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Just over 35 days until trailing cap and most of the guys are already doing some sort of "camping" already, so I ask you, what/who is your training cap surprise ??

Something inside me says Juancho is gonna be stepping his game up to push for big minutes this season. He's healthy, motivated and looking over his shoulder. He has got the talent, hustle and stroke but he also needs to show he can build onto his rookie season, that he's more than a prospect, he's a solid contributor.

skywalker33 wrote:Just over 35 days until trailing cap and most of the guys are already doing some sort of "camping" already, so I ask you, what/who is your training cap surprise ??

Something inside me says Juancho is gonna be stepping his game up to push for big minutes this season. He's healthy, motivated and looking over his shoulder. He has got the talent, hustle and stroke but he also needs to show he can build onto his rookie season, that he's more than a prospect, he's a solid contributor.

Surprise? I expected Morris to do very well. It's easier for a PG than most guys to look good and I liked what I saw in the G-League last year. So I'm not surprised at how well he looked.

I'm a little surprised/disappointed at Beasley's performance. He wasn't terrible, but he didn't really dominate.
Lydon might have been a bigger disappointment.

Akoon Purcell was my biggest surprise. He looked much better than I would have expected.
Cancar looked decent, but seemed like a bench player as his upside. (But I liked what I saw.)

I hadn't heard about Paul Millsap workout. Maybe he will do sometime soon or maybe I am wrong

skywalker33 wrote:Just over 35 days until trailing cap and most of the guys are already doing some sort of "camping" already, so I ask you, what/who is your training cap surprise ??

Something inside me says Juancho is gonna be stepping his game up to push for big minutes this season. He's healthy, motivated and looking over his shoulder. He has got the talent, hustle and stroke but he also needs to show he can build onto his rookie season, that he's more than a prospect, he's a solid contributor.

I would not be surprised if Juancho earned some solid minutes in training camp. I fully expect him to. He earned minutes over Craig, Lyles, and Beasley last year in training camp and then got sick. Hell after his rookie year most people felt comfortable with him being a big part of the rotation last year. He got sick, but it should not have any lasting effect once he recovers.

The guy I think has a breakout camp is Lydon, he really only does a couple of things well, but they are things that we need off the bench. A true outside shooting big that sets good screens and is a solid to good help defender off the bench would be perfect next to Plumlee and Thomas, especially if Juancho plays as well as I expect him too at backup SF, that would mean we could move Lyles and it would not matter if our SG can only shoot about average from outside so Craig can take those minutes if Beasley don't step up.

Juancho. I just think he is a really good fit on this roster and needs to be on the floor. I like Lyles but I think Juancho, Vanderbilt, Lydon and even MPJ are much better fits long term at the 4. Which is why I think Denver should move Lyles now before they make a mistake and commit to him long term. Move him for another young player or a 1st rd pick to use in the next draft.

The Rebel wrote:

skywalker33 wrote:Just over 35 days until trailing cap and most of the guys are already doing some sort of "camping" already, so I ask you, what/who is your training cap surprise ??

Something inside me says Juancho is gonna be stepping his game up to push for big minutes this season. He's healthy, motivated and looking over his shoulder. He has got the talent, hustle and stroke but he also needs to show he can build onto his rookie season, that he's more than a prospect, he's a solid contributor.

I would not be surprised if Juancho earned some solid minutes in training camp. I fully expect him to. He earned minutes over Craig, Lyles, and Beasley last year in training camp and then got sick. Hell after his rookie year most people felt comfortable with him being a big part of the rotation last year. He got sick, but it should not have any lasting effect once he recovers.

The guy I think has a breakout camp is Lydon, he really only does a couple of things well, but they are things that we need off the bench. A true outside shooting big that sets good screens and is a solid to good help defender off the bench would be perfect next to Plumlee and Thomas, especially if Juancho plays as well as I expect him too at backup SF, that would mean we could move Lyles and it would not matter if our SG can only shoot about average from outside so Craig can take those minutes if Beasley don't step up.

