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Nuggets Trades

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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1321 » by skywalker33 » Fri Jan 8, 2021 1:47 am

The Rebel wrote:
Manolito wrote:After Fultz injury, Orlando might be a good trade destination if they are still willing to compete

Barton + Cancar + unprotected 2021FRP x Gordon.....don´t know if that is enough. I guess ORL will ask for Nnaji or Hampton instead of Cancar

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For the life of me I cannot figure out why Fultz getting injured would make them want a SG/SF? At least give them a backup PG or something.

By the way I would not trade Barton, a prospect (even a bad prospect), and a 1st for Gordon. Gordon is not that much better than Barton, in fact this year it is arguable if Gordon even is better than Barton so far. Which is pretty damn scary to think about.


Barton does (thinks he does) have some PG skills, just sayin'. As for the trade part, I agree
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1322 » by THE J0KER » Fri Jan 8, 2021 2:07 am

The Rebel wrote:
Manolito wrote:After Fultz injury, Orlando might be a good trade destination if they are still willing to compete

Barton + Cancar + unprotected 2021FRP x Gordon.....don´t know if that is enough. I guess ORL will ask for Nnaji or Hampton instead of Cancar

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For the life of me I cannot figure out why Fultz getting injured would make them want a SG/SF? At least give them a backup PG or something.

By the way I would not trade Barton, a prospect (even a bad prospect), and a 1st for Gordon. Gordon is not that much better than Barton, in fact this year it is arguable if Gordon even is better than Barton so far. Which is pretty damn scary to think about.

8 games are a very small sample, but there is no other decline in Gordon's game except his playing time dropped from 33-34 minutes from the past couple of years to just 25 so far this season which explains all his drops in row numbers per game. Gordon actually becomes a more efficient player than ever with a career-best TS% (57%) and defensive rating (DRtg 103). Will Barton's case is quite opposite, with career-worst TS% (46%) and DRtg (115). Small sample but so far clearly Gordon2021>>Barton2021.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1323 » by The Rebel » Fri Jan 8, 2021 2:08 am

skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Manolito wrote:After Fultz injury, Orlando might be a good trade destination if they are still willing to compete

Barton + Cancar + unprotected 2021FRP x Gordon.....don´t know if that is enough. I guess ORL will ask for Nnaji or Hampton instead of Cancar

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For the life of me I cannot figure out why Fultz getting injured would make them want a SG/SF? At least give them a backup PG or something.

By the way I would not trade Barton, a prospect (even a bad prospect), and a 1st for Gordon. Gordon is not that much better than Barton, in fact this year it is arguable if Gordon even is better than Barton so far. Which is pretty damn scary to think about.


Barton does (thinks he does) have some PG skills, just sayin'. As for the trade part, I agree


Don't you have a game to coach Malone?

Just saying the only 2 people that believe Barton is a PG is Barton and coach Malone.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1324 » by The Rebel » Fri Jan 8, 2021 2:40 am

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Manolito wrote:After Fultz injury, Orlando might be a good trade destination if they are still willing to compete

Barton + Cancar + unprotected 2021FRP x Gordon.....don´t know if that is enough. I guess ORL will ask for Nnaji or Hampton instead of Cancar

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For the life of me I cannot figure out why Fultz getting injured would make them want a SG/SF? At least give them a backup PG or something.

By the way I would not trade Barton, a prospect (even a bad prospect), and a 1st for Gordon. Gordon is not that much better than Barton, in fact this year it is arguable if Gordon even is better than Barton so far. Which is pretty damn scary to think about.

8 games are a very small sample, but there is no other decline in Gordon's game except his playing time dropped from 33-34 minutes from the past couple of years to just 25 so far this season which explains all his drops in row numbers per game. Gordon actually becomes a more efficient player than ever with a career-best TS% (57%) and defensive rating (DRtg 103). Will Barton's case is quite opposite, with career-worst TS% (46%) and DRtg (115). Small sample but so far clearly Gordon2021>>Barton2021.


