Nuggets Trades

[NuggetsWY]

English obviously isn't my native language, so please correct me if "talking down a player" (in the sense of saying he is worse than he actually is) isn't a term.

Didn't realize English wasn't your native language and by the way, you used that term correctly.

[Timmyyy]

Well, this forum is all just a matter of opinion. While I can agree with some of your posts, I can also see some that are YOUR opinions as well. Doesn't mean you are correct, or that I am, just a matter of what each of us project to happen in the future, only time will tell. I do appreciate you pointing out it wasn't ME directly you were referring to about talking down, I do try to clean up my act when I can. And I want to point out I never inferred it was an insulting offer, just one I don't believe will happen based on what the owner has said and including my own opinion there as well. As for my wording, perhaps that is because I AM in sales, so it could be I am protective of my favorite's best interest, but I will not apologize for that, much as I wouldn't in "protection" of my kid.

As for your English, I would've never guessed it isn't a native language, you're doing fine ! I hope you don't find this conversation as negative banter, just as clearing the air for future meetings of the mind.

I don't think I did give a lot of my opinion on the matter actually. And of course the times I did, I am aware it isn't gospel. I hope my post didn't come around that way.

Nobody needs to apologize for anything. I just wanted to make this post because I feel we could have way better discussions if we try to avoid doing the things I pointed out. It is up to everybody if they feel the same way.

Thanks for the kind words on my english. I appreciate it. No negativity at all from my side. My goal was actually to reach the opposite in the long run.

[skywalker33]

So probably not the most popular idea, but one to consider:

TOR trades Siakiam, Powell and 2021 1st
DEN trades Murray, Barton and 2021 1st

Nuggets get a stronger front line with better defense going forward. MPJ now gets opportunity to move up to 2nd option, Pascal gets less pressure on him with Jokic the true #1. Powell replaces Barton, both have PO's for next year, both expected to opt-out but no more ISO-drama. Morris moves into the starting unit, gives Facu more PT off the bench. Green can move to SF backup or we could give Bol more PT there. The pick swap could turn into a lottery pick, move us up to mid-teens at worst IMO.

Raptors get the home-town boy to pair with FVV, offers #1 prospect. Boucher moves to PF and gets Barton to replaces Powell's scoring off the bench.

[THE J0KER]

I think Siakam/Porter discussion is not realistic. Why would Toronto trade their own established PF, their 2nd best player when they won the ring? Why would the Nuggets trade for another PF which unlike Porter can't play SF, so useful players like Millsap, Green, Bol... can't be used enough, while only guards Barton and Dozier will be available for SF?

The biggest problem in Toronto since that franchise exists is to hold their stars. American-born Porter will be for sure a riskier "I want to live in the USA" case than Siakam from Cameroon! But that tells us who will be the real target in Denver for Canadians. JAMAL MURRAY, already at 23y the best Canadian player ever after Steve Nash, for which they are ready even to overpay because of good chances to stay there forever.

TORONTO: Murray, Cancar
DENVER: Siakam, OG Anunoby

So Toronto gets a new franchise player for the next about 10 years without fears to lose him, while Denver is the clear winner of this deal because of the two-way-OG>>>Cancar. But that may be only on the paper because of the giant disbalance between the league-best frontcourt line (Porter-Siakam-Jokic, backed with OG and Green) and mediocre backcourt. The last time frontcourt alone won the ring without a notable guard was more than 20 years ago with Duncan-Robinson Spurs (LeBron is backcourt player in Lakers since Davis comes!). We can use OG, Harris, Barton, Morris, and Bol as assets to get an elite guard in the summer offseason or to use Toronto willingness to overpay Murray with Siakam and OG in another way:

TORONTO: Murray, Cancar
WASHINGTON: Siakam, Barton, DEN2021
DENVER: Beal, OG Anunoby, T.Brown

Of course, this deal is a win for Nuggets only with Beal's promise that will stay and re-sign a max deal with Denver in 2022.

[NuggetsWY]

Well, this forum is all just a matter of opinion. While I can agree with some of your posts, I can also see some that are YOUR opinions as well. Doesn't mean you are correct, or that I am, just a matter of what each of us project to happen in the future, only time will tell. I do appreciate you pointing out it wasn't ME directly you were referring to about talking down, I do try to clean up my act when I can. And I want to point out I never inferred it was an insulting offer, just one I don't believe will happen based on what the owner has said and including my own opinion there as well. As for my wording, perhaps that is because I AM in sales, so it could be I am protective of my favorite's best interest, but I will not apologize for that, much as I wouldn't in "protection" of my kid.

As for your English, I would've never guessed it isn't a native language, you're doing fine ! I hope you don't find this conversation as negative banter, just as clearing the air for future meetings of the mind.

