teams because we didn't want to put in effort. Hell our run finally came after Malone grew the balls to bench the starters after half time of that Dallas game, why did it take so long? Does anybody think that next year is going to be different? After 3 years of the exact same routine, same coaching issues, same starting with 12 man rotations and an ever changing offensive system, why would anybody believe that he will change this year? Front office laughed though when anybody brought up the idea of firing Malone after the season, both TC and AK. So they didn't **** learn there either.

Make no mistake the Faried Arthur deal were not to clear out roster clutter, it was a money saving move. Prior to the draft there were rumors that they were considering adding Plumlee to the guys they were trying to salary dump. Considering? WTF, there is nothing to consider, he should have been 1st on the list. Other teams want him, great, let's get rid of the guy. All kinds of suitable backup Centers signed for less than the MLE this year, yet we kept Plumlee so we can do this all over again next year.

What is the plan with Beasley? Juancho? Lydon? Lyles? Morris? What is the goal with any of them? What minutes are their available for them to compete for? You resigned Barton, have indicated that you think that Craig can be a defensive backup SG as well as SF, drafted 2 more forwards, and signed a backup PG. From what I can decipher Morris is SOL and will be on the 2 way contract again despite doing everything they asked last year and summer league, I bet he is thrilled. Beasley is likely 4th on the depth chart at SG, Juancho gets to compete for 15-20 MPG at backup SF, Lyles and Lydon get to compete for 10 MPG at backup Pf because we know Plumlee will get minutes there as well.

I read about the Faried and Arthur trade, and how analysts and local guys are grading the Nuggets well, especially since they kept all the young prospects, and all I could do is laugh. Beasley is regressing on offense, and while he may be better on defense, they will not play him because his offense sucks. Juancho and Lyles are great talents, but nobody outside of Nuggets fans know it, because they don't play. Lydon and Morris look pretty good, but they have no hope of seeing any meaningful minutes with this team. Porter JR and Vanderbilt, the front office is crossing their fingers that they are not ready in 3 months. A year from now most of these young guys will have no trade value left, nobody will give up crap for a 4th year player that doesn't play. Who wants a backup combo forward that has never seen the court despite being in the league 2 years? If other teams hold guys like Beasley and Lydon in high regard, if their value is half of what the front office seems to act like, than why are we trading a future 1st round pick, when they are on the bench with little to no hope of ever seeing the court for this team? Why not save the pick and move one of them, any Dleague signing can sit on the end of the bench.

Sorry for the rant, but I don't understand praising this front office for this offseason. We did nothing to clear the glut of young players that cannot get minutes and signed guys to keep them buried, we overpaid another one of our own players, we brought in a placeholder with limited value at backup PG, we kept the same coach, we drafted a couple of guys with no intention of playing them any time soon, what is different this year than last or the year before? Or even the year before that? Sorry but I am tired of this whole push to make the playoffs every year with all our young players, while doing nothing to develop the young players and continuing to keep this team hamstrung with contracts that overpay for the roles these guys fill. Right now I am torn between hoping we make the playoffs as a top seed as we should and wanting to miss one more time so that they all get fired.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#6 » by NuggetsWY » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:22 am

If Karnisovas made a difference, we can not blame him for previous mistakes. Plus, do not forget, he is just the GM and Connelly and Kroenke made it clear they were Barton fans. Perhaps Karnisovas finally convinced them to move Chandler, Arthur, Faried - which should have been done 2 or 3 or even 4 years ago. I don't mind the salary dumps. Paying the tax for a non-contending team is smart. They could finish very high but the Nuggets seem likely to have homecourt advantage in round 1 as their highest target (with a first round win).

I have made it clear that I am in favor of playing our young players more. I do not object to adding Thomas. I have not objected to adding Miller and Jefferson - and most of the other veterans. My objection continues to be Malone's preference to overuse veterans at the cost of developing young players. My objection has been and will continue to be Malone's rotations and his unwillingness to use a Jokic-centric offense and his pathetic approach to defense.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#7 » by THE J0KER » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:47 am

@Rebel

While I agree with you about Barton contract and all concerns about coach Malone stays, I can't agree with the rest of your post. Our FO does their job and homework well this time, and they do everything in time for the change. This summer they did not repeat the same mistakes from the past (apart from Barton contract).

