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2019 Off-Season Questions

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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#501 » by skywalker33 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:24 pm

So am I the only one think we're retaining Barton until we actually see what we have with Porter on the floor ?? I can't see any other reason he hasn't been put on the trading block HARD
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#502 » by Coeur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:52 pm

Timmyyy wrote:
Coeur wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote: Your constant hammering on concepts no one else here is interested in, bores me.
:confused: Your weird concept of logic leaves me rather puzzled as to how you can even come up with this nonsense.
:giveup: I'll give up in trying to reason with you.
:dontknow: I don't know what else to do.

My wife taught our children that if you are arguing with one person, it's no big deal. If you are arguing with two people, perhaps you should consider your position. But she told them, when it seems like everyone in your life is arguing with you and saying you don't make sense --- you're probably wrong.

I get you. I get why you won’t defend your statements.


You will see through time that I’m better at evaluating talent than you. But for annoying any of you guys I am sorry. Im paying for part of this ****. I get that it doesn’t give me extra rights to complain but I’ve been following Nugs for a long time and it’s closer than ever. I don’t want a top 2 seed. I want a title. The current roster will be a great regular season team


How many season tickets do you buy and for how long ?

Wait aren't you the guy that is consistently posting about how the Nuggets should trade for Wiggins? I mean your the last human being on earth that still does not understand that such an obviously bad player isn't good. I would say you are the only one thinking so high of your abilities.

Btw Gary Harris and Paul Millsap are our most impactful players after Jokic. We have +/- stats that give us a solid idea about impact of players on point differentials of basketball games and they show us how important Gary and Paul are. Just another example that shows that your high opinion of yourself (still have to laugh that you really wrote that :D) is completely unjustified.

But hey, dream on.

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Yeah def that’s me.

My snap judgment of you then is that you aren’t understanding that ability and opportunity are 2 separate factors that add up to production.


You put the right guys in the right spots and they preform.


Andrew Wiggins is an Elite athlete. And has some elite skills. As a playmaker and a #1 option his weak spots are more exposed and his production isn’t efficient or however you’re looking at stats. You put in the same offensive opportunities as Gary Harris and I think his elite talents are more useable and his negatives easier to “hide”.


I might be wrong about Wiggins. I’m here just for entertainment and hoping you have a better fit to add what could take the Nugs over the top? Any ideas?
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#503 » by THE J0KER » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:03 pm

I guess off-season is over for Denver.

To be fair, after we finally solved forward problem with Jeramy Grant we have no urgent problems in our roster anymore. SF is not Grant natural position, but he can play some minutes at that position, and also we can now play more successfully small ball rotations with Grant at PF instead undersized Craig.

But if we still want to make a more competitive roster we can do it this week. For example, to be the third side in eventual CP3 trade to Miami.

Chris Paul to Miami
Dragic, Winslow, Meyers Leonard, Barton, Plumlee, Juancho, DEN2022-1st to Oklahoma
Gallinari, CHI2020-2nd (via OKC) to Denver


Advantage of taking Galo for (at least) a season is that he doesn't need to be adjusted to our system, he was here in 2016-17 when it system is created. The worst thing (risk) is his injury history, of course.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#504 » by TunaFish » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:36 pm

THE J0KER wrote:I guess off-season is over for Denver.

To be fair, after we finally solved forward problem with Jeramy Grant we have no urgent problems in our roster anymore. SF is not Grant natural position, but he can play some minutes at that position, and also we can now play more successfully small ball rotations with Grant at PF instead undersized Craig.

But if we still want to make a more competitive roster we can do it this week. For example, to be the third side in eventual CP3 trade to Miami.

Chris Paul to Miami
Dragic, Winslow, Meyers Leonard, Barton, Plumlee, Juancho, DEN2022-1st to Oklahoma
Gallinari, CHI2020-2nd (via OKC) to Denver


Advantage of taking Galo for (at least) a season is that he doesn't need to be adjusted to our system, he was here in 2016-17 when it system is created. The worst thing (risk) is his injury history, of course.


So, you want to send out Barton, Plumlee, Juancho and a 1st to get Galo and a second. No backup center returning and a first gone. We wouldn't even get to see if Hernangomez was really injured or not last season and lose his restricted free agency to evaluate him. All to get Galo on an expiring deal.

No and then some.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#505 » by Timmyyy » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:38 pm

Coeur wrote:
Timmyyy wrote:
Coeur wrote:I get you. I get why you won’t defend your statements.