I don't think I did give a lot of my opinion on the matter actually. And of course the times I did, I am aware it isn't gospel. I hope my post didn't come around that way.

Nobody needs to apologize for anything. I just wanted to make this post because I feel we could have way better discussions if we try to avoid doing the things I pointed out. It is up to everybody if they feel the same way.

Thanks for the kind words on my english. I appreciate it. No negativity at all from my side. My goal was actually to reach the opposite in the long run.

We have a few people that post frequently and often disagree with each other - myself & The Joker & The Rebel & Skywalker and several others that post regularly. Then we have people that come in and get offended and don't come back. Once in a while we have someone come in and post the same old nonsense that everyone disagrees with and it doesn't matter what the thread is about, they keep posting the same thing over and over. It is usually suggested they stop posting here.

We love people that post and the more often, the more love. Your attitude of worrying about offending and fitting in is perfect. If you keep posting, you'll get past that and get in our faces even more. You are definitely a solid poster!

If you have questions, feel free to send a private message to myself or The Joker --- or even some of the other regulars here. We've got a good group!

[NuggetsWY]

So probably not the most popular idea, but one to consider:

TOR trades Siakiam, Powell and 2021 1st
DEN trades Murray, Barton and 2021 1st

Nuggets get a stronger front line with better defense going forward. MPJ now gets opportunity to move up to 2nd option, Pascal gets less pressure on him with Jokic the true #1. Powell replaces Barton, both have PO's for next year, both expected to opt-out but no more ISO-drama. Morris moves into the starting unit, gives Facu more PT off the bench. Green can move to SF backup or we could give Bol more PT there. The pick swap could turn into a lottery pick, move us up to mid-teens at worst IMO.

Raptors get the home-town boy to pair with FVV, offers #1 prospect. Boucher moves to PF and gets Barton to replaces Powell's scoring off the bench.

Come on Sky, you know I'm not going to like this one!

But, um, well, uh, maybe - I hate myself for saying this - it makes a lot of sense. I'd rather keep Murray and gamble on him, but Siakam & Powell definitely make us better for now IMO. It basically takes one year off each contract for us. Siakam & Powell are both in the right age range. It could work out in the long term now.

Just for making me say that, I'm going to have to send some bad juju your way.

[NuggetsWY]

I think Siakam/Porter discussion is not realistic. Why would Toronto trade their own established PF, their 2nd best player when they won the ring? Why would the Nuggets trade for another PF which unlike Porter can't play SF, so useful players like Millsap, Green, Bol... can't be used enough, while only guards Barton and Dozier will be available for SF?

Toronto is probably open to trade anyone, just because they are treading water right now and the future doesn't look any better. No doubt they are going to be extremely picky over whom they trade one of their best for.

Siakam fits in Denver because Millsap is almost done and if Siakam comes, that'll push the end faster. Siakam would be a better backup center than the rest of our PFs (and maybe better than Hartenstein). Green is a pure PF - but he can play SF against some of the bigger SFs around the league. Nobody knows what Bol is; is he a center? Probably not, too thin. Is he a PF? Probably not, still too thin. Is he a SF or SG? Not really, he's not quick enough. He is definitely not a point, even though he can handle the ball fairly well - for a 7'2" player.

Your point about trading Porter is right on (above and below). It's bad for Denver and Toronto would have to believe Porter would stay long term.

The biggest problem in Toronto since that franchise exists is to hold their stars. American-born Porter will be for sure a riskier "I want to live in the USA" case than Siakam from Cameroon! But that tells us who will be the real target in Denver for Canadians. JAMAL MURRAY, already at 23y the best Canadian player ever after Steve Nash, for which they are ready even to overpay because of good chances to stay there forever.

TORONTO: Murray, Cancar
DENVER: Siakam, OG Anunoby

So Toronto gets a new franchise player for the next about 10 years without fears to lose him, while Denver is the clear winner of this deal because of the two-way-OG>>>Cancar. But that may be only on the paper because of the giant disbalance between the league-best frontcourt line (Porter-Siakam-Jokic, backed with OG and Green) and mediocre backcourt. The last time frontcourt alone won the ring without a notable guard was more than 20 years ago with Duncan-Robinson Spurs (LeBron is backcourt player in Lakers since Davis comes!). We can use OG, Harris, Barton, Morris, and Bol as assets to get an elite guard in the summer offseason

Yeah, Murray makes the perfect target for them but basically this deal amounts to Murray for Siakam & Anunoby. That's a lot to pay for Murray; so I'm betting they want at least one 1st or maybe a couple of 2nds or some combination of picks.