Remember 2016-17 season when since the early start it is obvious that two talented young centers Jokic and Nurkic can't work well together on the floor with the obvious choice who is the better of two. But it is ignored for months until the Nurkic asset value degenerate from a talented lottery pick to the negative asset, and at the end, we must add 2017 1st rounder to Nurkic to get expiring Plumlee from Portland, and which is worst, that Portland February improvement (Nurkic instead Plumlee) was crucial in 2017 playoff race (Blazers overtake Nuggets in last week of the regular season with one win better record).

Remember last summer at this same time (middle of July). We get on draft day PF Lyles and PF Lydon and week or two later we sign new PF starter Millsap, so we know already that PF Faried and PF Arthur will not be used anymore, and last summer Faried is still not a negative asset like this summer, and we have much more assets for trades (Mudiay especially, and the values of Juancho and Beasley was much higher than this summer). But this problem stays unsolved last season, despite the team was constantly in a state of emergency all the time that some trade will come which is a bad thing for a locker room (especially unhappy was Faried and Mudiay, and part of trade talks and rumors was often Chandler and even Beasley), plus backup PG problem was not solved at all, so Barton is forced to play many minutes on PG spot where he is way less efficient than in SF and SG role.

But this summer problem with "useless" Chandler+Faried+Arthur is even bigger because together with their 30M+ contract salaries Nuggets would pay 50M+ luxury if they stay, and we have fewer assets to solve that than before. But FO solved it and did it in time, for the very reasonable price! And they find a final backup-guard solution for the next season which will indirectly solve our 2018-19 SF problem too, by Barton not playing backcourts duties anymore but only SF. And discussing are Thomas is the right new 6th man is pointless considering he is going to be paid on veteran minimum. The only similar cases this offseason where well-known NBA player (not too old) agree to be drastically underpaid one season to be in a better position to sign a better deal next summer is Cousins and Brook Lopez, so together with GSW and Bucks FO, we must to congrats and give some credit our FO which used such opportunity. Same about Michael Porter Jr draft pick. That is a great gamble move even if we lose that bet at the end if we know how big is the potential high ceiling of that player. Yes, they are lucky because such prospect stays so late in the draft, but the fact is that our FO at the end did what so many other teams FO which has higher 2018 draft pick choice missed, so credit to them again.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#8 » by cruwinas » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:50 am

Was a very good ball player. Still remember his debut in the main competition, playing with grown-up dudes, while he was skinny teenager. On one of the first plays after he was subbed in, he ran the floor, got a nice pass on the wing, released a very nice shot and missed everything - air-ball. But I liked his release. One of the best LT players of his generation. Smart, contained, always thought before saying.
Last thing about his playing days. Will forever remember: Karnišovas was fouled hard under the basket. I mean, he was thrown down to the floor. Those days - just a flagrant foul. Now what it would be I don't know what. Criminal investigation for attempted murder (j/k)? It was intentional, dirty, nasty, completely unsportsmanlike. At first, everybody was afraid for his life. Later - will he be able to play (I mean later, in life. Today was question - will he live?)? With the white face (still from the pain), Artūras calmly drained two free throws. No retaliation later , no dirty stuff. Just went on to win the game.
So, a little inside into the persons build-up. Reserved, respectful, thinks first before saying, but will do everything to make his team better. Ultimate team player, not just in basketball sense of meaning.
Denver was always able to build a good, funny teams that played attractive ball. I'm very happy, that Karnišovas is doing his job well. He has an insight from both worlds - Euro and North Atlantic, and it's a very good knoweledge to have.
All the best to him in Denver, and maybe Nuggets, the 8th seed, will be able to beat GSW, the 1st seed (it happened before ;)).
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#9 » by Richard Miller » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:12 pm

The Rebel wrote:Hey we also got another bargain basement PG, but this time instead of one with little skill left we got one with a bad attitude and injury problem that due to size is likely to fall off a cliff within the next year or two. In a league where the Hawks got Jeremy Lin for cap space, we paid to clear cap space and wind up with a guy who has never been offered a contract from the team that he was with before becoming a free agent, and who has been dumped or not offered a contract by 4 of the 5 teams he has ever played for.