I am assuming you are using basketball reference for your DRTGs? If so you should know that those are notorious for being way off. Also defensive rating is a very team dependent stat, the lineup you are in and the backup you have changes your ratings considerably, but if you want to use that we should go off of nba.com/stats the official stats.

Did you know that Gordon and Barton actually are only .2 different in defensive rating? With Gordon 108.6 and Barton 108.8, but the Magic have a defensive rating of 104.4 and the Nuggets are at 114.9, so Gordon makes his team more than 4 points worse per 100 possessions while Barton makes his team better by over 6 points per 100 possessions, using defensive rating kill you entire argument. Gordon has a net rating of 0.8 while Barton has a net rating of 5.1, with the higher the better Gordon has no argument using defensive or net ratings.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=W&dir=-1
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203115/advanced/
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203932/advanced/

As for Gordon's shooting percentage, there is much more to the game than shooting, and considering Gordon is a known streaky shooter that always starts off the season hot, I am actually disappointed with his low TS%. that is just slightly over average, which is not good for a 3rd option as he has become this year.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1325 » by THE J0KER » Fri Jan 8, 2021 3:10 am

The Rebel wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
For the life of me I cannot figure out why Fultz getting injured would make them want a SG/SF? At least give them a backup PG or something.

By the way I would not trade Barton, a prospect (even a bad prospect), and a 1st for Gordon. Gordon is not that much better than Barton, in fact this year it is arguable if Gordon even is better than Barton so far. Which is pretty damn scary to think about.

8 games are a very small sample, but there is no other decline in Gordon's game except his playing time dropped from 33-34 minutes from the past couple of years to just 25 so far this season which explains all his drops in row numbers per game. Gordon actually becomes a more efficient player than ever with a career-best TS% (57%) and defensive rating (DRtg 103). Will Barton's case is quite opposite, with career-worst TS% (46%) and DRtg (115). Small sample but so far clearly Gordon2021>>Barton2021.


I am assuming you are using basketball reference for your DRTGs? If so you should know that those are notorious for being way off. Also defensive rating is a very team dependent stat, the lineup you are in and the backup you have changes your ratings considerably, but if you want to use that we should go off of nba.com/stats the official stats.

Did you know that Gordon and Barton actually are only .2 different in defensive rating? With Gordon 108.6 and Barton 108.8, but the Magic have a defensive rating of 104.4 and the Nuggets are at 114.9, so Gordon makes his team more than 4 points worse per 100 possessions while Barton makes his team better by over 6 points per 100 possessions, using defensive rating kill you entire argument. Gordon has a net rating of 0.8 while Barton has a net rating of 5.1, with the higher the better Gordon has no argument using defensive or net ratings.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=W&dir=-1
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203115/advanced/
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203932/advanced/

As for Gordon's shooting percentage, there is much more to the game than shooting, and considering Gordon is a known streaky shooter that always starts off the season hot, I am actually disappointed with his low TS%. that is just slightly over average, which is not good for a 3rd option as he has become this year.
Even nba.com gives him 2nd best DEFRTG out of Orlando starters (behind Bacon) so you can't say he has good defensive rating thanks to other players in rotations he is involved because as a starter with 25mpg limited playing time he mostly playing with other starters, and the fact is that Orlando has 4th best while Denver 4th worst defense so far.

Gordon is 14-7-2 (57%TS%) in 25mpg for a team which overperforming so far 6-2.
Barton is 11-5-3 (46%TS%) in 29mpg for a team which underperforming so far 3-4.

Per 36min stats make the case even more obvious: 20-10-3 vs 14-6-4 (+11% gap in TS% stays).