If we made that deal, I'd want to keep Anunoby. I think he could play SG next to Porter. He might come off the bench with Morris starting; but it's gotta be tempting for both teams.

or to use Toronto willingness to overpay Murray with Siakam and OG in another way:

TORONTO: Murray, Cancar
WASHINGTON: Siakam, Barton, DEN2021
DENVER: Beal, OG Anunoby, T.Brown

Of course, this deal is a win for Nuggets only with Beal's promise that will stay and re-sign a max deal with Denver in 2022.

A lot of the same thoughts in this deal - for Denver & Toronto.

I think Denver is getting the best of this deal, by quite a bit. Beal is going to cost more than this to pry him out of Washington. But I love it for Denver.

I still think Toronto is going to want a little more, but by adding Washington, it becomes more difficult. Not sure if there's a players that can be added, but a couple of 2nds from Denver might help. I think they could be talked into something close to this.

Washington is probably not interested in this deal. They are going to want at least a couple more 1st round picks - no doubt it would have to be Denver sending those. (I'd hate it, but I think I'd do it. Not sure if Denver can do that though, so maybe we have to give up Morris or Dozier.) I doubt Washington is going to accept this as proposed, but with a little more incentive, they might make the deal.

[The Rebel]

Siakam and Oladipo are both overrated and not guys I would trade MPJ or picks for, they can stay were they are at. We were literally just in the Western Conference finals, with these supposed terrible players we have all playing major minutes. We don't need to make stupid deals for guys who are actually bad fits with the team.

This last paragraph is exactly what I meant with my last post.
It's not enough to disagree with the original trade proposal, the players have to be overrated and bad fits. I mean Oladipo is a good player that would help us for sure. Nobody ist saying he is some type of star (fit might be debatable). Siakam the same and he is actually like the perfect fit. I mean, feels a little weird to say he is a bad fit but somehow you think Collins is a great fit. As I said, a lot of exaggeration in this thread in my eyes.

Agree with most of the rest of your post though.

You can post your arguments on why I am wrong, and please do, but to insinuate that I am a homer and exaggerating then refusing to discuss says a lot more about you than me.

I watch more basketball than most basketball junkies, I watch a game or two a night every night the entire season because I literally do not watch any other tv outside of the occasional football game. I also understand stats, so please tell me where I am wrong and don't be so passive aggressive.

You want to talk about Oladipo, we can. He requested a trade prior to the season starting because he did not like the Pacers offense. Do you know what the Pacer's offense is? It is a cheap knock off of the Nuggets offense. They run a pick and roll with Sabonis or in the post with Sabonis almost every trip down the floor. Oladipo saw the offense and requested a trade. So if he will not play in their offense, why would he play in our offense?

We can also discuss Oladipo's play style. His 1 great year was the year where the entire offense ran through him and he got the easy assignments on defense, he is an iso player. it is no different than adding Will Barton with 17 shots per game to the roster. Do you think that helps our offense?

You want to talk about Siakam? We can discuss why he is overrated. People call him a 2nd star or 3rd star, and say that is what he was on the raptors championship team, and they are full of ****. He may have been the 2nd leading scorer, but he was the 4th guy that got hot at the right time. Go watch those playoff games, the best defender was on Kawhi, the 2nd best on Lowry, and the best big man defender was on Gasol or Ibaka. There is a huge difference between being the 4th guy and a true number 2. He is finding that out now, he started out hot last season, but once teams started paying more attention to him his stats dropped badly.

Speaking of his stats, you should go look at how he does against the top 10 defensive teams in the league, the guy pads his stats against the worst teams. Unfortunately impact stats don't show that, because not a single one differentiates between who the opponents are or how good they are, and most are terrible at adjusting for lineups. Go look at who was backing him up and overall how bad their bench was, then come back and try to argue how effectively those impact stats tell the whole story.

Also while you are at it, go look at his defensive stats, notice how they drop as the raptors lost their better defenders? You tell me, is it easier guarding the opposing team's best player or the 4th best player? If you have ever actually played is it easier to be aggressive on defense when you know that your teammates will be where they are supposed to be every play? You know who has always had that? Siakam, you know who has never had an even decent defense around him?

It really is funny you use Saikam's advanced stats for last season to try to argue how great he is, but yet you ignore John Collins advanced stats for this and last season, his 3rd and 4th year in the league when most players show the most growth and who they will be the rest of their career. I am sorry but saying you heard someone is bad at something is not a real argument, you insist he is a bad fit, yet all the advanced stats, all the tracking stats, and the eye test all say he is the perfect fit, but I guess since someone told you something we ignore all the facts? Then you insinuate that I have no idea what I am talking about, while you do?

[TunaFish]

It is hard to argue with the dichotomie of a .500 record while have a legitimate MVP candidate. They have a couple of players still not ready for prime time. Additionally, they are processing a lot of new players and Barton/Harris is still a concern. MPJ has covid.