A guy who was 2× NBA All-Star in the last 3 yrs doesn't have 'little skill left', not worth a minimum contract, come on, you cannot be serious as JMac would say.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#10 » by NuggetsWY » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:06 pm

cruwinas wrote:Was a very good ball player. Still remember his debut in the main competition, playing with grown-up dudes, while he was skinny teenager. On one of the first plays after he was subbed in, he ran the floor, got a nice pass on the wing, released a very nice shot and missed everything - air-ball. But I liked his release. One of the best LT players of his generation. Smart, contained, always thought before saying.
Last thing about his playing days. Will forever remember: Karnišovas was fouled hard under the basket. I mean, he was thrown down to the floor. Those days - just a flagrant foul. Now what it would be I don't know what. Criminal investigation for attempted murder (j/k)? It was intentional, dirty, nasty, completely unsportsmanlike. At first, everybody was afraid for his life. Later - will he be able to play (I mean later, in life. Today was question - will he live?)? With the white face (still from the pain), Artūras calmly drained two free throws. No retaliation later , no dirty stuff. Just went on to win the game.
So, a little inside into the persons build-up. Reserved, respectful, thinks first before saying, but will do everything to make his team better. Ultimate team player, not just in basketball sense of meaning.
Denver was always able to build a good, funny teams that played attractive ball. I'm very happy, that Karnišovas is doing his job well. He has an insight from both worlds - Euro and North Atlantic, and it's a very good knoweledge to have.
All the best to him on Denver, and maybe Nuggets, the 8th seed, will be able to beat GSW, the 1st seed (it happened before ;)).

GREAT post - I love it - thanks for sharing
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#11 » by cruwinas » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:22 pm

NuggetsWY wrote:
cruwinas wrote:Was a very good ball player. Still remember his debut in the main competition, playing with grown-up dudes, while he was skinny teenager. On one of the first plays after he was subbed in, he ran the floor, got a nice pass on the wing, released a very nice shot and missed everything - air-ball. But I liked his release. One of the best LT players of his generation. Smart, contained, always thought before saying.
Last thing about his playing days. Will forever remember: Karnišovas was fouled hard under the basket. I mean, he was thrown down to the floor. Those days - just a flagrant foul. Now what it would be I don't know what. Criminal investigation for attempted murder (j/k)? It was intentional, dirty, nasty, completely unsportsmanlike. At first, everybody was afraid for his life. Later - will he be able to play (I mean later, in life. Today was question - will he live?)? With the white face (still from the pain), Artūras calmly drained two free throws. No retaliation later , no dirty stuff. Just went on to win the game.
So, a little inside into the persons build-up. Reserved, respectful, thinks first before saying, but will do everything to make his team better. Ultimate team player, not just in basketball sense of meaning.
Denver was always able to build a good, funny teams that played attractive ball. I'm very happy, that Karnišovas is doing his job well. He has an insight from both worlds - Euro and North Atlantic, and it's a very good knoweledge to have.
All the best to him in Denver, and maybe Nuggets, the 8th seed, will be able to beat GSW, the 1st seed (it happened before ;)).

GREAT post - I love it - thanks for sharing


No problem :) Long time sports fan, long time basketball fan, Lithuanian myself. Spent ~15 years sweating, bleeding, grinding teeth from pain - world of sport is common to me. And since I, no longer a teenager, have plenty of memories, plenty of guys, who are associated one way or another with that thing.
In the West I like SAS, POR, DEN, PHO, SAC for a different reasons. Maybe not the current teams, if they suck I just wish they were better, but just overall, due to the things that accumulated through the time.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#12 » by NuggetsWY » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:32 pm