Gordon>>Barton clearly so far this season.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1326 » by skywalker33 » Fri Jan 8, 2021 3:23 am

So, that extra 3pts is worth Cancar, a 2021FRP and an extra $4MM ??
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1327 » by NuggetsWY » Fri Jan 8, 2021 3:29 am

THE J0KER wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:Gordon is averaging 14/7 and is not a defensive slatwart like Grant, not giving all that up for an average overpaid. And realistically, with their need, they aren't dealing from a position of strength IMO

I'd offer Barton + Cancar but not with a 1st and certainly not with Nnaji or Hampton.

No matter what I personally think about Nnaji or Hampton's talent, I would use them to get some good experienced players because no signs Malone will go anytime soon or change his methods. As a basketball fan, I wish we traded Beasley and Juancho a year or two earlier or Nurkic before the start of the 2016-17 season, so they would not waste all these seasons and the Nuggets would get a bigger outcome back. To get Malone's attention and respect under 22 players must show flashes of a future star like Jokic, Murray, or Porter, and young Harris was amazing too at some point when his TS% was close to 60% (and Nuggets are not stacked in 2015 like today). Craig, Morris, and I guess Campazzo get their chances already under rookie contract years, but they started their NBA career when they are already 22+ old.

Look at Boston #26 pick rookie point guard Pritchard. Kemba is injured so Brad Stevens gives him the chance to play some minutes, and if he playing well on a sudden day his playing time goes up, so he already has one 30+ minutes game (Porter didn't have last season before bubble) when he scored 20+ points and yesterday he even has buzzer-beater in such important game for Celtics vs Heat, their opponent in last season ECF! And how many minutes #22 pick PF Nnaji gets so far considering that PF Green didn't play the opening 4 games while Porter was out the next 3?? Just 5 minutes overall, despite a very decent performance during preseason games. How many minutes played PF Bol Bol which was TOP10 contender for the rookie of the year award by bookmakers before the start of this season? He played just 14 minutes overall. To compensate MPJ's and Green PF minutes Malone rather prefers to use even older guards (Barton and Dozier) over young players whose PF is natural positions.

Hartenstein gets some chance to play and he used it very well, but since Green is back his minutes despaired. He will turn 23 in the next 3-4 months so I guess he is in a better position, but still... until Malone is Denver coach we should trade young assets which talent is recognized to get notable veterans which would be actually used.

If Orlando wants to give up from this season because of Isaac and Fultz's injuries and use it to rebuild the team, and Denver's FO finally starts to use the "win now" strategy, or just to not be delusional about Malone, Hampton, Nnaji, and 2021FRP can be very useful assets. For example:

ORLANDO: Barton, Harris, Hampton, Nnaji, Cancar, DEN2021-1st, DEN2025-1st
DENVER: Gordon, Fournier, Ross, ORL2021-2nd, ORL2022-2nd

Mark me as "agreed, but reluctant" concerning trading Nnaji & Hampton - especially Nnaji.
Agree with most of the rest of your thoughts as well.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1328 » by The Rebel » Fri Jan 8, 2021 3:46 am

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:8 games are a very small sample, but there is no other decline in Gordon's game except his playing time dropped from 33-34 minutes from the past couple of years to just 25 so far this season which explains all his drops in row numbers per game. Gordon actually becomes a more efficient player than ever with a career-best TS% (57%) and defensive rating (DRtg 103). Will Barton's case is quite opposite, with career-worst TS% (46%) and DRtg (115). Small sample but so far clearly Gordon2021>>Barton2021.


I am assuming you are using basketball reference for your DRTGs? If so you should know that those are notorious for being way off. Also defensive rating is a very team dependent stat, the lineup you are in and the backup you have changes your ratings considerably, but if you want to use that we should go off of nba.com/stats the official stats.

