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Nuggets Trades

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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#521 » by The Rebel » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:52 am

skywalker33 wrote:
Spoiler:
The Rebel wrote:Portland Trail Blazers Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Will Barton
44th overall pick

Outgoing Players
Rodney Hood
Zach Collins
16th overall pick

The Trailblazers desperately need a 4th guy, a guy who can capably play SF and can defend and spot up. It would be admitting the screwed up trading Barton, but I can see it working for them. Hood tore his achilles in December, he will likely miss a lot of next season, and I am not sure he will be anywhere close to as valuable going forward. Even Trailblazer fans are starting to admit that Collins is likely always going to be a backup big. They pick up a starter that local fans still seem to love for a backup big and a 1st round pick while dumping a bad salary, seems like a good deal to me.

Chicago Bulls Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Monte Morris
Rodney Hood
21st overall pick

Outgoing Players
Tomas Satoransky
Chandler Hutchison
Daniel Gafford
44th overall pick

The Bulls move from the 2nd round to the 1st, get a young PG that they desperately need, and dump a year off of Satoransky's deal by giving up Gafford and Hutchison. 2 guys that do not have high enough ceilings to be building blocks or take minutes from higher ceiling guys.


Denver Nuggets Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Zach Collins
Tomas Satoransky
Chandler Hutchison
Daniel Gafford
16th overall pick


Outgoing Players
Will Barton
Monte Morris
21st overall pick

Barton and Morris are both quality starters in this league, and a lot of teams need them as a 4th or 5th guy. We load up on young role players that are good enough to be in a quality rotation and maybe with development may work into starting quality. Collins is not going to be a star, but he has a solid mid range shot, is a shot blocker, and most importantly he likes to play rough and physical, exactly what we need out of a backup big. Hutchison is a good defender and solid spot up shooter, even playing injured half the season last year he was a clear upgrade on Craig and could still develop into a starting quality guy. Gafford is more of a hustle guy, he will likely never be a starter, but he is a guy every good team needs. Moving up from 21st to 16th should give us a better selection of the higher upside guys. The downside is taking back Satoransky, he is way overpaid but he still makes a very good 5th guard. A guy you can use when someone is hurt and he is a solid enough backup and he is only guaranteed for $5 million in 21/22 so he would make a solid trade chip at the deadline.


Love for that to happen but seems a little lite FOR Portland and a little lite FROM Denver.


I think Nuggets fans especially underrate the value of Barton. He is a quality starter making an average of about $14 million over the next 2 years. The stats bear out that he was our 2nd best perimeter defender and many argued he was our best player the 1st 2 months of the season. A 15/6/4 on just below average efficiency with good defense as a starter at SF is a huge need around the league especially if he can create for others.

Barton is a bad fit because he is a guy who likes to have the ball in his hands but he is much better used as a drive and kick guy, he can iso and pass well enough to be more effective in that type of offense.

Hood is dead money. In all the time I have followed the NBA only 2 guys have recovered to have a decent career after the injury. That was Wilkins and Rudy Gay, and it took them more than 2 years to return to effectiveness. Someone has to pay him $6 million to recover from his injury for the next year.

Look around the league, starting quality players on good contracts bring back a 1st and young rotation guy, moving the $6 million in dead money and this draft being so iffy makes this a damn good deal for Portland.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#522 » by NuggetsWY » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:40 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:Portland Trail Blazers Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Will Barton
44th overall pick

Outgoing Players
Rodney Hood
Zach Collins
16th overall pick

The Trailblazers desperately need a 4th guy, a guy who can capably play SF and can defend and spot up. It would be admitting the screwed up trading Barton, but I can see it working for them. Hood tore his achilles in December, he will likely miss a lot of next season, and I am not sure he will be anywhere close to as valuable going forward. Even Trailblazer fans are starting to admit that Collins is likely always going to be a backup big. They pick up a starter that local fans still seem to love for a backup big and a 1st round pick while dumping a bad salary, seems like a good deal to me.

Chicago Bulls Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Monte Morris
Rodney Hood
21st overall pick

Outgoing Players
Tomas Satoransky
Chandler Hutchison
Daniel Gafford
44th overall pick

The Bulls move from the 2nd round to the 1st, get a young PG that they desperately need, and dump a year off of Satoransky's deal by giving up Gafford and Hutchison. 2 guys that do not have high enough ceilings to be building blocks or take minutes from higher ceiling guys.


