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Michael Porter Jr

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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#121 » by Manolito » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:25 pm

NBA’s All-Bubble teams for seeding games:

First team: Damian Lillard, Devin Booker, TJ Warren Luka Doncic, James Harden


Second team: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kawhi Leonard, Kristaps Porzingis, Caris LeVert, Michael Porter Jr.

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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#122 » by hippesthippo » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:33 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
TunaFish wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:With three elite offensive options in Jokic-MPJ-Murray, good defenders should take advantage of the remaining two spots, which means Harris over Barton. That is how I see a solution for starting lineup. Barton can play as a backup-SG and backup-SF both (even backup-PG if necessary), so he will play over 25mpg... but from the bench, which is actually better for him to be on the floor all these minutes when Jokic not playing.


Barton and Millsap coming off the bench strengthens the team's chances of advancing.

Harris has to show something. Here is to hoping he can return.

I would stay with expiring Millsap as a starter until the end of the season.
Both options are legit, but potential backfire of the decision to grant starting job to Grant this playoff can be his too much pumped price.


Nuggets made the WCSF last year. Is it really wise to let potential future salary ramifications impact a contenders ability to put the best lineup out on the floor? I think Barton and Millsap should come off the bench.

Back on the topic, that MPJ rainbow shot is money.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#123 » by skywalker33 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:31 am

hippesthippo wrote:Nuggets made the WCSF last year. Is it really wise to let potential future salary ramifications impact a contenders ability to put the best lineup out on the floor? I think Barton and Millsap should come off the bench


I'd agree with you on Barton, really don't know what he'll bring (if he gets back) but Millsap should start, his defense does make the team better and he deserves it, he did help get us there. Grant will be resigned and start next year, PM may not be on the team next year. I'd bet Grant will give the respect to PM.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#124 » by TunaFish » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:09 am

Denver fans, you are going to love this:

Read on Twitter
Canned in Denver.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#125 » by Mulhollanddrive » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:45 pm

If the lottery winner wants to do #1 for MPJ would you consider it?

(Phoenix fan asking)
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#126 » by NuggetsWY » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:23 pm

Mulhollanddrive wrote:If the lottery winner wants to do #1 for MPJ would you consider it?

(Phoenix fan asking)

Thanks for the visit and the acceptable question. No doubt it is tempting, but I'm one that says no way. Any lottery pick is a gamble and Porter is a known quantity. The only way keeping him is wrong is if he ends up unable to play due to injury/health type issues. That's a gamble for any player anyway. But thanks for asking.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#127 » by The Rebel » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:51 pm

Mulhollanddrive wrote:If the lottery winner wants to do #1 for MPJ would you consider it?

(Phoenix fan asking)


I would if that was all that was in the deal.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#128 » by skywalker33 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:04 pm

The Rebel wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:If the lottery winner wants to do #1 for MPJ would you consider it?

(Phoenix fan asking)


I would if that was all that was in the deal.


Can I inquire who you would think you'd select ?? Edwards ...Wiseman..??
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#129 » by The Rebel » Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:11 am

skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:If the lottery winner wants to do #1 for MPJ would you consider it?

(Phoenix fan asking)


I would if that was all that was in the deal.


Can I inquire who you would think you'd select ?? Edwards ...Wiseman..??


Whoever the Wizards want. This year I have paid basically no attention to the college guys, so I would flip the pick to the Wizards along with Harris, Barton, Bol, and the HOuston pick for Beal, Troy Brown JR, and a 2nd round pick.

I love Porter Jr's potential, I think he can be a great player in this league, but he has a long way to go. Beal is ready to be the 2nd star on a championship team right now. This moves Murray to the 3rd option and gives us a defensive 3, if we resign Grant, use the MLE for a backup 4/5 and trade Morris for a good scoring bench 2 than we got a chance next year.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#130 » by skywalker33 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:05 am

Interesting plan, I like both Troy and Beal could be a very dynamic move, though one I can’t see Connelly seeing thru. I am also hopeful MPJ is going to be offensively closer to Beals output next year than most think. The wonder comes with how much his defense will improve
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#131 » by THE J0KER » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:36 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:If the lottery winner wants to do #1 for MPJ would you consider it?

(Phoenix fan asking)
Maybe some other draft, but not this draft for sure:

- With deleted NCAA season all picks are bigger gamble than usual, so the chances of another Fultz, Wiggins, Bennett, Bargnani, Kwame... will happen is also higher than usual.

- SF spot is what we need the most right now while 2020 #1 pick is considered to be guard, eventually center, where we already have two max-contract level players in Murray and Jokic.