cruwinas wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:
cruwinas wrote:Was a very good ball player. Still remember his debut in the main competition, playing with grown-up dudes, while he was skinny teenager. On one of the first plays after he was subbed in, he ran the floor, got a nice pass on the wing, released a very nice shot and missed everything - air-ball. But I liked his release. One of the best LT players of his generation. Smart, contained, always thought before saying.
Last thing about his playing days. Will forever remember: Karnišovas was fouled hard under the basket. I mean, he was thrown down to the floor. Those days - just a flagrant foul. Now what it would be I don't know what. Criminal investigation for attempted murder (j/k)? It was intentional, dirty, nasty, completely unsportsmanlike. At first, everybody was afraid for his life. Later - will he be able to play (I mean later, in life. Today was question - will he live?)? With the white face (still from the pain), Artūras calmly drained two free throws. No retaliation later , no dirty stuff. Just went on to win the game.
So, a little inside into the persons build-up. Reserved, respectful, thinks first before saying, but will do everything to make his team better. Ultimate team player, not just in basketball sense of meaning.
Denver was always able to build a good, funny teams that played attractive ball. I'm very happy, that Karnišovas is doing his job well. He has an insight from both worlds - Euro and North Atlantic, and it's a very good knoweledge to have.
All the best to him on Denver, and maybe Nuggets, the 8th seed, will be able to beat GSW, the 1st seed (it happened before ;)).

GREAT post - I love it - thanks for sharing

No problem :) Long time sports fan, long time basketball fan, Lithuanian myself. Spent ~15 years sweating, bleeding, grinding teeth from pain - world of sport is common to me. and since i', no longer a teenager, have plenty of memories, plenty of guys, who are associated one way or another with that thing.
In the West I like SAS, POR, DEN, PHO, SAC for a different reasons. Maybe not the current teams, if they suck I just wish they were better, but just overall, due to the things that accumulated through the time.

I hear ya. I'm just an old man that spends most of his time wishing his legs weren't so torn up. I was an athlete and fairly good, not great - except for basketball where I couldn't even make my high school team. :lol: But I think basketball players are the most complete athletes in the world (most of them) and I just really admire them.

When the Trailblazers first started, I was stationed in the Pacific and we got every Portland game (at weird times) and back then home games weren't always broadcast. But if it was on TV anywhere, we got Portland. After returning to the States, we actually moved to Portland (family member needed care). So I still love following them.

Years later we ended up in Florida, about 60 miles from Orlando. We were there when they first formed, so I still love to follow them. I have Canadian relatives and since they like the Raptors and we talk about them, I enjoy seeing them whenever they make national TV broadcasts.

Other teams come and go in my fandom - not as a bandwagon jumper but as a team of interest mostly because of players. I'm very interested in what the Kings are doing since getting rid of Cousins. They have a ways to go, but I like their pieces.

Oh yeah, let's not forget the Jazz. Where I live now, I get every single Nuggets' game and about 75 Jazz games per year. So I've gotten to know them and like a great deal about their coach and his approach, along with the players that are so totally committed to his team game.

Enough rambling - have a great day. But I've got somewhere I need to leave for in a couple of minutes.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#13 » by The Rebel » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:32 pm

Richard Miller wrote:
The Rebel wrote:Hey we also got another bargain basement PG, but this time instead of one with little skill left we got one with a bad attitude and injury problem that due to size is likely to fall off a cliff within the next year or two. In a league where the Hawks got Jeremy Lin for cap space, we paid to clear cap space and wind up with a guy who has never been offered a contract from the team that he was with before becoming a free agent, and who has been dumped or not offered a contract by 4 of the 5 teams he has ever played for.


A guy who was 2× NBA All-Star in the last 3 yrs doesn't have 'little skill left', not worth a minimum contract, come on, you cannot be serious as JMac would say.