You will see through time that I’m better at evaluating talent than you. But for annoying any of you guys I am sorry. Im paying for part of this ****. I get that it doesn’t give me extra rights to complain but I’ve been following Nugs for a long time and it’s closer than ever. I don’t want a top 2 seed. I want a title. The current roster will be a great regular season team


How many season tickets do you buy and for how long ?

Wait aren't you the guy that is consistently posting about how the Nuggets should trade for Wiggins? I mean your the last human being on earth that still does not understand that such an obviously bad player isn't good. I would say you are the only one thinking so high of your abilities.

Btw Gary Harris and Paul Millsap are our most impactful players after Jokic. We have +/- stats that give us a solid idea about impact of players on point differentials of basketball games and they show us how important Gary and Paul are. Just another example that shows that your high opinion of yourself (still have to laugh that you really wrote that :D) is completely unjustified.

But hey, dream on.

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Yeah def that’s me.

My snap judgment of you then is that you aren’t understanding that ability and opportunity are 2 separate factors that add up to production.


You put the right guys in the right spots and they preform.


Andrew Wiggins is an Elite athlete. And has some elite skills. As a playmaker and a #1 option his weak spots are more exposed and his production isn’t efficient or however you’re looking at stats. You put in the same offensive opportunities as Gary Harris and I think his elite talents are more useable and his negatives easier to “hide”.


I might be wrong about Wiggins. I’m here just for entertainment and hoping you have a better fit to add what could take the Nugs over the top? Any ideas?
Your snap judgement is again so arrogant.

Wiggins had a lot of different opportunities (as a 3rd Option behind Butler and KAT, as a 2nd behind KAT and as a 1st Option in his Rookie year) and has proven zero ability.
Elite skill? Are you kidding? He isn't a good shooter, ball handler or passer. His offensive IQ is at best 0. His defense is ass. His athleticism is a purely theoretical construct. He has hops, but his speed and quickness is absolutely useless because he isnt fluid at all on offense and on defense. And you can dream all you want how his athleticism will at some point be functional but then his IQ will still be ass.

And the way you are talking you have zero feeling for impact. Wiggins is the epitome of an low impact player. The boxscore shows you what a player does, not if what he does has a positive effect on the game.

To your last paragraph. Wiggins wouldn't put us over anything, he would make us worse. So basically every decent SF would make us better than Wiggins including staying put.

But hey in the end you with your superior talent evaluation will be right :D

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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#506 » by Coeur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:19 pm

Timmyyy wrote:
Coeur wrote:
Timmyyy wrote:Wait aren't you the guy that is consistently posting about how the Nuggets should trade for Wiggins? I mean your the last human being on earth that still does not understand that such an obviously bad player isn't good. I would say you are the only one thinking so high of your abilities.

Btw Gary Harris and Paul Millsap are our most impactful players after Jokic. We have +/- stats that give us a solid idea about impact of players on point differentials of basketball games and they show us how important Gary and Paul are. Just another example that shows that your high opinion of yourself (still have to laugh that you really wrote that :D) is completely unjustified.

But hey, dream on.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) using RealGM mobile app

Yeah def that’s me.

My snap judgment of you then is that you aren’t understanding that ability and opportunity are 2 separate factors that add up to production.


You put the right guys in the right spots and they preform.


Andrew Wiggins is an Elite athlete. And has some elite skills. As a playmaker and a #1 option his weak spots are more exposed and his production isn’t efficient or however you’re looking at stats. You put in the same offensive opportunities as Gary Harris and I think his elite talents are more useable and his negatives easier to “hide”.


I might be wrong about Wiggins. I’m here just for entertainment and hoping you have a better fit to add what could take the Nugs over the top? Any ideas?
Your snap judgement is again so arrogant.

Wiggins had a lot of different opportunities (as a 3rd Option behind Butler and KAT, as a 2nd behind KAT and as a 1st Option in his Rookie year) and has proven zero ability.
Elite skill? Are you kidding? He isn't a good shooter, ball handler or passer. His offensive IQ is at best 0. His defense is ass. His athleticism is a purely theoretical construct. He has hops, but his speed and quickness is absolutely useless because he isnt fluid at all on offense and on defense. And you can dream all you want how his athleticism will at some point be functional but then his IQ will still be ass.

And the way you are talking you have zero feeling for impact. Wiggins is the epitome of an low impact player. The boxscore shows you what a player does, not if what he does has a positive effect on the game.

To your last paragraph. Wiggins wouldn't put us over anything, he would make us worse. So basically every decent SF would make us better than Wiggins including staying put.