BTW MPJ 6 threes yesterday are one of best 3pt achievements ever for rookies, but Miami rookie Duncan Robinson beat it already today with 7 threes :banghead:
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#132 » by THE J0KER » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:49 am

The Rebel wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
I would if that was all that was in the deal.


Can I inquire who you would think you'd select ?? Edwards ...Wiseman..??


Whoever the Wizards want. This year I have paid basically no attention to the college guys, so I would flip the pick to the Wizards along with Harris, Barton, Bol, and the HOuston pick for Beal, Troy Brown JR, and a 2nd round pick.

I love Porter Jr's potential, I think he can be a great player in this league, but he has a long way to go. Beal is ready to be the 2nd star on a championship team right now. This moves Murray to the 3rd option and gives us a defensive 3, if we resign Grant, use the MLE for a backup 4/5 and trade Morris for a good scoring bench 2 than we got a chance next year.

It is a legit strategy "TITLE NOW", but for the small-market franchise, it is very risky to give such max-contract worthy rookie for an all-star with just two seasons guarantee. Denver is not Los Angeles, so once Davis or George comes they know he will stay to re-sign with over 90% chances, so you trade guys like Ingram or SGA under a rookie contract without thinking or regrets. But Porter will stay in Denver until 2026 if WE want, unlike Beal which will stay in Denver after 2022 only if HE wants.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#133 » by The Rebel » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:44 am

skywalker33 wrote:Interesting plan, I like both Troy and Beal could be a very dynamic move, though one I can’t see Connelly seeing thru. I am also hopeful MPJ is going to be offensively closer to Beals output next year than most think. The wonder comes with how much his defense will improve


While Connelly has certainly been risk adverse, I think even he must admit it is time we either go all in or the wheels could be coming off. It looks like this team is regressing, we are having injury issues, our depth is terrible everywhere but PG and PF, Millsap is about done, he is going to be forced to either restructure the entire supporting cast or make a move and try to improve our stars and getting a couple of key role players. Tim Connelly has now had 7 years as GM/ VP in charge of operations which is a long time for the league as a whole if you do not build a contender, and considerably longer than any other GM in Nuggets history since Stan Kroenke bought the team. I hope he does not panic and make another stupid move, but it is hard to argue that Connelly has done a whole lot good in the last 2 years.

My problem with MPJ isn't his offense, as a young guy he will have some good and some bad nights shooting, the problem is his lack of defense. I think he has the potential to be a solid defender, but he is a long way from that right now and his lapses on defense will continue to be exploited until he gets there. We have a solid superstar, a great 3rd star, a good 4th starter, we need a defensive specialist and a 2nd star who can be leading scorer and plays at least average defense. I also think if you get Beal, than this team becomes much more attractive to free agents who will come fill out the bench. If I had faith that Harris would be healthy from here on out than I would say keep MPJ and Harris, we may as well take the chance now though as I have little faith left in this team ever being healthy again.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#134 » by The Rebel » Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:08 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
Can I inquire who you would think you'd select ?? Edwards ...Wiseman..??


Whoever the Wizards want. This year I have paid basically no attention to the college guys, so I would flip the pick to the Wizards along with Harris, Barton, Bol, and the HOuston pick for Beal, Troy Brown JR, and a 2nd round pick.

I love Porter Jr's potential, I think he can be a great player in this league, but he has a long way to go. Beal is ready to be the 2nd star on a championship team right now. This moves Murray to the 3rd option and gives us a defensive 3, if we resign Grant, use the MLE for a backup 4/5 and trade Morris for a good scoring bench 2 than we got a chance next year.

It is a legit strategy "TITLE NOW", but for the small-market franchise, it is very risky to give such max-contract worthy rookie for an all-star with just two seasons guarantee. Denver is not Los Angeles, so once Davis or George comes they know he will stay to re-sign with over 90% chances, so you trade guys like Ingram or SGA under a rookie contract without thinking or regrets. But Porter will stay in Denver until 2026 if WE want, unlike Beal which will stay in Denver after 2022 only if HE wants.


Beal is under contract for 4 more years, which is longer than everybody on the roster outside of Murray.

It was 7 years ago that Dwight Howard walked away from the Lakers, at the time he was considered the best C in basketball and while coming off a back injury he got a max contract and forced his way to Houston.

Porzingis just forced his way from the Knicks to the Mavs last year.

Butler forced his way off the Bulls just a few years ago as well.

Those are the premier franchises in the top 3 markets in the country. Guys want to play for coaches they like and they want to win as much if not more than they want to play in big markets.

