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[Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension

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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#21 » by TunaFish » Tue Jul 2, 2019 6:49 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:I have known they would max Murray for at least a year, so it was no surprise, I was just hoping they would wait until next offseason and try to add the biggest free agent they could get with the cap space. This kills that idea, but I can understand their reasoning in doing the deal now.
I can't see any reason for this early paying, except in making already an alibi for not doing anything this summer and next summer too.

Back in 2006 young all-star and Nuggets franchise player Carmelo Anthony was already a big star, and there are toxic rumors around about his future, so signing him a year early seems legit move. Two years ago Jokic is already a franchise player and all-star level too, but no reasons to rush things, so even in Jokic case we didn't do this (with a reason!). Most established (already all-star) player of Murray class is Ben Simmons, his powerful agent make pressure on Sixers to sign 5y max already this week, but Sixers FO was busy that day signing two other max deals which really can't wait. Pascal Siakam is the 2nd best player of NBA champions, and most probably the best since next week after Kawhi goes, but Masai Ujiri does not hurry anywhere.


Murray's extension begins at the end of next season so it makes little difference doing the extension now or at the end of the season. If they could not find a free agent to bring in now, then they just decided to keep Millsap and that Murray needs to be paid based on his current impact. Murray's salary is locked in for the next 6 years (next year plus the extension). What we don't know is weather this is a a max based on percentage of cap or a straight salary amount set for each season. I am guessing the later but we should know after July 6th.

It was all about whether they would let Millsap go and have the space to make a move. Next season Millsap and Plumlee are expiring.

Next up will be Morris, Beasley and Hernangomez and that can wait. They are just insuring that their core is in place for the foreseeable future.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#22 » by skywalker33 » Tue Jul 2, 2019 7:12 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:I can't see any reason for this early paying, except in making already an alibi for not doing anything this summer and next summer too.


Wow, aren't YOU the guy who continues to slam down our throats that we're a SMALL MARKET TEAM ?? Well, this is what small market teams do, they lock up their home-grown talent as soon as they can. It's also a great example to other players that we're willing to provide them a long-term home, make it desirable to be a part of the Nuggets.

While a concur this could've waited giving us some cap flexibility, the FO appears to like THIS team as it is continuing to build within. And the chemistry we're building on a team that was seeded #2 in the West last year,that isn't a bad thing in my opinion. So much movement throughout the NBA, sometimes change doesn't always make a team better.

So which is it: we're a small market team who should live within our limits or we're a small market team who needs to try and compete with the big boys at whatever the cost ??
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#23 » by TunaFish » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:46 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:I can't see any reason for this early paying, except in making already an alibi for not doing anything this summer and next summer too.


Wow, aren't YOU the guy who continues to slam down our throats that we're a SMALL MARKET TEAM ?? Well, this is what small market teams do, they lock up their home-grown talent as soon as they can. It's also a great example to other players that we're willing to provide them a long-term home, make it desirable to be a part of the Nuggets.

While a concur this could've waited giving us some cap flexibility, the FO appears to like THIS team as it is continuing to build within. And the chemistry we're building on a team that was seeded #2 in the West last year,that isn't a bad thing in my opinion. So much movement throughout the NBA, sometimes change doesn't always make a team better.

So which is it: we're a small market team who should live within our limits or we're a small market team who needs to try and compete with the big boys at whatever the cost ??


This concept is catching fire. Ben Simmons is about to get a similar contract and came out of the same draft as Murray, also with a year left on his rookie contract. Anybody else out of the 2016 NBA draft going to get a max right now?

There is some kind of a statement being made.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#24 » by THE J0KER » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:10 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:I can't see any reason for this early paying, except in making already an alibi for not doing anything this summer and next summer too.


Wow, aren't YOU the guy who continues to slam down our throats that we're a SMALL MARKET TEAM ?? Well, this is what small market teams do, they lock up their home-grown talent as soon as they can. It's also a great example to other players that we're willing to provide them a long-term home, make it desirable to be a part of the Nuggets.

While a concur this could've waited giving us some cap flexibility, the FO appears to like THIS team as it is continuing to build within. And the chemistry we're building on a team that was seeded #2 in the West last year,that isn't a bad thing in my opinion. So much movement throughout the NBA, sometimes change doesn't always make a team better.