It looks like they have two glaring holes with subpar play at both shooting guard and power forward with a likely Millsap decline. The pressure to make a trade must be growing, if they intend to keep contending.

Anyone have an interest in Oladipo? Without a doubt, Houston is shuffling the deck. Hinting that he is headed for Miami has driven the price down considerably. Maybe we could trade Harris for Oladipo straight up, no picks and no other assets.

[skywalker33]

It is hard to argue with the dichotomie of a .500 record while have a legitimate MVP candidate. They have a couple of players still not ready for prime time. Additionally, they are processing a lot of new players and Barton/Harris is still a concern. MPJ has covid.

It looks like they have two glaring holes with subpar play at both shooting guard and power forward with a likely Millsap decline. The pressure to make a trade must be growing, if they intend to keep contending.

Anyone have an interest in Oladipo? Without a doubt, Houston is shuffling the deck. Hinting that he is headed for Miami has driven the price down considerably. Maybe we could trade Harris for Oladipo straight up, no picks and no other assets.

Interestingly enough, that seems to be the TWO positions we drafted this year, seems like a coincidence....or is it ?? Had to laugh at that one (not at you Tuna, just noting the irony).

Don't think Oladipo is going anywhere soon, unless it's to MIA which seems to be VO's desired destination sooner or later. Given that, I wouldn't touch that one for fear of Iggy's demons reappearing here, don't wanna make the same mistake twice.

And just for the record, my Murray proposal was just for conversation and to re-direct this thread back on track and having a little fun. Don't see Murray being traded but for Gosh sakes, get this guy some consistency !!

[NuggetsWY]

It is hard to argue with the dichotomie of a .500 record while have a legitimate MVP candidate. They have a couple of players still not ready for prime time. Additionally, they are processing a lot of new players and Barton/Harris is still a concern. MPJ has covid.

It looks like they have two glaring holes with subpar play at both shooting guard and power forward with a likely Millsap decline. The pressure to make a trade must be growing, if they intend to keep contending.

Anyone have an interest in Oladipo? Without a doubt, Houston is shuffling the deck. Hinting that he is headed for Miami has driven the price down considerably. Maybe we could trade Harris for Oladipo straight up, no picks and no other assets.

Yeah, lots of new players, no summer league, not much of a training camp or pre-season - no surprise the Nuggets are struggling. No doubt most of the league assumes that when Green acclimatizes and Porter returns and Murray and/or Harris figure out how to score consistently, the Nuggets will be dangerous. These are weird times. Right now we are depending on that MVP candidate that is having a remarkable beginning of the season.

I have zero interest in Oladipo. In my mind, he's like Barton only worse and by worse, I don't mean a worse player, I mean a worse fit in Denver. There are plenty of teams where he'd fit just fine; but not playing with Jokic. His best offense is when he has the ball and goes one-on-one. It seems unlikely that Houston would trade him for Harris straight up. We'd have to add another young player or a pick - but that's just my opinion and I would not be willing to make that trade.

The Rocket I would be most interested in is that 6'5" power forward: PJ Tucker. BTW, did you know his wingspan is 6'10"? He'd bring a great attitude and could help teach defense - especially team defense. Sometimes a player can teach what a coach can't. He's not really a defensive stopper and I don't think his advanced statistics show him to be a great defender, but the eye-test says he makes it difficult for opponents to score. And it's true, he's not a great offensive player, but he can hit an open three without much trouble. I just don't think a 35 yr old with his skill set would cost a lot. I believe we have a trade exception that can absorb his salary, if we wanted.

[NuggetsWY]

It is hard to argue with the dichotomie of a .500 record while have a legitimate MVP candidate. They have a couple of players still not ready for prime time. Additionally, they are processing a lot of new players and Barton/Harris is still a concern. MPJ has covid.

It looks like they have two glaring holes with subpar play at both shooting guard and power forward with a likely Millsap decline. The pressure to make a trade must be growing, if they intend to keep contending.

Anyone have an interest in Oladipo? Without a doubt, Houston is shuffling the deck. Hinting that he is headed for Miami has driven the price down considerably. Maybe we could trade Harris for Oladipo straight up, no picks and no other assets.

Yeah, lots of new players, no summer league, not much of a training camp or pre-season - no surprise the Nuggets are struggling. No doubt most of the league assumes that when Green acclimatizes and Porter returns and Murray and/or Harris figure out how to score consistently, the Nuggets will be dangerous. These are weird times. Right now we are depending on that MVP candidate that is having a remarkable beginning of the season.