It is also untrue that you control rookies for a long time, MPJ can literally decide he wants a trade and in today's NBA you pretty much have to trade him. Beasley basically forced a trade from the Nuggets this year, Porzingis forced a trade a year ago, Paul George signed a max deal and forced a trade a year later, players run things in the NBA. They decide who they play for, and trying to fight it ends up just creating drama and no ability to attract free agents.

Many of us Nuggets fans are long suffering fans, some of us on this board watched the high potential Nuggets of the 80s wait to develop guys only to have drug issues and injuries derail the team in what should have been multiple finals runs, than in the mid 90s just as we had developed some young talent our ownership went broke and we lost our superstar and dumped salary, in the late 90 early 00s it was injuries again, in the mid 00s injuries again and Kroenke getting cheap. Even the Lawson/Gallo/Chandler teams were derailed due to alcohol and injuries. Right now I see a team missing the guys who were starting at SG and SF due to injuries after 2 years of being in and out for injuries, a PF that is becoming washed, a high potential rookie with plenty of injury issues, and 2 stars trying to carry the load. If I can turn that young rookie into a true number scorer in his prime, and take a shot I am all for it. At this rate we can lose Jokic in 3 years, It will likely take 2 years for Porter and Bol to both even start to reach their true potential. Sorry but I would gladly take a shot with 3 true stars in or going into their prime now while we have a chance.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#135 » by THE J0KER » Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:25 pm

Of course, in a perfect world, peak-Beal which will bring Nuggets "winning now" long-awaited narrative is worthy swap. But as I pointed, Beal has a player option already in 2022, while we can use MPJ until 2026 (or 2027 with the 5-year deal).

Talking about re-signing, foreigners are more loyal in general, because they don't have a perception about different parts of the USA like domestic USA players. Look at San Antonio Big-3 (Duncan is American but from the Virgin Islands) which stays loyal to Spurs for decades while Kawhi uses the first opportunity to leave the team. Or for example, in two other Texas teams, Dallas and Houston big foreign stars Nowitzki, Hakeem, and Ming never wanted to leave... etc... So I'm confident about Jokic and Murray will resign if the team wants. I notice Danilo Gallinari always talks very positively about his Denver experience, and he is the player which played in NYC and LA both.

I'm a big Denver fan only since Nikola Jokic arrived, but I follow the NBA much longer, and I can't remember any player of MPJ talent level which career is ruined with injuries. There are several very physical bigs (centers and forward-centers) which are really damaged (Camby, Hilario, Martin, McDyess...), but that is a completely different type of players compared to the pure shooter and scorer MPJ, type of the players which tends to have a prolonged career (like Anthony for example). If MPJ back injury is solved, I don't worry about his health anymore. And such talents don't need too much time for development, just like in Murray, Jokic, Carmelo... cases, two or three years are enough for (near) all-star level (next already, or 2021-22 season).
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#136 » by NuggetsWY » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:40 pm

THE J0KER wrote:I can't remember any player of MPJ talent level which career is ruined with injuries.

"MPJ talent level" can be hard to determine, but here's some I can think of.
Portland has had three high draft bigs that were total flops DUE TO injury:
#1 1972 LaRue Martin
#2 1984 Sam Bowie
#1 2007 Greg Oden

Others that were draft busts due to injury would include
#3 2006 Adam Morrison
I'm stuck here, but I'll think of some more after I press ENTER :lol:

Career ruining injuries should probably include (some had decent careers but were limited by injuries to never achieve their expected potential and there are many, many more):
Maurice Stokes - probably the most tragic case in many respects (and no, I didn't watch that game, but I was alive :lol: just very young and we only got about 10 NBA games a year on TV where we lived - but I heard about this one during the first 20 years of my life - over and over and over)
Bill Walton
Derrick Rose
Grant Hill
Brandon Roy
Brad Daugherty
TJ Ford
Shaun Livingston

Honorable mention to Bobby Hurley for career ending injuries due to an automobile accident and Jay Williams for career ending injuries due to a motorcycle accident.

Career ending injuries were far more common "way back then" because medicine has learned so that these days what used to be career ending can be just "career limiting" or even "not too big a deal".
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#137 » by The Rebel » Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:53 am

THE J0KER wrote:Of course, in a perfect world, peak-Beal which will bring Nuggets "winning now" long-awaited narrative is worthy swap. But as I pointed, Beal has a player option already in 2022, while we can use MPJ until 2026 (or 2027 with the 5-year deal).