So which is it: we're a small market team who should live within our limits or we're a small market team who needs to try and compete with the big boys at whatever the cost ??
As I said, it really makes sense in Carmelo Anthony case, back in 2006, when he was big star already, and we would offer him max deal anyway even if ACL happens during his contract season. Look at Porzingis case, he was a sure bet for NYK max contract and already all-star when ACL happens, and they gave-up from him as a max player despite he would be ready to play since the first week of a new contract. Sorry for I'm being a little bit morbid for talking about this, but if ACL happens to Jamal this season, his market value would not be more than 100/4 next summer (note that he would miss first of these 4 seasons)! Not to mention Minnesota mistake with signing year early with Wiggins. If you think it is a good idea to sign max player year early, why you are not asked for it in Jokic case before the 2018 summer deadline? Jokic is my favorite player in Denver and in the league by far, he was on a higher level that year than Murray now, but I also didn't ask for the year early max-contract sign, because from the team perspective it was not necessary like in Melo 2006 case exception.

TunaFish wrote:This concept is catching fire. Ben Simmons is about to get a similar contract and came out of the same draft as Murray, also with a year left on his rookie contract. Anybody else out of the 2016 NBA draft going to get a max right now?

There is some kind of a statement being made.
Simmons case actually has more sense because of Sixers already signed max deals with Embiid, T.Harris, and Horford, so they already done everything which they can do with their salary cap, so there is no difference when they will sign with Simmons. Also, Ben Simmons is already established all-star player, so he is a big asset under 5y max contract, while Murray still needs to prove he is that worthy.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#25 » by Alatan » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:30 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
Alatan wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:Sorry Alantan but Shams is reporting the Denver Nuggets have agree to a max extension with rising star Jamal Murray for 5yrs and $170M

Good move from the FO, now all we'll have to worry about is signing Beasley and Juancho (?)


Currently he is maybe worth half of that contract. Has a long way to go to justify this move.
Hope he proves me wrong, but i still want to trade him for Jrue. 8-)


Dude, you say he has a long way to go to justify it (to you ??) yet the guy you want to trade him for wasn't nearly the player Murray is at the same age. Jrue in his 3rd year was averaging 13.5/4.5/3.3 compared to Jamal's 18.5/4.8/4.2 ...just sayin' :D


I dont care what Jrue was averaging at the same age. Jrue is a two way all around player who didnt play next to an all NBA playmaker giving gim easy looks. Murray is a nice offensive player but thats about it. He is not a consistent threat from 3 point range, he is not good at creating his own shot, he is not good at dribble penetration, he is not a good primary ball handler is not a good playmaker and he is not a great finisher. Thats all without mentioning his awful defense. As i said he is an above average starter in the likes of Eric Gordon or Bojan Bogdanovic and maybe he improves and becomes a borderline allstar or even a lower tier allstar but the guy is CLEARLY not worth nowhere near the max.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#26 » by skywalker33 » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:37 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:


Wow, aren't YOU the guy who continues to slam down our throats that we're a SMALL MARKET TEAM ?? Well, this is what small market teams do, they lock up their home-grown talent as soon as they can. It's also a great example to other players that we're willing to provide them a long-term home, make it desirable to be a part of the Nuggets.

While a concur this could've waited giving us some cap flexibility, the FO appears to like THIS team as it is continuing to build within. And the chemistry we're building on a team that was seeded #2 in the West last year,that isn't a bad thing in my opinion. So much movement throughout the NBA, sometimes change doesn't always make a team better.

So which is it: we're a small market team who should live within our limits or we're a small market team who needs to try and compete with the big boys at whatever the cost ??
As I said, it really makes sense in Carmelo Anthony case, back in 2006, when he was big star already, and we would offer him max deal anyway even if ACL happens during his contract season. Look at Porzingis case, he was a sure bet for NYK max contract and already all-star when ACL happens, and they gave-up from him as a max player despite he would be ready to play since the first week of a new contract. Sorry for I'm being a little bit morbid for talking about this, but if ACL happens to Jamal this season, his market value would not be more than 100/4 next summer (note that he would miss first of these 4 seasons)! Not to mention Minnesota mistake with signing year early with Wiggins. If you think it is a good idea to sign max player year early, why you are not asked for it in Jokic case before the 2018 summer deadline? Jokic is my favorite player in Denver and in the league by far, he was on a higher level that year than Murray now, but I also didn't ask for the year early max-contract sign, because from the team perspective it was not necessary like in Melo 2006 case exception.