I have zero interest in Oladipo. In my mind, he's like Barton only worse and by worse, I don't mean a worse player, I mean a worse fit in Denver. There are plenty of teams where he'd fit just fine; but not playing with Jokic. His best offense is when he has the ball and goes one-on-one. It seems unlikely that Houston would trade him for Harris straight up. We'd have to add another young player or a pick - but that's just my opinion and I would not be willing to make that trade.

The Rocket I would be most interested in is that 6'5" power forward: PJ Tucker. BTW, did you know his wingspan is 6'10"? He'd bring a great attitude and could help teach defense - especially team defense. Sometimes a player can teach what a coach can't. He's not really a defensive stopper and I don't think his advanced statistics show him to be a great defender, but the eye-test says he makes it difficult for opponents to score. And it's true, he's not a great offensive player, but he can hit an open three without much trouble. I just don't think a 35 yr old with his skill set would cost a lot. I believe we have a trade exception that can absorb his salary, if we wanted.

[NuggetsWY]

It is hard to argue with the dichotomie of a .500 record while have a legitimate MVP candidate. They have a couple of players still not ready for prime time. Additionally, they are processing a lot of new players and Barton/Harris is still a concern. MPJ has covid.

It looks like they have two glaring holes with subpar play at both shooting guard and power forward with a likely Millsap decline. The pressure to make a trade must be growing, if they intend to keep contending.

Anyone have an interest in Oladipo? Without a doubt, Houston is shuffling the deck. Hinting that he is headed for Miami has driven the price down considerably. Maybe we could trade Harris for Oladipo straight up, no picks and no other assets.

Yeah, lots of new players, no summer league, not much of a training camp or pre-season - no surprise the Nuggets are struggling. No doubt most of the league assumes that when Green acclimatizes and Porter returns and Murray and/or Harris figure out how to score consistently, the Nuggets will be dangerous. These are weird times. Right now we are depending on that MVP candidate that is having a remarkable beginning of the season.

I have zero interest in Oladipo. In my mind, he's like Barton only worse and by worse, I don't mean a worse player, I mean a worse fit in Denver. There are plenty of teams where he'd fit just fine; but not playing with Jokic. His best offense is when he has the ball and goes one-on-one. It seems unlikely that Houston would trade him for Harris straight up. We'd have to add another young player or a pick - but that's just my opinion and I would not be willing to make that trade.

The Rocket I would be most interested in is that 6'5" power forward: PJ Tucker. BTW, did you know his wingspan is 6'10"? He'd bring a great attitude and could help teach defense - especially team defense. Sometimes a player can teach what a coach can't. He's not really a defensive stopper and I don't think his advanced statistics show him to be a great defender, but the eye-test says he makes it difficult for opponents to score. And it's true, he's not a great offensive player, but he can hit an open three without much trouble. I just don't think a 35 yr old with his skill set would cost a lot. I believe we have a trade exception that can absorb his salary, if we wanted.

[Timmyyy]

You can post your arguments on why I am wrong, and please do, but to insinuate that I am a homer and exaggerating then refusing to discuss says a lot more about you than me.

I watch more basketball than most basketball junkies, I watch a game or two a night every night the entire season because I literally do not watch any other tv outside of the occasional football game. I also understand stats, so please tell me where I am wrong and don't be so passive aggressive.

Alright, I never wanted to insult anyone but seeing the attitude in your post it feels like I did. I will answer of course to the things you asked me. But I have the feeling my criticism/proposal that we might be able to have better discussion when we aren't exaggerating the player quality, fit and things like that isn't really welcome so I guess I have to drop that afterwards. Edit: No aggressiveness from my side. Also no accusation of homerism. Only true part is accusation of exaggeration but in a non aggressive way. More like a proposal to raise the quality of discussion. But thanks for starting your post by putting words into my mouth.

You want to talk about Oladipo, we can. He requested a trade prior to the season starting because he did not like the Pacers offense. Do you know what the Pacer's offense is? It is a cheap knock off of the Nuggets offense. They run a pick and roll with Sabonis or in the post with Sabonis almost every trip down the floor. Oladipo saw the offense and requested a trade. So if he will not play in their offense, why would he play in our offense?

We can also discuss Oladipo's play style. His 1 great year was the year where the entire offense ran through him and he got the easy assignments on defense, he is an iso player. it is no different than adding Will Barton with 17 shots per game to the roster. Do you think that helps our offense?