Maybe you need to reread what I said.
The Rebel wrote:Hey we also got another bargain basement PG, but this time instead of one with little skill left we got one with a bad attitude and injury problem that due to size is likely to fall off a cliff within the next year or two. .
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#14 » by Richard Miller » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:34 pm

The Rebel wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
The Rebel wrote:Hey we also got another bargain basement PG, but this time instead of one with little skill left we got one with a bad attitude and injury problem that due to size is likely to fall off a cliff within the next year or two. In a league where the Hawks got Jeremy Lin for cap space, we paid to clear cap space and wind up with a guy who has never been offered a contract from the team that he was with before becoming a free agent, and who has been dumped or not offered a contract by 4 of the 5 teams he has ever played for.


A guy who was 2× NBA All-Star in the last 3 yrs doesn't have 'little skill left', not worth a minimum contract, come on, you cannot be serious as JMac would say.


Maybe you need to reread what I said.
The Rebel wrote:Hey we also got another bargain basement PG, but this time instead of one with little skill left we got one with a bad attitude and injury problem that due to size is likely to fall off a cliff within the next year or two. .


Already read that, so what?
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#15 » by The Rebel » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:42 pm

NuggetsWY wrote:If Karnisovas made a difference, we can not blame him for previous mistakes. Plus, do not forget, he is just the GM and Connelly and Kroenke made it clear they were Barton fans. Perhaps Karnisovas finally convinced them to move Chandler, Arthur, Faried - which should have been done 2 or 3 or even 4 years ago. I don't mind the salary dumps. Paying the tax for a non-contending team is smart. They could finish very high but the Nuggets seem likely to have homecourt advantage in round 1 as their highest target (with a first round win).


So wait he gets a pass because his title changed? Sorry but Connelly and Karnisovas got different titles and raises last summer so AK would not take the Bucks job, but nothing in the chain of command has changed.

You can choose to give anybody you want credit for the salary dumps, but I do not give any of them credit for those dumps. In fact that is something I hold against all of them. They dumped contracts that they signed to avoid the luxury tax, not for some roster balancing crap like you and the Nuggets are trying to spin it. I would have been much happier if instead of dumping salary they got creative and dumped salary while picking up players we need to fill gaps. I would much rather have walked away this summer with George Hill than Isaiah thomas, but it would have cost some young players that don't play. I would have rather given up a pick to flip Plumlee for a guy like Koufos instead of paying to dump Arthur and Faried for cap space. Insted of signing Barton to a big deal, I would have rather signed a placeholder and used his cap space to get a guy who is a long term 6th man. We might not get all the way out of the luxury tax but it would have cleared the cap for next summer and given us real room to build the team around the young core.
NuggetsWY wrote:I have made it clear that I am in favor of playing our young players more. I do not object to adding Thomas. I have not objected to adding Miller and Jefferson - and most of the other veterans. My objection continues to be Malone's preference to overuse veterans at the cost of developing young players. My objection has been and will continue to be Malone's rotations and his unwillingness to use a Jokic-centric offense and his pathetic approach to defense.


Malone has developed Murray, Jokic, Harris, Lyles and Juancho have shown promise but Juancho was sick and Lyles defense was terrible. They drafted 2 more forwards, while neither are likely to play this year, they added 2 more forwards in the draft. They resigned Craig and started pushing the idea that he can play SG and signed Thomas. What that all tells me is that for one reason or another they do not like Beasley and Lyles at a minimum and possibly Juancho, whether it is lack of talent, work ethic, or attitude I do not know but their moves show their thinking.

Signing Thomas and Craig I would say that relates directly into how they feel about Beasley's long term prognosis with this team. Beasley was supposed to be a 2 way player that can score and be a capable defender. He has shown glimpses as both, yet they bring in a score 1st, 2nd, and 3rd PG and resign a defensive specialist to play at backup SG, while ignoring their chance to sign Morris who they are reportedly very high on. They must not be too high on Beasley right now.

I understand draft Porter JR, he would have been in the running for 1st overall without the injury, you have to take that risk unless you get a godfather offer. I could understand if Vanderbilt had fallen to them and they took him, but instead they moved up using 2 2nd round picks to draft the guy and then signed him to a 3 year deal as soon as they could. So what does that say about Lyles? We now have 2 young PFs well as Juancho on the depth chart behind Lyles, and a young Sf sitting behind Craig and Juancho while promising the starting job to Barton so what does that say about Juancho?