I'm right there with you with Lydon. A lot of people give him crap because he's not out there creating his own shot in summer league, truth is Lydon is very much a system guy. He has good feel, is a lights out shooter and can defend a little.

youngthegiant wrote:Juancho. I just think he is a really good fit on this roster and needs to be on the floor. I like Lyles but I think Juancho, Vanderbilt, Lydon and even MPJ are much better fits long term at the 4. Which is why I think Denver should move Lyles now before they make a mistake and commit to him long term. Move him for another young player or a 1st rd pick to use in the next draft.

No surprise here as I believe you were the one who started the "Juancho is still our PFOTF" thread last year even when he had mono.

At this point though you bring up some points to validate trading someone and Lyles does seem to have the edge in trade value as well as motivation from the FO to do so. Not sure what his agent is going to ask for, but I could see Lyles getting a 3-4yr $30-42M contract if he has a good year, I'd be OK with that especially if that 4th year is a TO.

Right now it's hard to say who is the PFOTF as I don't know what Juancho is able to bring, Lyles surely need to show he can play defense and hard to say where Lydon and Vanderbilt land as well. Heck, Millsap may still have 2-3 good years in him

So, out of these camp predictions, how many do enough to get mins on the court, any ?? Or are they just cementing their "future value" with the team ?

You know I love our young players but if we are not going to use them, especially before their contract ends, it's best to trade them while another team has a chance to evaluate them in their system. We have our starting-5 and our bench that is going to be playing includes Plumlee & Thomas. Of all the other players, we don't need them all. Veteran minimums can fill openings.

Lyles, Lydon, Hernangomez, Vanderbilt, Craig, Beasley, & Morris should all be made available - for the right return of either a better fit that might work long-term or any 1st round pick. That's just my opinion. Clearly we don't want to trade both Beasley & Morris unless they bring back a guard that is better than both (preferably young and willing to play the bench). Clearly we don't want to trade all five of those bench forwards but we could easily afford to trade 2 or maybe 3 of them - for the right return.

Future is Jokic + xxxxxx + Porter + Harris + Murray --- we need the right PF there and then fill in the bench.

On the other hand, if we don't trade anyone until next off-season, I'm OK with that too.

NuggetsWY wrote:You know I love our young players but if we are not going to use them, especially before their contract ends, it's best to trade them while another team has a chance to evaluate them in their system. We have our starting-5 and our bench that is going to be playing includes Plumlee & Thomas. Of all the other players, we don't need them all. Veteran minimums can fill openings.

Lyles, Lydon, Hernangomez, Vanderbilt, Craig, Beasley, & Morris should all be made available - for the right return of either a better fit that might work long-term or any 1st round pick. That's just my opinion. Clearly we don't want to trade both Beasley & Morris unless they bring back a guard that is better than both (preferably young and willing to play the bench). Clearly we don't want to trade all five of those bench forwards but we could easily afford to trade 2 or maybe 3 of them - for the right return.

Future is Jokic + xxxxxx + Porter + Harris + Murray --- we need the right PF there and then fill in the bench.

On the other hand, if we don't trade anyone until next off-season, I'm OK with that too.

The thing is having depth is not a bad thing, and having guys that are developmental prospects as the 13th,14th,15th men and the 2 way deal guys is not a bad thing. The issue is that by their 3rd year they have to be ready to play major minutes or they need to be gone.

I don't see Beasley as being able to beat out Thomas, Barton (if Juancho plays well as a backup SF), and Craig for backup minutes at SG. I think he has gotten better, and I think he will develop into a solid role player, but I don't see it happening here. If he beats them out than great, but if not he has to be traded for both the team and beasley.

Lydon or Juancho should be more than capable of being the backup PF who we all know will be the 4th big and not play more than 12 mpg, so the question is if the long term answer at starting PF is likely to be Lyles. I don't think he is.

This team needs a guy who can shoot and play defense as our 4th big, they fit that, Lyles not so much. It is not about dumping them all, that is short sighted, but the ones that are going into their 3rd or 4th year and you really do not see a future fit, then it is time to move them and trade for veteran role players and future picks. The nice thing about those TPEs is that we can take back a little salary in a deal.

$4.5-$5 million with Lyles salary this year, add in Beasley and that is $6.5-$7 million you can take back and stay under the tax. There are some solid expiring 4th bigs out there that will accept a 5th big role as an expiring deal. A guy like Jason Smith might bring in a good future 1st and even a possible 2nd for a guy like Lyles and taking a flyer on Beasley when they need bench scorers in Washington.