But hey in the end you with your superior talent evaluation will be right :D

Sent from my Moto G (5S) using RealGM mobile app

I pushed a Wiggins idea and project different results than you obviously.

The 3rd guy role I see different than you. I think Jokic and Murray playmake and set up situations for others completely different than Butler/KAT and those wolves. I thought that looked like a “your turn, my turn” type offense.


I just believe hugely that anyone’s game can be vastly different depending on the surroundings.

Enough on Wiggins though, the last paragraph you talked about I think I was really hoping you’d have an idea on someone worth sending multiple pieces out for?
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#507 » by THE J0KER » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:47 pm

TunaFish wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:I guess off-season is over for Denver.

To be fair, after we finally solved forward problem with Jeramy Grant we have no urgent problems in our roster anymore. SF is not Grant natural position, but he can play some minutes at that position, and also we can now play more successfully small ball rotations with Grant at PF instead undersized Craig.

But if we still want to make a more competitive roster we can do it this week. For example, to be the third side in eventual CP3 trade to Miami.

Chris Paul to Miami
Dragic, Winslow, Meyers Leonard, Barton, Plumlee, Juancho, DEN2022-1st to Oklahoma
Gallinari, CHI2020-2nd (via OKC) to Denver


Advantage of taking Galo for (at least) a season is that he doesn't need to be adjusted to our system, he was here in 2016-17 when it system is created. The worst thing (risk) is his injury history, of course.


So, you want to send out Barton, Plumlee, Juancho and a 1st to get Galo and a second. No backup center returning and a first gone. We wouldn't even get to see if Hernangomez was really injured or not last season and lose his restricted free agency to evaluate him. All to get Galo on an expiring deal.

No and then some.

Look at the bigger picture.

- Murray-Harris-Gallinari-Millsap-Jokic is TOP5 starting lineup in the league.
- Morris-Beasley-Porter-Grant would be probably best bench in the league, with all 4 would be starters in most of NBA teams.
- With Gallinari, Grant, and Millsap, we can play small ball these minutes when Jokic is on the bench, and we can use Bol Bol, JV, and Welsh, and also we still can buy one backup center
- Barton is a negative asset for Denver under the next 3 years
- Our 2022 first is going to be most probably 25-30, while Chicago 2020 2nd 35-40, which is not so big difference for late picks
- It is too late for Juancho in Denver with Grant comes and Porter gets development priority.
- Galo would be used 25+ mpg on high level, while Plumlee+Juancho together will play under 25mpg this season, and while Barton has negative impact anyway
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#508 » by skywalker33 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:10 am

THE J0KER wrote:Look at the bigger picture.

- Murray-Harris-Gallinari-Millsap-Jokic is TOP5 starting lineup in the league.
- Morris-Beasley-Porter-Grant would be probably best bench in the league, with all 4 would be starters in most of NBA teams.
- With Gallinari, Grant, and Millsap, we can play small ball these minutes when Jokic is on the bench, and we can use Bol Bol, JV, and Welsh, and also we still can buy one backup center
- Barton is a negative asset for Denver under the next 3 years
- Our 2022 first is going to be most probably 25-30, while Chicago 2020 2nd 35-40, which is not so big difference for late picks
- It is too late for Juancho in Denver with Grant comes and Porter gets development priority.
- Galo would be used 25+ mpg on high level, while Plumlee+Juancho together will play under 25mpg this season, and while Barton has negative impact anyway


Let's look at the REAL world now:

Most of these are presumptions on your part when you look at it on paper.

- maybe that starting unit is TOP5, chemistry and injuries in 3/5 play a big part there.
- Maybe that bench is TOP5, maybe it isn't (it should be though).
- With all the salaries given this offseason, you may actually be able to get something for Barton, I personally think he just doesn't fit in with this team talent and versatility on his side IMOscheme/philosophy not that he has negative value. He does have
- CHI is assembling more talent each draft,they could make the playoffs in the East. I can just as easily see their 2nd being in the mid-to-late 40's as late 30's . And there is talent in West, if it continues to get better we don't know what'll happen, unless you KNOW what 2022 will bring you're just making a guess.
- Why is too late for Juancho, is Porter lighting up the Summer League, perhaps we have all our forward positions nailed down ??? And Millsap won't be around forever. It is a good possibility Juancho's on the move but remember Gallo is only a one year rental, that's a high price for 1 year with his injury history.
- And you have already seen how unpredictable Malone is with mins, perhaps you convinced him of a mins plan already.