We gave up future picks to dump salary, yet we have at least 2 guys that they do not view as the long term answer for this team in Beasley and Lyles, so why the picks and not the 2 players? Lyles proved he could be very productive last year, reports said that he had much more value than we gave for him, Juancho would be fine backing up both forward spots for the likely 10 mpg at each. They have signed guys to ensure that Beasley is not really used, so why is he still here is he not even worth a 2nd round pick? The only answer that makes sense is that the front office has said screw the future we have to make the playoffs, and are doing it to the detriment to the long term health of this team. So sorry I am not going to praise any of them right now, everything they did was short sighted and has shown that they still have the same issues that they have since Connelly and Arturas were brought in 5 years ago.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#16 » by The Rebel » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:44 pm

Richard Miller wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
A guy who was 2× NBA All-Star in the last 3 yrs doesn't have 'little skill left', not worth a minimum contract, come on, you cannot be serious as JMac would say.


Maybe you need to reread what I said.
The Rebel wrote:Hey we also got another bargain basement PG, but this time instead of one with little skill left we got one with a bad attitude and injury problem that due to size is likely to fall off a cliff within the next year or two. .


Already read that, so what?


I literally said that they brought in Thomas instead of a guy with little skill left, so maybe you should read it again.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#17 » by The Rebel » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:23 pm

THE J0KER wrote:@Rebel

While I agree with you about Barton contract and all concerns about coach Malone stays, I can't agree with the rest of your post. Our FO does their job and homework well this time, and they do everything in time for the change. This summer they did not repeat the same mistakes from the past (apart from Barton contract).


I's sorry but I see them making the exact same mistakes this year that they have in years past.
THE J0KER wrote:Remember 2016-17 season when since the early start it is obvious that two talented young centers Jokic and Nurkic can't work well together on the floor with the obvious choice who is the better of two. But it is ignored for months until the Nurkic asset value degenerate from a talented lottery pick to the negative asset, and at the end, we must add 2017 1st rounder to Nurkic to get expiring Plumlee from Portland, and which is worst, that Portland February improvement (Nurkic instead Plumlee) was crucial in 2017 playoff race (Blazers overtake Nuggets in last week of the regular season with one win better record).


This year instead of Nurkic, we have Beasley, Juancho, Morris, and Lydon that are buried on the bench by their moves. Every day that those guys are not used they lose value, and while we may not have to give up a draft pick to move one right now, we will get back than what their production should be worth if they were allowed to play.
THE J0KER wrote:Remember last summer at this same time (middle of July). We get on draft day PF Lyles and PF Lydon and week or two later we sign new PF starter Millsap, so we know already that PF Faried and PF Arthur will not be used anymore, and last summer Faried is still not a negative asset like this summer, and we have much more assets for trades (Mudiay especially, and the values of Juancho and Beasley was much higher than this summer). But this problem stays unsolved last season, despite the team was constantly in a state of emergency all the time that some trade will come which is a bad thing for a locker room (especially unhappy was Faried and Mudiay, and part of trade talks and rumors was often Chandler and even Beasley), plus backup PG problem was not solved at all, so Barton is forced to play many minutes on PG spot where he is way less efficient than in SF and SG role.


How are you guys not seeing that they are doing the same thing. They drafted 2 forwards, they brought back Craig, they signed a backup PG, so the young guys on the bench are not going to get minutes, but instead of trading them while they reportedly still have value we give up future contracts. What happens when Porter outplays Barton and he is forced to the bench? Are you happy with Plumlee being the 3rd big long term while we have 3 young forwards on the bench who cannot get time?

Either the future is the young guys and you play develop them, or they do not fit with the team, and you trade them, instead we gave up picks to keep guys that are not part of the future, and signed another long term deal for a guy who will likely lose his starting job within the next year.