I added that fit is debatable. I think Dipo is at his best when he can handle the ball a lot. But he definitely is good without it too. Is he willing to do it? As you said, likely not. Which is why I wouldn't do that proposal either.
Does this make Dipo overrated. No not really. He will never get back to the level of his awesome season. But in the games he played over the years (admittedly not many) he played quite well in a reduced role, having a solid positive impact (looking at RPM/RAPM numbers and from what I saw the few times I watched the pacers the last two years). But nobody is saying he is that awesome guy that pushes us over the top.
As I said I wouldn't do that proposal either, which is why I said in my post to sky that I wasn't even giving my own opinion on the trade matters all that much. I just wanna say that when you think the Nuggets want more financial freedom this summer and want to gain one or two % this season the trade proposal isn't complete trash as some are making it seem to be.

You want to talk about Siakam? We can discuss why he is overrated. People call him a 2nd star or 3rd star, and say that is what he was on the raptors championship team, and they are full of ****. He may have been the 2nd leading scorer, but he was the 4th guy that got hot at the right time. Go watch those playoff games, the best defender was on Kawhi, the 2nd best on Lowry, and the best big man defender was on Gasol or Ibaka. There is a huge difference between being the 4th guy and a true number 2. He is finding that out now, he started out hot last season, but once teams started paying more attention to him his stats dropped badly.

Edit: I watched nearly all PO-games of the Raps that season. Just to establish that.
I never argued Siakam is that super offensive weapon as I repeatedly said that he is best as a 2nd or 3rd option. But what you did is misleading again. The best perimeter defenders were on Lowry and Kawhi because they were the best offensive players on the team, sure. The best bigs were on Ibaka and Gasol (not always true but for the most part) because non of the true bigs is able to contain Siakam. Or are you really suggesting Gasol and Ibaka were more dangerous players than Siakam on offense and this is the reason why they got covered by these bigs?
I also don't know what you are talking about with NrX NrY sometimes. Siakam was their 2nd best player but 3rd best offensive player at best. So I don't know what you are arguing exactly.

Speaking of his stats, you should go look at how he does against the top 10 defensive teams in the league, the guy pads his stats against the worst teams. Unfortunately impact stats don't show that, because not a single one differentiates between who the opponents are or how good they are, and most are terrible at adjusting for lineups. Go look at who was backing him up and overall how bad their bench was, then come back and try to argue how effectively those impact stats tell the whole story.

What defensive stats are you talking about? The guy is an impact monster on defense. RAPM 19 has him as the 5th most impactful defender in the NBA. RPM in 19 and 20 have him in an elite group of defenders. PIPM too if I remember correctly. The Raptors are consistently better with him on the court on defense and glaringly so (exception 19 POs). I don't care about descriptive stats that are telling what a guy did. I wanna know what kind of impact is behind it. And the eye test and every lineup, on/off or +/- stat is saying he is great.
And by the way just for your information: RPM and RAPM are doing exactly what you are saying they don't do. Adjusting for subs, quality of the own team and quality of opponents. The larger the sample the better of course, but since every single stat is hinting in that direction over the course of 3 years, yeah, we can be pretty sure about his impact.

Also while you are at it, go look at his defensive stats, notice how they drop as the raptors lost their better defenders? You tell me, is it easier guarding the opposing team's best player or the 4th best player? If you have ever actually played is it easier to be aggressive on defense when you know that your teammates will be where they are supposed to be every play? You know who has always had that? Siakam, you know who has never had an even decent defense around him?

The 100th time you talk about stats, I can't even argue against it since I don't know which stats you mean.
He is a solid man defender and a great team defender. Man defense isn't as important as team defense anyway. I don't care who he guards, he is supposed to defend properly on every occasion. And since I watched him play a lot and see what his impact stats show, I am comfortable there is absolutely no issue with him on defense. Again he is in a pretty elite group there for 3 years now.

It really is funny you use Saikam's advanced stats for last season to try to argue how great he is, but yet you ignore John Collins advanced stats for this and last season, his 3rd and 4th year in the league when most players show the most growth and who they will be the rest of their career. I am sorry but saying you heard someone is bad at something is not a real argument, you insist he is a bad fit, yet all the advanced stats, all the tracking stats, and the eye test all say he is the perfect fit, but I guess since someone told you something we ignore all the facts? Then you insinuate that I have no idea what I am talking about, while you do?

Again no idea what stats you are talking. Collins looks solid the last few years. According to impact stats around neutral, with neutral to slightly above neutral defense. When I see him I don't get away impressed with his defense either. As Porter, Collins would have to make gigantic leaps to get on Siakams level impact wise and its not like he is super young. If you have followed my posts you know that I think Collins is a decent but not great fit (not a bad fit as you say), so I don't know what you are arguing here. Not everybody feels the need to exaggerate their points Complete strawman.
I never said you don't know what you are talking about. I said that the statement I quoted feels like an exaggeration considering how you feel about Collins. You are laying a lot of words in my mouth for such a short OP of mine.