Did you know that Gordon and Barton actually are only .2 different in defensive rating? With Gordon 108.6 and Barton 108.8, but the Magic have a defensive rating of 104.4 and the Nuggets are at 114.9, so Gordon makes his team more than 4 points worse per 100 possessions while Barton makes his team better by over 6 points per 100 possessions, using defensive rating kill you entire argument. Gordon has a net rating of 0.8 while Barton has a net rating of 5.1, with the higher the better Gordon has no argument using defensive or net ratings.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=W&dir=-1
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203115/advanced/
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203932/advanced/

As for Gordon's shooting percentage, there is much more to the game than shooting, and considering Gordon is a known streaky shooter that always starts off the season hot, I am actually disappointed with his low TS%. that is just slightly over average, which is not good for a 3rd option as he has become this year.
Even nba.com gives him 2nd best DEFRTG out of Orlando starters (behind Bacon) so you can't say he has good defensive rating thanks to other players in rotations he is involved because as a starter with 25mpg limited playing time he mostly playing with other starters, and the fact is that Orlando has 4th best while Denver 4th worst defense so far.

Gordon is 14-7-2 (57%TS%) in 25mpg for a team which overperforming so far 6-2.
Barton is 11-5-3 (46%TS%) in 29mpg for a team which underperforming so far 3-4.

Per 36min stats make the case even more obvious: 20-10-3 vs 14-6-4 (+11% gap in TS% stays).

Gordon>>Barton clearly so far this season.


What are you talk about? Gordon is 11th on the Magic in defensive rating, here is a link.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612753

So no the 11th best player on a borderline playoff team is not worth our 3rd best player, a prospect, and a pick.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1329 » by NuggetsWY » Fri Jan 8, 2021 12:27 pm

The Rebel wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
I am assuming you are using basketball reference for your DRTGs? If so you should know that those are notorious for being way off. Also defensive rating is a very team dependent stat, the lineup you are in and the backup you have changes your ratings considerably, but if you want to use that we should go off of nba.com/stats the official stats.

Did you know that Gordon and Barton actually are only .2 different in defensive rating? With Gordon 108.6 and Barton 108.8, but the Magic have a defensive rating of 104.4 and the Nuggets are at 114.9, so Gordon makes his team more than 4 points worse per 100 possessions while Barton makes his team better by over 6 points per 100 possessions, using defensive rating kill you entire argument. Gordon has a net rating of 0.8 while Barton has a net rating of 5.1, with the higher the better Gordon has no argument using defensive or net ratings.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=W&dir=-1
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203115/advanced/
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203932/advanced/

As for Gordon's shooting percentage, there is much more to the game than shooting, and considering Gordon is a known streaky shooter that always starts off the season hot, I am actually disappointed with his low TS%. that is just slightly over average, which is not good for a 3rd option as he has become this year.
Even nba.com gives him 2nd best DEFRTG out of Orlando starters (behind Bacon) so you can't say he has good defensive rating thanks to other players in rotations he is involved because as a starter with 25mpg limited playing time he mostly playing with other starters, and the fact is that Orlando has 4th best while Denver 4th worst defense so far.

Gordon is 14-7-2 (57%TS%) in 25mpg for a team which overperforming so far 6-2.
Barton is 11-5-3 (46%TS%) in 29mpg for a team which underperforming so far 3-4.

Per 36min stats make the case even more obvious: 20-10-3 vs 14-6-4 (+11% gap in TS% stays).

Gordon>>Barton clearly so far this season.


What are you talk about? Gordon is 11th on the Magic in defensive rating, here is a link.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612753

So no the 11th best player on a borderline playoff team is not worth our 3rd best player, a prospect, and a pick.

... and now I remember why I like the eye-test better :lol: "advanced metrics" drive me nuts :banghead:
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1330 » by Manolito » Fri Jan 8, 2021 1:03 pm

I can't really understand why you have such a high vision of Barton as a player.

Fact is that he is a 30year old selfish player, inconsistent in D, after last two years, injury prone and not the best influence in the locker room.

His trade value is what it is, between zero and negative. He still has some rust or whatever, but he is playing horrible this season. Use eye test or advanced stats.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to acquire a solid starting player for him without adding at least one FRP.