The guys like Morris, Welsh, Porter, Vanderbilt, Lydon, should all get at least a year to develop before we start worrying about moving them.

The Rebel wrote:The thing is having depth is not a bad thing, and having guys that are developmental prospects as the 13th,14th,15th men and the 2 way deal guys is not a bad thing. The issue is that by their 3rd year they have to be ready to play major minutes or they need to be gone.

By that definition, Lyles should be part of the core. He's proven to be capable of stepping into the starting lineup, maybe not the best fit but as the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Perhaps his defense isn't what everyone wants, but neither is Lydon's, Juancho's or ????

The Rebel wrote:I don't see Beasley as being able to beat out Thomas, Barton (if Juancho plays well as a backup SF), and Craig for backup minutes at SG. I think he has gotten better, and I think he will develop into a solid role player, but I don't see it happening here. If he beats them out than great, but if not he has to be traded for both the team and beasley.

Unfortunate as it is, I agree with this, I just hope we can get some value if we trade him.

The Rebel wrote:Lydon or Juancho should be more than capable of being the backup PF who we all know will be the 4th big and not play more than 12 mpg, so the question is if the long term answer at starting PF is likely to be Lyles. I don't think he is

Not sure what makes you so positive of that, Juancho was out 90% of last year and Lydon mostly played in the G-League and SL and he didn't really breakout. Not outta the question, but given both only have ONE year under their belts the question still remains large on both IMO. `

The Rebel wrote:This team needs a guy who can shoot and play defense as our 4th big, they fit that, Lyles not so much. It is not about dumping them all, that is short sighted, but the ones that are going into their 3rd or 4th year and you really do not see a future fit, then it is time to move them and trade for veteran role players and future picks. The nice thing about those TPEs is that we can take back a little salary in a deal.

$4.5-$5 million with Lyles salary this year, add in Beasley and that is $6.5-$7 million you can take back and stay under the tax. There are some solid expiring 4th bigs out there that will accept a 5th big role as an expiring deal. A guy like Jason Smith might bring in a good future 1st and even a possible 2nd for a guy like Lyles and taking a flyer on Beasley when they need bench scorers in Washington.

The guys like Morris, Welsh, Porter, Vanderbilt, Lydon, should all get at least a year to develop before we start worrying about moving them.

Every team need a PF who can shoot and play defense, and not only as their 4th big but as a starter, how many of those do you think there are ?? Lyles has proven he's a good shooter, and at 22yo he still can learn to play decent D, ....perhaps. At worst he can stretch the floor along with MPJ to open the lane for our guards.

If we could trade Lyles (or one of our other two forwards mentioned) along with Beasley for a decent draft package or young, solid prospect/vet I'd be ok with it because we have some potential depth, we should be able to find in TC. If Juancho or Lydon doesn't step up in camp, I'm all for keeping Lyles.

As for guys like Morris, Vanderbilt, Lydon they are too unproven to move yet, have to see what we have unless a REAL GOOD deal comes our way.

skywalker33 wrote:

The Rebel wrote:The thing is having depth is not a bad thing, and having guys that are developmental prospects as the 13th,14th,15th men and the 2 way deal guys is not a bad thing. The issue is that by their 3rd year they have to be ready to play major minutes or they need to be gone.

By that definition, Lyles should be part of the core. He's proven to be capable of stepping into the starting lineup, maybe not the best fit but as the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Perhaps his defense isn't what everyone wants, but neither is Lydon's, Juancho's or ????

If your only test is a guy being ready to play minutes making him a part of the core, then yes by that definition he would be. However I do not believe I said anything about that making them part of the core, just that it is time to make a decision once they reach that point.

The real issue for me with Lyles is that I view him as soft and a guy that I do not see as a long term enforcer type. If our starting lineup is projected to be Murray/ Harris/ Porter/ ? / Jokic than we need someone that is a little rough and tumble and not going to back down to protect our stars. Every great team has at least 1, and we really don't. I mean even a year ago, if we had KMart instead of millsap, do you think we miss the playoffs? I don't.

skywalker33 wrote:

The Rebel wrote:I don't see Beasley as being able to beat out Thomas, Barton (if Juancho plays well as a backup SF), and Craig for backup minutes at SG. I think he has gotten better, and I think he will develop into a solid role player, but I don't see it happening here. If he beats them out than great, but if not he has to be traded for both the team and beasley.