As I pointed out that in today's NBA contracts mean nothing, I gave you multiple examples of guys who are have forced trades just in the last few years. There is no team control for the bigger name stars.
THE J0KER wrote:Talking about re-signing, foreigners are more loyal in general, because they don't have a perception about different parts of the USA like domestic USA players. Look at San Antonio Big-3 (Duncan is American but from the Virgin Islands) which stays loyal to Spurs for decades while Kawhi uses the first opportunity to leave the team. Or for example, in two other Texas teams, Dallas and Houston big foreign stars Nowitzki, Hakeem, and Ming never wanted to leave... etc... So I'm confident about Jokic and Murray will resign if the team wants. I notice Danilo Gallinari always talks very positively about his Denver experience, and he is the player which played in NYC and LA both.


US players used to be loyal as well, but if your team is not winning guys are not going to stick around. There is too much money to gain from advertising and such, and the Nuggets already don't get enough coverage/.
THE J0KER wrote:I'm a big Denver fan only since Nikola Jokic arrived, but I follow the NBA much longer, and I can't remember any player of MPJ talent level which career is ruined with injuries. There are several very physical bigs (centers and forward-centers) which are really damaged (Camby, Hilario, Martin, McDyess...), but that is a completely different type of players compared to the pure shooter and scorer MPJ, type of the players which tends to have a prolonged career (like Anthony for example). If MPJ back injury is solved, I don't worry about his health anymore. And such talents don't need too much time for development, just like in Murray, Jokic, Carmelo... cases, two or three years are enough for (near) all-star level (next already, or 2021-22 season).


NuggetsWY already gave you a list, and I could add a couple off the top of my head, including Grant Hill who many felt would be the best player in the game after his rookie season. Also you significantly underrate McDyess, he was a 21 and 12 PF with very very good defense who made the 3rd team all NBA over Tim Duncan and with Kevin Garnett the year before got injured when he was just 24 years old. He was every bit of a potential franchise type player and he showed it by still being a productive player after losing all of his athleticism.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#138 » by THE J0KER » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:59 am

The Rebel wrote: in the late 90 early 00s it was injuries again, in the mid 00s injuries again and Kroenke getting cheap. Even the Lawson/Gallo/Chandler teams were derailed due to alcohol and injuries. Right now I see a team missing the guys who were starting at SG and SF due to injuries after 2 years of being in and out for injuries, a PF that is becoming washed, a high potential rookie with plenty of injury issues, and 2 stars trying to carry the load.

THE J0KER wrote:I'm a big Denver fan only since Nikola Jokic arrived, but I follow the NBA much longer, and I can't remember any player of MPJ talent level which career is ruined with injuries. There are several very physical bigs (centers and forward-centers) which are really damaged (Camby, Hilario, Martin, McDyess...), but that is a completely different type of players compared to the pure shooter and scorer MPJ, type of the players which tends to have a prolonged career (like Anthony for example).

Rebel talked about Denver Nuggets history, and that we losing guys like MPJ due injuries again and again, and I (correctly) note that actually there is no such example in Denver of elite talent, except for couple physical Denver's big guys which I noted, not that in the entire history of NBA it never happens (why would I say something that naive anyway?).

The Rebel wrote:As I pointed out that in today's NBA contracts mean nothing, I gave you multiple examples of guys who are have forced trades just in the last few years. There is no team control for the bigger name stars.

From the front office and the team's perspective contract is everything. Are you really serious when you trying to prove that contract which gives the player the opportunity to be free already in 2022 is *almost the same* with a contract where the player is under team control until 2026? Examples that you give are all just "the exception that proves the rule" cases. If Knicks really see their future with KP as their max-contract player they would sign him on time not calculate with his ACL injury and openly negotiate with other teams. Butler went after 6 years when the franchise decided to start the rebuilding process. Dwight Howard played 8 opening seasons of his career for the team which drafted him and he didn't resign with Lakers after one single season playing there many thanks to the fact that this season was a huge disappointment for the team and for him both.

But even if MPJ at some point wanted to go before 2026 and his price was max-contract, the team can get many assets back in such cases, unlike for player which is free already in 2022.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#139 » by The Rebel » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:48 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote: in the late 90 early 00s it was injuries again, in the mid 00s injuries again and Kroenke getting cheap. Even the Lawson/Gallo/Chandler teams were derailed due to alcohol and injuries. Right now I see a team missing the guys who were starting at SG and SF due to injuries after 2 years of being in and out for injuries, a PF that is becoming washed, a high potential rookie with plenty of injury issues, and 2 stars trying to carry the load.

THE J0KER wrote:I'm a big Denver fan only since Nikola Jokic arrived, but I follow the NBA much longer, and I can't remember any player of MPJ talent level which career is ruined with injuries. There are several very physical bigs (centers and forward-centers) which are really damaged (Camby, Hilario, Martin, McDyess...), but that is a completely different type of players compared to the pure shooter and scorer MPJ, type of the players which tends to have a prolonged career (like Anthony for example).