And btw the bolded one feels like your talking down to me and between the lines you did it in that whole post. You act like an expert beating me down with your knowledge. You know what?!! I watch basketball too. I know a lot about stats too (and not just the useless ones you are using). The way you talk it seems you are overvaluing your own basketball knowledge.
Here you have my perspective on things but I guess I was again only saying stuff that I heard. I gave you my numbers (the ones you don't even know how they work and what they say) and assessment from the eye test but somehow you are talking about mysterious stats (more than likely tracking and boxscore stuff that isn't telling me anything about impact, the same stats that paint Jokic as a bad defender, but he is OUR guy so the stats aren't telling the whole story but since Siakam is not our guy they are damning), while saying I wasn't precise with my analysis, when I didn't even give an analysis and only pointed out that maybe some things you said were exaggeration. I have no interest in that type of discussion, especially since my OP was about a completely different thing than what you are arguing against now.
I am out, have a nice time padding yourself on the back for that beatdown.

[baksuzz]

i see a lot of Denver fans overrate their players and at the same time underrate opposing team players which

I would say Jokic makes all of them look much better then they actually are

Murray- 20/4/3, not a great defender, not a great shooter, on a max deal

Harris-10/3/2 on a terrible 3p%, good defender, on a 20mil per season

Barton-11/4/3 on a 40% FG for 13mil/year

Millsap- his % are good but he is old and cant defend good anymore unfortunatelly

I think Harris, Barton and Millsap wouldnt start for 90% of top10 teams. Murray is overpaid for what he brings and while Porter shows great potential i would not offer him a max contract unless he improves a LOT on defense(his injury history is a big deal). Even then you would have Porter, Murray and Jokic and with 3 of them surrounded by the same type of guys, i dont think you will be among favorites to win the title.

Some people say with the same group we just played NBA conf finals; Grant, Plumlee and Craig left and they were an important part of the rotation. Now the bench is Campazzo, Morris, Green, Dozier, Bol Bol?? doesnt look great to me
Even though Denver played great in PO, both the series vs Clippers and Jazz were a miracle comebacks and Denver could easily been out in first round.
2019 win vs Spurs 4-3 and defeated in semi finals vs Portland who was swept vs GSW. 2018 no playoffs

Some people dont want to trade picks, even though coach doesnt play rookies much and Jokic has contract for next 2years. There is no time to develop rookies and risk Jokic leaving, which i think might happen because when his contract ends he will be 28 with Murray still on contract for 2years, and porter too(if signed). If they dont play conf finals again in next 2 years, why would he stay with the same team?


Jokic is playing unreal last 2years, this year if he keeps his stats with this efficiency only thing stoping him to take MVP is Denver not having good enough record. And risking Jokic walking away in 3years because of MPJ, Harris, Barton or few picks that will warm the bench anyways is ridiculous to me. Jokic is a great guy and i think he loves Denver but if they dont build a better team around him im sure he will leave somewhere where he will be able to compete for Title/MVP award(Porzingis contract ends at the same time as Jokic, and i think he could team up with Doncic)

[Richard Miller]

Some people dont want to trade picks, even though coach doesnt play rookies much and Jokic has contract for next 2years. There is no time to develop rookies and risk Jokic leaving, which i think might happen because when his contract ends he will be 28 with Murray still on contract for 2years, and porter too(if signed). If they dont play conf finals again in next 2 years, why would he stay with the same team?

You're not going to get Curry or Beal by trading Gary or Barton and picks, getting an impact player is not going to be likely without including at least MPJ (or Murray).

[baksuzz]

Some people dont want to trade picks, even though coach doesnt play rookies much and Jokic has contract for next 2years. There is no time to develop rookies and risk Jokic leaving, which i think might happen because when his contract ends he will be 28 with Murray still on contract for 2years, and porter too(if signed). If they dont play conf finals again in next 2 years, why would he stay with the same team?

You're not going to get Curry or Beal by trading Gary or Barton and picks, getting an impact player is not going to be likely without including at least MPJ (or Murray).

Of course, my point was no one except Jokic would be untouchable. 2021 FA class is bad so i would go for Beal: Murray+MPJ+picks is probably one of the best offers any team can do. I dont think Curry is available. Try and sign in offseason for a reasonable contract Chris Paul or Lowry.
im sure Jokic/Beal/CP would have much better chance next year in PO then Jokic/Murray/MPJ and in future i would much rather have Beal and whoever you sign in 2022 then Murray and MPJ on max contracts

[The Rebel]

It is hard to argue with the dichotomie of a .500 record while have a legitimate MVP candidate. They have a couple of players still not ready for prime time. Additionally, they are processing a lot of new players and Barton/Harris is still a concern. MPJ has covid.

It looks like they have two glaring holes with subpar play at both shooting guard and power forward with a likely Millsap decline. The pressure to make a trade must be growing, if they intend to keep contending.