Time will show the evidence

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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1331 » by NuggetsWY » Fri Jan 8, 2021 4:47 pm

Manolito wrote:I can't really understand why you have such a high vision of Barton as a player.

Fact is that he is a 30year old selfish player, inconsistent in D, after last two years, injury prone and not the best influence in the locker room.

His trade value is what it is, between zero and negative. He still has some rust or whatever, but he is playing horrible this season. Use eye test or advanced stats.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to acquire a solid starting player for him without adding at least one FRP.

Time will show the evidence

That is not how he is perceived by many around the league. He does not fit in a Jokic-centric system but he would fit on many teams - in the opinions of many. I'm just not sure how much trade value he has.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1332 » by The Rebel » Fri Jan 8, 2021 7:21 pm

NuggetsWY wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:Even nba.com gives him 2nd best DEFRTG out of Orlando starters (behind Bacon) so you can't say he has good defensive rating thanks to other players in rotations he is involved because as a starter with 25mpg limited playing time he mostly playing with other starters, and the fact is that Orlando has 4th best while Denver 4th worst defense so far.

Gordon is 14-7-2 (57%TS%) in 25mpg for a team which overperforming so far 6-2.
Barton is 11-5-3 (46%TS%) in 29mpg for a team which underperforming so far 3-4.

Per 36min stats make the case even more obvious: 20-10-3 vs 14-6-4 (+11% gap in TS% stays).

Gordon>>Barton clearly so far this season.


What are you talk about? Gordon is 11th on the Magic in defensive rating, here is a link.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612753

So no the 11th best player on a borderline playoff team is not worth our 3rd best player, a prospect, and a pick.

... and now I remember why I like the eye-test better :lol: "advanced metrics" drive me nuts :banghead:


Both are important, but you have to use the right context to get any real meaning.

Defensive and offensive ratings are both heavily dependant on the team and lineups. To compare between different roles on different teams is basically a waste of time.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1333 » by The Rebel » Fri Jan 8, 2021 7:24 pm

Anybody else see Collins and Trea Young are having issues? I still say that is the guy we should've chasing.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1334 » by Mickey8 » Fri Jan 8, 2021 7:59 pm

Denver better chase SG and SF, starting caliber players on those two positions.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1335 » by Richard Miller » Fri Jan 8, 2021 9:00 pm

Mickey8 wrote:Denver better chase SG and SF, starting caliber players on those two positions.


You saw what took to trade for Jrue for example... Nuggets have nothing to offer anywhere near unless they want to include MPJ or Murray (and they don't). Nobody will trade starting caliber players for Gary or Barton.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1336 » by NuggetsWY » Fri Jan 8, 2021 9:07 pm

Richard Miller wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:Denver better chase SG and SF, starting caliber players on those two positions.

You saw what took to trade for Jrue for example... Nuggets have nothing to offer anywhere near unless they want to include MPJ or Murray (and they don't). Nobody will trade starting caliber players for Gary or Barton.

"Starter" doesn't have to mean "Star". If Porter lives up to potential, our SG needs to be a defensive minded player that can hit some 3s - you know, like Gary Harris was (and hopefully returns to). Our SF needs to be a backup quality forward that can defend 2-3-4. That's the way I see it.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1337 » by Richard Miller » Fri Jan 8, 2021 9:53 pm

NuggetsWY wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:Denver better chase SG and SF, starting caliber players on those two positions.

You saw what took to trade for Jrue for example... Nuggets have nothing to offer anywhere near unless they want to include MPJ or Murray (and they don't). Nobody will trade starting caliber players for Gary or Barton.

"Starter" doesn't have to mean "Star". If Porter lives up to potential, our SG needs to be a defensive minded player that can hit some 3s - you know, like Gary Harris was (and hopefully returns to). Our SF needs to be a backup quality forward that can defend 2-3-4. That's the way I see it.