THE J0KER wrote:But this summer problem with "useless" Chandler+Faried+Arthur is even bigger because together with their 30M+ contract salaries Nuggets would pay 50M+ luxury if they stay, and we have fewer assets to solve that than before. But FO solved it and did it in time, for the very reasonable price! And they find a final backup-guard solution for the next season which will indirectly solve our 2018-19 SF problem too, by Barton not playing backcourts duties anymore but only SF. And discussing are Thomas is the right new 6th man is pointless considering he is going to be paid on veteran minimum. The only similar cases this offseason where well-known NBA player (not too old) agree to be drastically underpaid one season to be in a better position to sign a better deal next summer is Cousins and Brook Lopez, so together with GSW and Bucks FO, we must to congrats and give some credit our FO which used such opportunity. Same about Michael Porter Jr draft pick. That is a great gamble move even if we lose that bet at the end if we know how big is the potential high ceiling of that player. Yes, they are lucky because such prospect stays so late in the draft, but the fact is that our FO at the end did what so many other teams FO which has higher 2018 draft pick choice missed, so credit to them again.



We dumped 3 expiring contracts that this front office signed, but sign another bad contract and kept a bad 2 year contract on the roster. Sorry but I am not giving them credit for dumping contracts they offered and signed, when they are doing the same thing. You want something interesting to look at? Go look at Jamal Crawford's history, he won many 6th man of the year awards, was always well paid, and was highly thought of. Until the Clippers last year, every single team that he was on got better the following year after he left. Atlanta and Toronto both got better after they lost Lou Williams and his contrats. The Warriors sign bench scorers all the time for the MLE, the Lakers used to pick them up off the scrap heap, The Heat signed them cheap every year. The one caveat to this is if the player is a highly skilled guy that could start for other teams, guys like Eric Gordan or Manu Ginobli and bring more than just scoring. Offense only bench scoring guards are not the difference between good and bad teams, but the teams that overpay for them end up stuck with salary issues, and end up middling teams at best. Hell we just picked up an offense only bench scoring guard for the minimum.

The other issue is that they did not even clear the glut of Pfs, we have 5 guys who primary position should be PF, we have a 3rd year SG that is still 4th on the depth chart at least, we have a 3rd year forward that appears to be 3rd on the depth chart at 2 positions, all supposedly have value, but instead of using guys that we know are not in the long term plan, we use future picks and keep depth that we have no use for and will continue to lose value. Sorry I do not see any reason to praise them.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#18 » by Richard Miller » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:53 pm

The Rebel wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Maybe you need to reread what I said.


Already read that, so what?


I literally said that they brought in Thomas instead of a guy with little skill left, so maybe you should read it again.


Yea, my bad, however the rest is not of concern, if he falls off the cliff a year or two later, his contract is only a year so cares. Who else was available anyway? I read the rumors about Tony Parker, but he too is even bigger injury concern and in the end didn't come anyway.
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#19 » by The Rebel » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:20 pm

Richard Miller wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
Already read that, so what?


I literally said that they brought in Thomas instead of a guy with little skill left, so maybe you should read it again.


Yea, my bad, however the rest is not of concern, if he falls off the cliff a year or two later, his contract is only a year so cares. Who else was available anyway? I read the rumors about Tony Parker, but he too is even bigger injury concern and in the end didn't come anyway.


My point with Thomas isn't that they signed him, it is that they have Morris doing everything he can to make the team and that the front office raves about, that is now without minutes. Between signing Barton, Craig, and Thomas they basically guaranteed that beasley is not going to get minutes. So why not trade Beasley at least? If you believe in the young guys why continue to bury them? If you don't believe in them and they still have value than why not trade them and keep some of the picks we just gave up?
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Re: Arturas Karnisovas 

Post#20 » by NuggetsWY » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:39 pm

The Rebel wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:If Karnisovas made a difference, we can not blame him for previous mistakes. Plus, do not forget, he is just the GM and Connelly and Kroenke made it clear they were Barton fans. Perhaps Karnisovas finally convinced them to move Chandler, Arthur, Faried - which should have been done 2 or 3 or even 4 years ago. I don't mind the salary dumps. Paying the tax for a non-contending team is smart. They could finish very high but the Nuggets seem likely to have homecourt advantage in round 1 as their highest target (with a first round win).