Anyone have an interest in Oladipo? Without a doubt, Houston is shuffling the deck. Hinting that he is headed for Miami has driven the price down considerably. Maybe we could trade Harris for Oladipo straight up, no picks and no other assets.

HOuston wanted Oladipo for his expiring contract, I doubt they take a 2 year deal without a lot of compensation. They will likely hold Oladipo until the trade deadline when they can trade him for an expiring and a pick.

[NuggetsWY]

i see a lot of Denver fans overrate their players and at the same time underrate opposing team players

I would say that most fans overrate their players and underrate opposing players

which I would say Jokic makes all of them look much better then they actually are

This has been said by many, many, many posters

Murray- 20/4/3, not a great defender, not a great shooter, on a max deal

His defense is getting better and we all know he's struggling right now. He's not the first great player to have a cold spell but if he were available for trade, there aren't many teams that wouldn't jump at the chance to grab him.

Harris-10/3/2 on a terrible 3p%, good defender, on a 20mil per season

We know he's having a rough time shooting but he isn't a good defender - he's elite.

Barton-11/4/3 on a 40% FG for 13mil/year

Yup, and everyone on this board knows his game works better on a different style of team - at least most of us.

Millsap- his % are good but he is old and cant defend good anymore unfortunatelly

On this one you are flat-out wrong. The truth is, he can no longer defend as well against smaller players, but his defense against bigs is decent or better.[/quote]

I think Harris, Barton and Millsap wouldnt start for 90% of top10 teams. Murray is overpaid for what he brings and while Porter shows great potential i would not offer him a max contract unless he improves a LOT on defense(his injury history is a big deal). Even then you would have Porter, Murray and Jokic and with 3 of them surrounded by the same type of guys, i dont think you will be among favorites to win the title.

"Some people say" is often just a way of saying "I think, but want to blame someone else".
You sound like people who said that last year's Nuggets (all those same players you are bashing), just weren't good enough to compete. Um, excuse me, but they seemed to do fairly well.

Some people say with the same group we just played NBA conf finals; Grant, Plumlee and Craig left and they were an important part of the rotation. Now the bench is Campazzo, Morris, Green, Dozier, Bol Bol?? doesnt look great to me
Even though Denver played great in PO, both the series vs Clippers and Jazz were a miracle comebacks and Denver could easily been out in first round.
2019 win vs Spurs 4-3 and defeated in semi finals vs Portland who was swept vs GSW. 2018 no playoffs

Yup, Grant, Plumlee, Craig left and "some people say" they were vital. Green got a slow start due to injury and conditioning, but he's beginning to look like a better offensive fit than all three of those and while his defense appears a little less than Grant's, it seems adequate. Certainly we will miss Grant.

Denver let Plumlee leave because his offense caused problems - did you notice he is averaging about 27 mpg in Detroit? Doesn't seem like he's a guy they are depending on. I don't think we are missing Plumlee.

"Some people say" (meaning myself and some other regulars on this board) that Craig's defense wasn't as great as it was talked up and his offense was sporadic at best. I don't think we are missing Craig.

Some people dont want to trade picks, even though coach doesnt play rookies much and Jokic has contract for next 2years. There is no time to develop rookies and risk Jokic leaving, which i think might happen because when his contract ends he will be 28 with Murray still on contract for 2years, and porter too(if signed). If they dont play conf finals again in next 2 years, why would he stay with the same team?

Jokic is playing unreal last 2years, this year if he keeps his stats with this efficiency only thing stoping him to take MVP is Denver not having good enough record. And risking Jokic walking away in 3years because of MPJ, Harris, Barton or few picks that will warm the bench anyways is ridiculous to me. Jokic is a great guy and i think he loves Denver but if they dont build a better team around him im sure he will leave somewhere where he will be able to compete for Title/MVP award(Porzingis contract ends at the same time as Jokic, and i think he could team up with Doncic)

Hmm, you might be right, we might lose Jokic. But do you know him personally that well? "Everyone" said Lillard wouldn't stay in Portland and "everyone" still says that. Yet he stays.

[NuggetsWY]

Some people dont want to trade picks, even though coach doesnt play rookies much and Jokic has contract for next 2years. There is no time to develop rookies and risk Jokic leaving, which i think might happen because when his contract ends he will be 28 with Murray still on contract for 2years, and porter too(if signed). If they dont play conf finals again in next 2 years, why would he stay with the same team?

You're not going to get Curry or Beal by trading Gary or Barton and picks, getting an impact player is not going to be likely without including at least MPJ (or Murray).

Exactly right Mr. Miller - people forget that while they don't want to trade their stars, other teams don't want to trade their stars