Unfortunate as it is, I agree with this, I just hope we can get some value if we trade him.

At least we agree on something.

skywalker33 wrote:

The Rebel wrote:Lydon or Juancho should be more than capable of being the backup PF who we all know will be the 4th big and not play more than 12 mpg, so the question is if the long term answer at starting PF is likely to be Lyles. I don't think he is

Not sure what makes you so positive of that, Juancho was out 90% of last year and Lydon mostly played in the G-League and SL and he didn't really breakout. Not outta the question, but given both only have ONE year under their belts the question still remains large on both IMO. `

Several reasons I am fine with Juancho and Lydon competing for the 10-12 minutes per game that are likely the max available.

I looked at Lyles game logs and remember many games clearly last year, when he got less than 15 mpg he was bad a far majority of the time. Over 15 mpg he was great, but those minutes are not likely available next year since he really cannot play any position other than backup PF.

A year from now we have to make a decision on Lyles, pay him or let him leave. If he is a part or your long term future than you are likely looking at a 2 or 3 year deal for $10-12 million per year, I do not see him as being that valuable as a 4th big, and I do not see him as the long term starter.

Lyles is never going to be what you want out of your 4th/5th starter, I do not remember him ever doing the dirty work, fighting hard for rebounds, diving on the floor, taking the charges, or setting hard screens. At the end of the day you need at least 1 guy on the court that is willing to do those things, and you do not want your stars doing it.

You can find 4th bigs cheap every year, we can easily get a 4th big for Lyles if your issue is the short term, but long term you have to decide if Lyles is the answer and nothing I have seen from him says he is.

Juacho showed his rookie year that he can shoot well from outside, and that he at least puts in effort and energy on defense, Lydon showed the same in summer league and the Dleague last year. Until they get minutes in an NBA game than they cannot do much more to prove they are capable.

skywalker33 wrote:

The Rebel wrote:This team needs a guy who can shoot and play defense as our 4th big, they fit that, Lyles not so much. It is not about dumping them all, that is short sighted, but the ones that are going into their 3rd or 4th year and you really do not see a future fit, then it is time to move them and trade for veteran role players and future picks. The nice thing about those TPEs is that we can take back a little salary in a deal.

$4.5-$5 million with Lyles salary this year, add in Beasley and that is $6.5-$7 million you can take back and stay under the tax. There are some solid expiring 4th bigs out there that will accept a 5th big role as an expiring deal. A guy like Jason Smith might bring in a good future 1st and even a possible 2nd for a guy like Lyles and taking a flyer on Beasley when they need bench scorers in Washington.

The guys like Morris, Welsh, Porter, Vanderbilt, Lydon, should all get at least a year to develop before we start worrying about moving them.

Every team need a PF who can shoot and play defense, and not only as their 4th big but as a starter, how many of those do you think there are ?? Lyles has proven he's a good shooter, and at 22yo he still can learn to play decent D, ....perhaps. At worst he can stretch the floor along with MPJ to open the lane for our guards.

Sorry but shooting has went from underrated to one of the most overrated stats in basketball. I want a 4th big that can shoot, because it is pretty obvious that Plumlee cannot shoot, and if Craig wins minutes at SG he will be a marginal shooter at best, and we have a ball dominate slashing PG that needs the floor spread to be effective.

Very few teams have 5 guys on the court that can shoot, even the 5 out that the Celtics talk about is crap when you consider how often Baynes starts and how many minutes Smart gets. The warrior start 2 or 3 guys every game that cannot shoot (even for all the hype of Green he is a bad outside shooter). The raptors had Derozan, Siakam, and Poetl who were not outside shooters in their top 6 player. The Rockets have Capela and he cannot shoot a lick. You need a mix of stars and guys willing to do the dirty work and be an enforcer type that set the hard screens, cut to the rim, fight for boards on both ends, cut to the rim, and that is the biggest thing this team is missing and has been since they lost Kenyon Martin.