Well you do remember we DID sign Jokic early so he didn't reach free agency, a similar endeavor here. Granted Murray would've been a RFA but why allow another potential suitor dictate term for our teams contracts ??
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#27 » by THE J0KER » Tue Jul 2, 2019 10:30 pm

skywalker33 wrote:Well you do remember we DID sign Jokic early so he didn't reach free agency, a similar endeavor here. Granted Murray would've been a RFA but why allow another potential suitor dictate term for our teams contracts ??

Nikola Jokic was drafted in 2014, and on Jully 1st of 2018, he agrees on 5y max deal which started since the 2018-19 season.

Jamal Murray was drafted in 2016, and on Jully 1st of 2019, he agrees on 5y max deal which will start since the 2020-21 season.

Can you see the difference, and what it means "we unnecessary signed him a year early"?
And I'm never opposing this price, just timing. Murray is a max-contract worthy player, especially from small market teams perspective.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#28 » by TunaFish » Tue Jul 2, 2019 10:54 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:Well you do remember we DID sign Jokic early so he didn't reach free agency, a similar endeavor here. Granted Murray would've been a RFA but why allow another potential suitor dictate term for our teams contracts ??

Nikola Jokic was drafted in 2014, and on Jully 1st of 2018, he agrees on 5y max deal which started since the 2018-19 season.

Jamal Murray was drafted in 2016, and on Jully 1st of 2019, he agrees on 5y max deal which will start since the 2020-21 season.

Can you see the difference, and what it means "we unnecessary signed him a year early"?
And I'm never opposing this price, just timing. Murray is a max-contract worthy player, especially from small market teams perspective.


You think TC is a fool. He knows he signed him before he had to. What is "unnecessary" to you may have been necessary to him.

Same exact discussion is going on in Philadelphia who did the same thing with Simmons. Both GM's are making a statement. Both of these contracts are extensions leaving next year's salary the same. Both go to max or near max at the same time.

There is some reasoning going on here but it may be counter-intuitive to rest of the world.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#29 » by skywalker33 » Tue Jul 2, 2019 11:00 pm

Alatan wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
Alatan wrote:
Currently he is maybe worth half of that contract. Has a long way to go to justify this move.
Hope he proves me wrong, but i still want to trade him for Jrue. 8-)


Dude, you say he has a long way to go to justify it (to you ??) yet the guy you want to trade him for wasn't nearly the player Murray is at the same age. Jrue in his 3rd year was averaging 13.5/4.5/3.3 compared to Jamal's 18.5/4.8/4.2 ...just sayin' :D


I dont care what Jrue was averaging at the same age. Jrue is a two way all around player who didnt play next to an all NBA playmaker giving gim easy looks. Murray is a nice offensive player but thats about it. He is not a consistent threat from 3 point range, he is not good at creating his own shot, he is not good at dribble penetration, he is not a good primary ball handler is not a good playmaker and he is not a great finisher. Thats all without mentioning his awful defense. As i said he is an above average starter in the likes of Eric Gordon or Bojan Bogdanovic and maybe he improves and becomes a borderline allstar or even a lower tier allstar but the guy is CLEARLY not worth nowhere near the max.


Jrue did play with one of the top 3 players in the league though and still couldn't get them into the playoffs, I'll take the guy that could.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#30 » by Alatan » Tue Jul 2, 2019 11:03 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
Alatan wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
Dude, you say he has a long way to go to justify it (to you ??) yet the guy you want to trade him for wasn't nearly the player Murray is at the same age. Jrue in his 3rd year was averaging 13.5/4.5/3.3 compared to Jamal's 18.5/4.8/4.2 ...just sayin' :D


I dont care what Jrue was averaging at the same age. Jrue is a two way all around player who didnt play next to an all NBA playmaker giving gim easy looks. Murray is a nice offensive player but thats about it. He is not a consistent threat from 3 point range, he is not good at creating his own shot, he is not good at dribble penetration, he is not a good primary ball handler is not a good playmaker and he is not a great finisher. Thats all without mentioning his awful defense. As i said he is an above average starter in the likes of Eric Gordon or Bojan Bogdanovic and maybe he improves and becomes a borderline allstar or even a lower tier allstar but the guy is CLEARLY not worth nowhere near the max.


Jrue did play with one of the top 3 players in the league though and still couldn't get them into the playoffs, I'll take the guy that could.