It could happen but I agree with Tuna, it's a big overpay. IF all those things happen I could see your trade having merit but those ALL being factual aren't likely IMO
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#509 » by NuggetsWY » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:41 am

Big picture - long-term - Assuming Plumlee & Millsap & Barton are gone

Jokic - ?Bol maybe
Grant? maybe - Vanderbilt? maybe
Porter? maybe
Harris - Beasley? or will he be too good to be a backup?
Murray - Morris

Can Hernangomez prove to be reliable health-wise and playing consistently?
Will Craig prove too good to be kept to limited/emergency playing time?
Will Welsh prove himself good enough to become a rotation player?

I think the future looks very nice.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#510 » by TunaFish » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:57 am

NuggetsWY wrote:Can Hernangomez prove to be reliable health-wise and playing consistently?


With Hernangomez we had no idea what caused his decline in January until the end of the season when it was announced that he had surgery for a core injury. It turns out that this involves in injury to the abdominal muscles where they attach to your pelvis. I am no doctor but that sounds like a sharp elbow or something else that struck him in lower stomach area. Undoubtedly, this type of injury would hurt like hell.

That's not the same type of injury that would effect your arms or legs or knees. I can't imagine this type of injury effecting his future as a basketball player. A groin pull would be similar and probably have the same rate of recovery. That's not to say that any injury that requires surgery is not serious but recovery is likely.

It's like the Nuggets' players gravitate to these type of injuries.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#511 » by The Rebel » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:19 pm

TunaFish wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:Can Hernangomez prove to be reliable health-wise and playing consistently?


With Hernangomez we had no idea what caused his decline in January until the end of the season when it was announced that he had surgery for a core injury. It turns out that this involves in injury to the abdominal muscles where they attach to your pelvis. I am no doctor but that sounds like a sharp elbow or something else that struck him in lower stomach area. Undoubtedly, this type of injury would hurt like hell.

That's not the same type of injury that would effect your arms or legs or knees. I can't imagine this type of injury effecting his future as a basketball player. A groin pull would be similar and probably have the same rate of recovery. That's not to say that any injury that requires surgery is not serious but recovery is likely.

It's like the Nuggets' players gravitate to these type of injuries.


They openly talked about Juancho core muscles getting hurt in January but it was never brought up past the 1st couple of weeks until he had the surgery after the season.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#512 » by skywalker33 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:59 pm

The Rebel wrote:
TunaFish wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:Can Hernangomez prove to be reliable health-wise and playing consistently?


With Hernangomez we had no idea what caused his decline in January until the end of the season when it was announced that he had surgery for a core injury. It turns out that this involves in injury to the abdominal muscles where they attach to your pelvis. I am no doctor but that sounds like a sharp elbow or something else that struck him in lower stomach area. Undoubtedly, this type of injury would hurt like hell.

That's not the same type of injury that would effect your arms or legs or knees. I can't imagine this type of injury effecting his future as a basketball player. A groin pull would be similar and probably have the same rate of recovery. That's not to say that any injury that requires surgery is not serious but recovery is likely.

It's like the Nuggets' players gravitate to these type of injuries.


They openly talked about Juancho core muscles getting hurt in January but it was never brought up past the 1st couple of weeks until he had the surgery after the season.


So why didn't he have surgery then ? Vandy was capable of playing mins (would've been good experience) and probably given the same production at that time, which wasn't that much.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#513 » by TunaFish » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:57 pm

The Rebel wrote:
TunaFish wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:Can Hernangomez prove to be reliable health-wise and playing consistently?


With Hernangomez we had no idea what caused his decline in January until the end of the season when it was announced that he had surgery for a core injury. It turns out that this involves in injury to the abdominal muscles where they attach to your pelvis. I am no doctor but that sounds like a sharp elbow or something else that struck him in lower stomach area. Undoubtedly, this type of injury would hurt like hell.

That's not the same type of injury that would effect your arms or legs or knees. I can't imagine this type of injury effecting his future as a basketball player. A groin pull would be similar and probably have the same rate of recovery. That's not to say that any injury that requires surgery is not serious but recovery is likely.

It's like the Nuggets' players gravitate to these type of injuries.


They openly talked about Juancho core muscles getting hurt in January but it was never brought up past the 1st couple of weeks until he had the surgery after the season.


I missed that.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#514 » by TunaFish » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:59 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
TunaFish wrote:
With Hernangomez we had no idea what caused his decline in January until the end of the season when it was announced that he had surgery for a core injury. It turns out that this involves in injury to the abdominal muscles where they attach to your pelvis. I am no doctor but that sounds like a sharp elbow or something else that struck him in lower stomach area. Undoubtedly, this type of injury would hurt like hell.