Lyles is never going to be that guy, that is not his personality, and i do not see that changing. We have 4 all star or better potential guys on the roster, 3 of which have already shown to be above average to superstars on the court. They are all 4 good shooters and good playmakers, and can run the offense at an elite level even with a guy like Chandler who played so terrible last year. We need to build around those guys, and find role players to hide their weaknesses and help with the dirty work. Lyles needs to be on a team where he can be the 2nd scorer or the 3rd starter type, he is never going to be the guy we need to surround our guys with.

Vanderbilt projects to be the exact type we need next to our stars in a year or two, I can envision Juancho as being a rich man’s Najera who would also fit what we need, Lydon to me is never going to be more than a bench 3 and d PF. Lyles reminds me of Abdur Rahim with better shooting, a good guy to have if you need a scorer, but terrible if you need someone to do the hard work, and he is never going to lead your team to anything.

skywalker33 wrote:
If we could trade Lyles (or one of our other two forwards mentioned) along with Beasley for a decent draft package or young, solid prospect/vet I'd be ok with it because we have some potential depth, we should be able to find in TC. If Juancho or Lydon doesn't step up in camp, I'm all for keeping Lyles.

As for guys like Morris, Vanderbilt, Lydon they are too unproven to move yet, have to see what we have unless a REAL GOOD deal comes our way.

I agree if the right deal comes around than you make it, regardless of who is going out. However at the end of the day this is the year they have to make the playoffs. Part of building a team is getting pieces to fit around each other, and that can make the team better as a whole. That is the next step that this front office needs to do, yet I have not seen any indication that they know how to do it. We need role players, not scorers.

The Rebel wrote:If your only test is a guy being ready to play minutes making him a part of the core, then yes by that definition he would be. However I do not believe I said anything about that making them part of the core, just that it is time to make a decision once they reach that point.

The real issue for me with Lyles is that I view him as soft and a guy that I do not see as a long term enforcer type. If our starting lineup is projected to be Murray/ Harris/ Porter/ ? / Jokic than we need someone that is a little rough and tumble and not going to back down to protect our stars. Every great team has at least 1, and we really don't. I mean even a year ago, if we had KMart instead of millsap, do you think we miss the playoffs? I don't.

Well, I was going by the determination you set down

The Rebel wrote:The issue is that by their 3rd year they have to be ready to play major minutes or they need to be gone.

Lyles, even after his confidence-crushing 2nd year, bounced back to show he could step in to play major minutes. Over the time Millsap was out, he averaged about 14ppg/8rpgs with several 20ppg+ games, seems like a promising audition. Even if we sign him, it doesn't mean he is in line for the starter, he could stay as a nice 6th man, that could be a core role in my mind. I see him as a stretch 4 which is where I see the NBA going, the old Kmart role would just clog up the middle, detrimental to our guards.

The Rebel wrote:Several reasons I am fine with Juancho and Lydon competing for the 10-12 minutes per game that are likely the max available.

I looked at Lyles game logs and remember many games clearly last year, when he got less than 15 mpg he was bad a far majority of the time. Over 15 mpg he was great, but those minutes are not likely available next year since he really cannot play any position other than backup PF.

With Millsap turning 34 this year, it's not out of the question that we try to keep him fresher for the playoffs, I can see his minutes dropping to 27-30mpg leaving 18-21mpg so 15+ for Lyles wouldn't be out of the range of possibilites. That said, those mins could go just as easy to Juancho if he plays well, don't see Lydon getting many mins myself.

The Rebel wrote:A year from now we have to make a decision on Lyles, pay him or let him leave. If he is a part or your long term future than you are likely looking at a 2 or 3 year deal for $10-12 million per year, I do not see him as being that valuable as a 4th big, and I do not see him as the long term starter.

Lyles is never going to be what you want out of your 4th/5th starter, I do not remember him ever doing the dirty work, fighting hard for rebounds, diving on the floor, taking the charges, or setting hard screens. At the end of the day you need at least 1 guy on the court that is willing to do those things, and you do not want your stars doing it.