Well, Gary Harris can hit some threes, he was 36.5% in the bubble, so someone similar to that level isn't going to make a big difference.

Dunno, I'm not sure I understand where the Nuggets are now exactly, are they "win now" or just "happy to keep competing/developing", since they seem to be neither here not there. This roster doesn't seem nearly good enough to win now, and except MPJ they aren't developing anyone else either.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1338 » by skywalker33 » Sat Jan 9, 2021 12:02 am

One broadcaster noted this could be the same type of "WCF' hangover like POR went thru. At first I laughed it off but it doesn't seem so implausible right now. Add in the numerous changes on the roster and the lack of chemistry, Murray's first 5-game woes, Malone's 4-guard fascination and now MPJ's lack of COVID awareness and it could be a rough season.

Not sure a trade is necessary at this point, seems it might be rash. However, it would be an opportunity to see/develop our younger players. But that would play into my tank theory that was shot down already.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1339 » by The Rebel » Sat Jan 9, 2021 3:15 am

NuggetsWY wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:Denver better chase SG and SF, starting caliber players on those two positions.

You saw what took to trade for Jrue for example... Nuggets have nothing to offer anywhere near unless they want to include MPJ or Murray (and they don't). Nobody will trade starting caliber players for Gary or Barton.

"Starter" doesn't have to mean "Star". If Porter lives up to potential, our SG needs to be a defensive minded player that can hit some 3s - you know, like Gary Harris was (and hopefully returns to). Our SF needs to be a backup quality forward that can defend 2-3-4. That's the way I see it.


I agree, even if Harris struggles with his shot his defense is good enough to justify him being out there. It is not like he is going to take 20 shots a game, we need a guy that can defend and force teams to cover him on offense. Just his constant cutting and moving does that for us.

I do not know how anybody can watch this team and not easily see PF is where our biggest problem lays. Millsap is a situational player these days and Green looks like he is about to die at 21 mpg. We have to do something.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#1340 » by The Rebel » Sat Jan 9, 2021 3:42 am

skywalker33 wrote:One broadcaster noted this could be the same type of "WCF' hangover like POR went thru. At first I laughed it off but it doesn't seem so implausible right now. Add in the numerous changes on the roster and the lack of chemistry, Murray's first 5-game woes, Malone's 4-guard fascination and now MPJ's lack of COVID awareness and it could be a rough season.

Not sure a trade is necessary at this point, seems it might be rash. However, it would be an opportunity to see/develop our younger players. But that would play into my tank theory that was shot down already.

The Trailblazers had a ton of injuries, and nobody to replace the guys they lost. They lost Nurkic, Collins, and Hood early in the season after replacing Harkless, Kanter, Curry, and Turner with Bazemore, Labissiere, and Hezonja. There was a reason Melo was signed a few weeks into the season and immediately started, they had nobody else worthwhile.

People want to conflate that with us losing Plumlee, Grant, and Craig, which I do not understand. Green has been as good as Grant was all of last season except for 2 good games against the Lakers. Hartenstein has been very good in limited minutes. Whether you love or hate him Dozier has been just as effective as Craig ever was.

Our problem is much more serious problem that cannot just be fixed by waiting until next year.

Millsap has had his rebounds drop 30%, his blocks are further down, he is getting a half of steal less per game from last year, he scoring is down slightly. Those aren't even the worst part, while stats for defense are not really available yet for this year, the eye test and watching these starting PFs go off on us says that his defense is bad this year.

I don't know if Green is out of shape due to his missing so much of training camp and our 1st few games, but he looks gassed when he tries to play more than 20 mpg.

By Malone refusing to play Bol or Nnaji he is saying that neither is good enough to give any minutes too, despite it being painfully obvious that the 4 guard lineup kills us in games. Truth is after watching Bol for the few minutes he did play, I agree with Malone on him, but I think Nnaji getting minutes is best for the team long term, until we can find a suitable trade.

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