That's not the same type of injury that would effect your arms or legs or knees. I can't imagine this type of injury effecting his future as a basketball player. A groin pull would be similar and probably have the same rate of recovery. That's not to say that any injury that requires surgery is not serious but recovery is likely.

It's like the Nuggets' players gravitate to these type of injuries.


They openly talked about Juancho core muscles getting hurt in January but it was never brought up past the 1st couple of weeks until he had the surgery after the season.


So why didn't he have surgery then ? Vandy was capable of playing mins (would've been good experience) and probably given the same production at that time, which wasn't that much.


No doubt, Hernangomez shouldn't have been playing. As to the waiting on surgery, my guess is that they didn't know the extent of the injury at the time.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#515 » by Coeur » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:48 pm

Barton would be a great value for a lot of teams. He’s great value for the Nugs. It’s just there’s too many guys. This stigma of Barton is a bad contract is because of the weakness of the Nugs position of being willing and/or wanting to trade him.


Celtics when they stacked up trade value almost had “too much” and could never make a deal because a team dealing w them will always be in the power position - I think Nugs have a little of that and would need to over pay in a trade maybe.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#516 » by The Rebel » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:47 pm

skywalker33 wrote:So am I the only one think we're retaining Barton until we actually see what we have with Porter on the floor ?? I can't see any other reason he hasn't been put on the trading block HARD


I can see that being the plan, realistically we have Murray, Jokic, Morris, and depending on matchups Harris, Millsap, and Grant that can create shots for themselves. WE really need another guy who can dependably create their own shot, and while Barton;s regression in play style drives us all nuts it is a fact that his ability to create his own shot and for others can come in handy if he is willing to pick his spots better.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#517 » by The Rebel » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:58 pm

TunaFish wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
They openly talked about Juancho core muscles getting hurt in January but it was never brought up past the 1st couple of weeks until he had the surgery after the season.


So why didn't he have surgery then ? Vandy was capable of playing mins (would've been good experience) and probably given the same production at that time, which wasn't that much.


No doubt, Hernangomez shouldn't have been playing. As to the waiting on surgery, my guess is that they didn't know the extent of the injury at the time.



If you remember at the time Harris, Millsap, and Barton were all out injured and VAnderbilt was not cleared for contact. He had a dramatic drop in production in early January and missed a game or two, but at that time our depth was lacking and I am sure he was minimizing the injury and as much as I hate to say it I can see the team doing the same due to the other injuries. I want to see what happens next season, I can see plenty of reason to doubt his long term ability, but I think he deserves another shot considering the sacrifice he really did make trying to play through an injury that sidelined Barton and caused all the issues Harris had last year.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#518 » by The Rebel » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:01 pm

Coeur wrote:Barton would be a great value for a lot of teams. He’s great value for the Nugs. It’s just there’s too many guys. This stigma of Barton is a bad contract is because of the weakness of the Nugs position of being willing and/or wanting to trade him.


Celtics when they stacked up trade value almost had “too much” and could never make a deal because a team dealing w them will always be in the power position - I think Nugs have a little of that and would need to over pay in a trade maybe.



While Nuggets fans have wanted to send Barton for a while, there is nothing out there saying that the Front office has even considered trading him.

Also the Nuggets have no reason to overpay, we are in a huge position of power right now. We were the 4th youngest team to make the 2nd round in NBA history, we have our young core under our control, and every report out there is that everybody in the lockerroom is buying in. We do not have to make any trades, we don't have to do ****, it is other teams that desperately need to make changes and have been to compete with us this summer. We need a couple of the young guys to take another step forward and we are better just by adding Grant and that improvement.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#519 » by NuggetsWY » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:09 pm

The Rebel wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:So am I the only one think we're retaining Barton until we actually see what we have with Porter on the floor ?? I can't see any other reason he hasn't been put on the trading block HARD

I can see that being the plan, realistically we have Murray, Jokic, Morris, and depending on matchups Harris, Millsap, and Grant that can create shots for themselves. WE really need another guy who can dependably create their own shot, and while Barton;s regression in play style drives us all nuts it is a fact that his ability to create his own shot and for others can come in handy if he is willing to pick his spots better.

Agree, totally - I'm also wondering if Vanderbilt can't create his own shot. Maybe not against everyone, but I like his handles against most bigs.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#520 » by psimanic1 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:11 am

Don't know about you guys, but I think I would rather have JR Smith from the bench than Barton to be honest...

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