Rebel talked about Denver Nuggets history, and that we losing guys like MPJ due injuries again and again, and I (correctly) note that actually there is no such example in Denver of elite talent, except for couple physical Denver's big guys which I noted, not that in the entire history of NBA it never happens (why would I say something that naive anyway?).


Reread what I wrote, I said the team had injury problems, and we have a history of injury problems Especially to superstar quality guys.

Your did not specify the Nuggets, but if you want to play that game we can. Look up David Thompson, who was arguably the best player in the ABA even over Dr J, Thompson had a major injury and turned to drugs ruining his career.

Look up Fat Lever, who was a triple double machine that was on the all defensive team before getting injured.

Take a look into Laphonso Ellis who put up 22 and 7 after having missed almost a full year due to knee injuries which he never recovered his athleticism from.

I already explained why you are wrong on McDyess.

Let's talk about Nene he dominated the junior world championships over the US bigs, the combine that everybody was raving about Oden's performance was actually not as good as Nene. Nene came to the US not knowing any english, and was just starting to develop when he got injured the 1st time in 2004, he missed his next season when injured the 1st game of the year and was never the same. I am sure that he never had a chance to be a great though, after all he only put up 14 and 7 despite losing his athleticism and speed.

If you want to claim that you have followed the NBA for a long time and consider yourself a Nuggets fan, maybe you should learn about the Nugget's history. INcluding the 1985 Western Conference finals when we blew out the Lakers in game 2 and were way up at half time of game 3, only to have English and Lever both get injured? Of do some research on what happened to the team in the mid 90s. I would not expect you to go back to the ABA days, but it may shock you.

As for your insinuation that only the stars matter for a team's success, I will not even bother to argue with you on that. Anybody who understands basketball knows that if you do not have the right quality rotation guys than your star ain't winning ****. As shown by the Suns, Twolves, Kings, and all the other teams throughout the history of the league that had a star player but could not win ****. We also know that in the NBA you have a salary cap, and if you have a starting quality player missing than that is a huge problem for team building.

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:As I pointed out that in today's NBA contracts mean nothing, I gave you multiple examples of guys who are have forced trades just in the last few years. There is no team control for the bigger name stars.

From the front office and the team's perspective contract is everything. Are you really serious when you trying to prove that contract which gives the player the opportunity to be free already in 2022 is *almost the same* with a contract where the player is under team control until 2026? Examples that you give are all just "the exception that proves the rule" cases. If Knicks really see their future with KP as their max-contract player they would sign him on time not calculate with his ACL injury and openly negotiate with other teams. Butler went after 6 years when the franchise decided to start the rebuilding process. Dwight Howard played 8 opening seasons of his career for the team which drafted him and he didn't resign with Lakers after one single season playing there many thanks to the fact that this season was a huge disappointment for the team and for him both.

But even if MPJ at some point wanted to go before 2026 and his price was max-contract, the team can get many assets back in such cases, unlike for player which is free already in 2022.


MPJ is a free agent in 2 years, restricted or not, teams do not get a whole lot when a guy refuses to re-sign. The biggest package I can remember for a sign and trade was 2 1sts and that was for Lebron James.

MPJ is not a guarantee as much as you seem to think, he is far from a guarantee which is why we have him. I would gladly trade the chance at a franchise player to trade for a franchise player every single day of the year.
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Re: Michael Porter Jr 

Post#140 » by skywalker33 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:07 pm

THE J0KER wrote:I'm a big Denver fan only since Nikola Jokic arrived, but I follow the NBA much longer, and I can't remember any player of MPJ talent level which career is ruined with injuries. There are several very physical bigs (centers and forward-centers) which are really damaged (Camby, Hilario, Martin, McDyess...), but that is a completely different type of players compared to the pure shooter and scorer MPJ, type of the players which tends to have a prolonged career (like Anthony for example).
Rebel talked about Denver Nuggets history, and that we losing guys like MPJ due injuries again and again, and I (correctly) note that actually there is no such example in Denver of elite talent, except for couple physical Denver's big guys which I noted, not that in the entire history of NBA it never happens (why would I say something that naive anyway?).


Guess you are a neophyte with Denver Nuggets history, Alex English was the leading scorer of the entire decade of the entire NBA in 80's, I'd consider that elite, Carmelo seems like the most recent comparison as you mentioned. Funny, in hockey if someone messes with your stars they have an enforcer type send a message, not so in the NBA. Always considered Millsap as our tough guy but his game has regressed too much IMO.
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