Murray didnt get anyone into playoffs. But i agree that Jokic is awesome.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#31 » by THE J0KER » Tue Jul 2, 2019 11:08 pm

TunaFish wrote: Same exact discussion is going on in Philadelphia who did the same thing with Simmons. Both GM's are making a statement. Both of these contracts are extensions leaving next year's salary the same. Both go to max or near max at the same time.
But there are two bold differences between these two cases. Sixers already have 3 max players (4 with Simmons), so they don't need any kind of cap flexibility in next 12 months, because they are done with all deals anyway. Also, Simmons is already established all-star player (unlike Murray) and even big injury (as ACL) would not change anything in his eventual market "max" price next summer.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#32 » by TunaFish » Tue Jul 2, 2019 11:29 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
TunaFish wrote: Same exact discussion is going on in Philadelphia who did the same thing with Simmons. Both GM's are making a statement. Both of these contracts are extensions leaving next year's salary the same. Both go to max or near max at the same time.
But there are two bold differences between these two cases. Sixers already have 3 max players (4 with Simmons), so they don't need any kind of cap flexibility in next 12 months, because they are done with all deals anyway. Also, Simmons is already established all-star player (unlike Murray) and even big injury (as ACL) would not change anything in his eventual market "max" price next summer.


Simmons is a flawed (shooting) a player as Murray (defense). Both teams could have waited until the end of the season to make these moves without changing anything available to them. What ever advantage you think Denver would have, so would Philly. It makes no difference at all.

What makes a difference is how bold an action TC took by moving on this early. You think Murray isn't pleased.

And then the next max contract happens with Philly and Simmons who just happen to be in the same draft class. Since they don't have to make the same early commitment then why? Because they are done? I don't think so.

How often do teams extend players early on rookie contracts?
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#33 » by THE J0KER » Tue Jul 2, 2019 11:57 pm

TunaFish wrote:How often do teams extend players early on rookie contracts?

It is very rare, I think Murray is just 2nd in Nuggets history (after Anthony).

BTW when Porzingins was still in Knicks, their front office explained that they will wait until last day to re-sign KP max deal, because they planned to spend whole their cap on free agents (Durant...etc) and then sign KP. Such things have no sense in Sixers case once they signed T.Harris and Horford max deals two days ago, so waiting with Simmons contract or not will not make any difference. But in Denver case, in theory, if we wanted to buy something notable next summer on the FA market, it would be helpful for not signing already. But that is just theory, Nuggets are obviously not interested in the FA market.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#34 » by TunaFish » Wed Jul 3, 2019 12:14 am

THE J0KER wrote:
TunaFish wrote:How often do teams extend players early on rookie contracts?

It is very rare, I think Murray is just 2nd in Nuggets history (after Anthony).

BTW when Porzingins was still in Knicks, their front office explained that they will wait until last day to re-sign KP max deal, because they planned to spend whole their cap on free agents (Durant...etc) and then sign KP. Such things have no sense in Sixers case once they signed T.Harris and Horford max deals two days ago, so waiting with Simmons contract or not will not make any difference. But in Denver case, in theory, if we wanted to buy something notable next summer on the FA market, it would be helpful for not signing already. But that is just theory, Nuggets are obviously not interested in the FA market.


I think you are wrong on Anthony because he had a QO before he signed his extension under the 3 year rookie contracts (under the old CBA). We are talking about players on a rookie deal being extended. This is out of the ordinary on purpose.

Some reporter is going to ask him about this. He will have a canned answer that will sound good to Murray.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#35 » by skywalker33 » Wed Jul 3, 2019 12:34 am

Alatan wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
Alatan wrote:
I dont care what Jrue was averaging at the same age. Jrue is a two way all around player who didnt play next to an all NBA playmaker giving gim easy looks. Murray is a nice offensive player but thats about it. He is not a consistent threat from 3 point range, he is not good at creating his own shot, he is not good at dribble penetration, he is not a good primary ball handler is not a good playmaker and he is not a great finisher. Thats all without mentioning his awful defense. As i said he is an above average starter in the likes of Eric Gordon or Bojan Bogdanovic and maybe he improves and becomes a borderline allstar or even a lower tier allstar but the guy is CLEARLY not worth nowhere near the max.


Jrue did play with one of the top 3 players in the league though and still couldn't get them into the playoffs, I'll take the guy that could.


Murray didnt get anyone into playoffs. But i agree that Jokic is awesome.