It really doesn't matter what YOU or I want, it's about what the FO wants to do. Part of me thinks he'll get paid to minimize the "trade mistake" stigma much as they did with Plumlee. And I'd be OK with him as our 4th big, every team needs scoring off the bench and Trey can do just that. And let's be honest, IT is not gonna be on the bench next season so a bit of continuity/chemistry is not a bad thing IMO. Lastly, I do see hims as an positiver asset, stretch 4's are a commodity that can be moved in trade, he may not be a perfect fit for us but could be for another team, especially when we trade for AD

The Rebel wrote:Juancho showed his rookie year that he can shoot well from outside, and that he at least puts in effort and energy on defense, Lydon showed the same in summer league and the Dleague last year. Until they get minutes in an NBA game than they cannot do much more to prove they are capable.

Juancho had more DNP's than he did with double digit scoring in his rookie year , I'll wait to see how it does this year, Lyles shot just as well last year as Juancho did in his rookie year so let the competition begin. And most rookies hustle their asses off and then that seems to go by the wayside, I want it to happen, I'm just not gonna jump that gun.

As for Lydon, he didn't stand out vs. G-League or SL competition, but this is only his 2nd year, again I wait to see what he shows in TC before I give him the backup PF job

The Rebel wrote:Sorry but shooting has went from underrated to one of the most overrated stats in basketball. I want a 4th big that can shoot, because it is pretty obvious that Plumlee cannot shoot, and if Craig wins minutes at SG he will be a marginal shooter at best, and we have a ball dominate slashing PG that needs the floor spread to be effective.

Lyles, Juancho or Lydon look like they can fill that role, may the best man win !!

The Rebel wrote:You need a mix of stars and guys willing to do the dirty work and be an enforcer type that set the hard screens, cut to the rim, fight for boards on both ends, cut to the rim, and that is the biggest thing this team is missing and has been since they lost Kenyon Martin.

Lyles is never going to be that guy, that is not his personality, and i do not see that changing. Lyles needs to be on a team where he can be the 2nd scorer or the 3rd starter type, he is never going to be the guy we need to surround our guys with.

Vanderbilt projects to be the exact type we need next to our stars in a year or two, I can envision Juancho as being a rich man’s Najera who would also fit what we need, Lydon to me is never going to be more than a bench 3 and d PF. Lyles reminds me of Abdur Rahim with better shooting, a good guy to have if you need a scorer, but terrible if you need someone to do the hard work, and he is never going to lead your team to anything.

I think our perspectives of Lyles future role differ, I see him as an important bench player who can fill when called upon, you seem to believe I am touting his as our starter. He just needs to fill his best role and be prepared to step up when needed.

I agree with you exactly that Vanderbilt is our future starter if he can put on about 35lbs of muscle, he fits in exactly like Millsap. Also, I like theLyles/Abdul Rahim and Juancho/Najara comparisons.

Guess for me, Juancho and Lydon are both 1st year players that need to SHOW ME (yes, as, I was born in Missouri) before I'm giving them anything, at least I know what I can expect with Lyles

Speaking of Vanderbilt, he's had time to recover from injuries but we really haven't heard a lot about it. I read he should be ready for training camp,will we see that insane rebounder or will be be sidelined again, perhaps "banished" to the weight room ??

skywalker33 wrote:Speaking of Vanderbilt, he's had time to recover from injuries but we really haven't heard a lot about it. I read he should be ready for training camp,will we see that insane rebounder or will be be sidelined again, perhaps "banished" to the weight room ??

It's the Nuggets, so my best guess is that we might see him in training camp or we might not.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Vanderbilt surprises everyone with his motor and nose for rebounds. He ends up immediately getting befriended and mentored by both Millsap and Jokic who instantly like and relate to him as as they were also second round picks, Millsap at 47th and Jokic at the exact same slot of 41st.

Yuri Vaultin wrote:I'll go out on a limb and say that Vanderbilt surprises everyone with his motor and nose for rebounds. He ends up immediately getting befriended and mentored by both Millsap and Jokic who instantly like and relate to him as as they were also second round picks, Millsap at 47th and Jokic at the exact same slot of 41st.

I surely do think you might be right and I do hope he is 100% for training camp (there's my worry).

Yeah, I’m in on Vanderbilt too,almost as much as I like MPJ. If he can put on the necessary strength and weight, I can easily see V as the heir apparent to Millsap, they share some very similar traits.