So wait he gets a pass because his title changed? Sorry but Connelly and Karnisovas got different titles and raises last summer so AK would not take the Bucks job, but nothing in the chain of command has changed.

You can choose to give anybody you want credit for the salary dumps, but I do not give any of them credit for those dumps. In fact that is something I hold against all of them. They dumped contracts that they signed to avoid the luxury tax, not for some roster balancing crap like you and the Nuggets are trying to spin it. I would have been much happier if instead of dumping salary they got creative and dumped salary while picking up players we need to fill gaps. I would much rather have walked away this summer with George Hill than Isaiah thomas, but it would have cost some young players that don't play. I would have rather given up a pick to flip Plumlee for a guy like Koufos instead of paying to dump Arthur and Faried for cap space. Insted of signing Barton to a big deal, I would have rather signed a placeholder and used his cap space to get a guy who is a long term 6th man. We might not get all the way out of the luxury tax but it would have cleared the cap for next summer and given us real room to build the team around the young core.
NuggetsWY wrote:I have made it clear that I am in favor of playing our young players more. I do not object to adding Thomas. I have not objected to adding Miller and Jefferson - and most of the other veterans. My objection continues to be Malone's preference to overuse veterans at the cost of developing young players. My objection has been and will continue to be Malone's rotations and his unwillingness to use a Jokic-centric offense and his pathetic approach to defense.


Malone has developed Murray, Jokic, Harris, Lyles and Juancho have shown promise but Juancho was sick and Lyles defense was terrible. They drafted 2 more forwards, while neither are likely to play this year, they added 2 more forwards in the draft. They resigned Craig and started pushing the idea that he can play SG and signed Thomas. What that all tells me is that for one reason or another they do not like Beasley and Lyles at a minimum and possibly Juancho, whether it is lack of talent, work ethic, or attitude I do not know but their moves show their thinking.

Signing Thomas and Craig I would say that relates directly into how they feel about Beasley's long term prognosis with this team. Beasley was supposed to be a 2 way player that can score and be a capable defender. He has shown glimpses as both, yet they bring in a score 1st, 2nd, and 3rd PG and resign a defensive specialist to play at backup SG, while ignoring their chance to sign Morris who they are reportedly very high on. They must not be too high on Beasley right now.

I understand draft Porter JR, he would have been in the running for 1st overall without the injury, you have to take that risk unless you get a godfather offer. I could understand if Vanderbilt had fallen to them and they took him, but instead they moved up using 2 2nd round picks to draft the guy and then signed him to a 3 year deal as soon as they could. So what does that say about Lyles? We now have 2 young PFs well as Juancho on the depth chart behind Lyles, and a young Sf sitting behind Craig and Juancho while promising the starting job to Barton so what does that say about Juancho?

We gave up future picks to dump salary, yet we have at least 2 guys that they do not view as the long term answer for this team in Beasley and Lyles, so why the picks and not the 2 players? Lyles proved he could be very productive last year, reports said that he had much more value than we gave for him, Juancho would be fine backing up both forward spots for the likely 10 mpg at each. They have signed guys to ensure that Beasley is not really used, so why is he still here is he not even worth a 2nd round pick? The only answer that makes sense is that the front office has said screw the future we have to make the playoffs, and are doing it to the detriment to the long term health of this team. So sorry I am not going to praise any of them right now, everything they did was short sighted and has shown that they still have the same issues that they have since Connelly and Arturas were brought in 5 years ago.

If they were developing young players, they would have found more PT for Beasley and they would have brought Morris in for more two-way NBA time. The brought Craig up and were less desperate for SF than for PG - where they brought in D.Harris. If they don't like Beasley, then get rid of him while he still holds value, unlike what they did with Faried, Gallinari, Arthur, Chandler - all of whom should have been traded last year or before.

No, I am not giving anyone a free pass on the stupidity of some of their decisions. What I am saying is they have somewhat moved in a better direction - although the Barton contract is almost as bad as the Plumlee contract. But either of those is fine, if the coach uses them correctly IMO.

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