Really ??? Murray had nothing to do with the Nuggets getting into the playoffs....riiiggghhhht :banghead: :banghead: :roll:
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#36 » by NuggetsWY » Wed Jul 3, 2019 5:01 am

skywalker33 wrote:
Alatan wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
Jrue did play with one of the top 3 players in the league though and still couldn't get them into the playoffs, I'll take the guy that could.

Murray didnt get anyone into playoffs. But i agree that Jokic is awesome.

Really ??? Murray had nothing to do with the Nuggets getting into the playoffs....riiiggghhhht :banghead: :banghead: :roll:
Agreed Sky! The Nuggets gave Murray that contract for a reason and anyone can look at the regular season stats and see his value. Then look at which two players increased their production during the playoffs.

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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#37 » by CanadaUprise » Fri Jul 5, 2019 5:43 am

You guys realize that Murray plays out of position on the nuggets right. He's a pure SG being forced to play PG because of Jokic which hurts his game a lot.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#38 » by THE J0KER » Fri Jul 5, 2019 8:07 am

CanadaUprise wrote:You guys realize that Murray plays out of position on the nuggets right. He's a pure SG being forced to play PG because of Jokic which hurts his game a lot.
Murray is a combo guard, and he learned last season how to suit well in that mixed role. His assists number rise from 3.5 to 5 while Jokic apg grow from 6 to 7.5, and Denver as the team was #2 in the league last season (rise from 25apg to 27.5apg). What I see there is Murray-Jokic synergy, not that one of them must sacrifice something from his best game. Note that in the same time both improved their points per game production last season playing the same minutes, not only assists.

Murray passing skills looks so mediocre for a player playing on point guard position before 2018 All-Star break, but since that moment he started to improve rapidly in that department. Some combo guards like Curry or Irving suit better in that mixed role than to be pure PG or SG, and I think Murray is on the road to be one of them. In general, I agree if Jamal must choose between PG and SG he would better suit in pure SG role, but his current role (point guard by position, but which is not basic team playmaker but shooter) is probably the best for him.

Murray should be focused on improving defense and shooting consistency, and All-Star (level) will be right on the corner.
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#39 » by NuggetsWY » Fri Jul 5, 2019 1:37 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
CanadaUprise wrote:You guys realize that Murray plays out of position on the nuggets right. He's a pure SG being forced to play PG because of Jokic which hurts his game a lot.
Murray is a combo guard, and he learned last season how to suit well in that mixed role. His assists number rise from 3.5 to 5 while Jokic apg grow from 6 to 7.5, and Denver as the team was #2 in the league last season (rise from 25apg to 27.5apg). What I see there is Murray-Jokic synergy, not that one of them must sacrifice something from his best game. Note that in the same time both improved their points per game production last season playing the same minutes, not only assists.

Murray passing skills looks so mediocre for a player playing on point guard position before 2018 All-Star break, but since that moment he started to improve rapidly in that department. Some combo guards like Curry or Irving suit better in that mixed role than to be pure PG or SG, and I think Murray is on the road to be one of them. In general, I agree if Jamal must choose between PG and SG he would better suit in pure SG role, but his current role (point guard by position, but which is not basic team playmaker but shooter) is probably the best for him.

Murray should be focused on improving defense and shooting consistency, and All-Star (level) will be right on the corner.

My understanding is that Murray was always a PG until he got to his one year at Kentucky where they had the very short, pure PG Ulis to play next to. So they called Murray a SG. But prior to that year, he was classified as a PG who led his team in scoring. In the modern game, most PGs tend to be combo guards - think of Steph Curry as the role model. But Murray is not a "pure SG" as CanadaUprise suggests.

In fact, Jokic is Denver's best point player - so that make Murray a combo-guard by default. But then again, Murray isn't the only combo-guard that has someone else playing point. It goes back to Magic playing "point" (and center and whatever else they needed). How about Jordan's Bulls with point-forward Pippen and the modern aforementioned Warriors with Curry as their point guard alongside point-forward Durrant and point-forward Green?

Sorry for the rant, but I get tired of hearing "Murray isn't a point guard".
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Re: [Shams] Murray agrees to 5/$170M extension 

Post#40 » by U hova » Fri Jul 5, 2019 7:34 pm

CanadaUprise wrote:You guys realize that Murray plays out of position on the nuggets right. He's a pure SG being forced to play PG because of Jokic which hurts his game a lot.

I do not think you understand the sentence you just wrote...

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