Denver Nuggets Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Zach Collins
Tomas Satoransky
Chandler Hutchison
Daniel Gafford
16th overall pick


Outgoing Players
Will Barton
Monte Morris
21st overall pick

Barton and Morris are both quality starters in this league, and a lot of teams need them as a 4th or 5th guy. We load up on young role players that are good enough to be in a quality rotation and maybe with development may work into starting quality. Collins is not going to be a star, but he has a solid mid range shot, is a shot blocker, and most importantly he likes to play rough and physical, exactly what we need out of a backup big. Hutchison is a good defender and solid spot up shooter, even playing injured half the season last year he was a clear upgrade on Craig and could still develop into a starting quality guy. Gafford is more of a hustle guy, he will likely never be a starter, but he is a guy every good team needs. Moving up from 21st to 16th should give us a better selection of the higher upside guys. The downside is taking back Satoransky, he is way overpaid but he still makes a very good 5th guard. A guy you can use when someone is hurt and he is a solid enough backup and he is only guaranteed for $5 million in 21/22 so he would make a solid trade chip at the deadline.


Love for that to happen but seems a little lite FOR Portland and a little lite FROM Denver. Also, does it work under the Cap? We move up in the draft, get several good young players we covet for Barton, Morris and taking on Sato's contract ??? Seems a bit overzealous, but I do like the way you think

Portland - I think they'd like Barton. I don't think they object to Hood for Barton but I suspect they value Collins higher than Barton. Trading a 1st for a 2nd on top of that? I just don't think they'd be interested. They need to get another solid rotation player and/or a decent 1st.

Chicago - Not sure how they'd feel about this trade but Morris gives them a solid, all-around, two-way combo-guard. I know many of their fans like some of their players, but I think they'd love Morris. Hood gives them a solid veteran that's fairly versatile. It seems to make sense for them.

Denver - I'm not sure what to say for Denver. I believe Morris will re-sign here, but for the right deal, he's tradeable. It's time to trade Barton IMO. I'd love to acquire Collins. I think he'd fit well in a Jokic-Grant-Porter lineup. Satoransky might make a nice fit in Denver. He could play either wing position and has a nice shot. He's not great on defense, but he's better than many give him credit for. This trade is a bit of a gamble for Denver, but I think it makes sense.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#523 » by TunaFish » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:35 pm

Barton comes with a caveat, he is so unpredictable that he is both a player you want to trade and you want to keep. While he plays great at times he also disappears at critical moments like two straight playoff appearances. The first he played but had to be benched because he was unplayable and that was probably because of injury. He missed the playoffs last season with injury but that's the crux of the issue, as both he and Harris are injured....a lot.

Like some have said, hard to see any interest from another team unless they think either could overcome their problems.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#524 » by DaVoiceMaster » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:30 pm

Blazers fan here. I was really pulling for you in the playoffs. There is so much to like about your team and they are two deep at every position. I'm jealous!!! I got a few questions about a couple of guys that may be available from Denver.

Will Barton interests me for the Blazers. What is Denver looking for in return? The Blazers have Ariza's $12.8 million contract which saves Denver a little money, but I can't imagine that's enough. What else would it take?

What's the word on Milsap? Is Denver going to move on or look to re-sign him? If Denver moves on, what type of salary do you think it would take to sign him? I'm wondering if he is an MLE contract or would he command more/less than that?

Thanks!
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#525 » by skywalker33 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:55 pm

DaVoiceMaster wrote:Blazers fan here. I was really pulling for you in the playoffs. There is so much to like about your team and they are two deep at every position. I'm jealous!!! I got a few questions about a couple of guys that may be available from Denver.

Will Barton interests me for the Blazers. What is Denver looking for in return? The Blazers have Ariza's $12.8 million contract which saves Denver a little money, but I can't imagine that's enough. What else would it take?

What's the word on Milsap? Is Denver going to move on or look to re-sign him? If Denver moves on, what type of salary do you think it would take to sign him? I'm wondering if he is an MLE contract or would he command more/less than that?

Thanks!


Welcome DVM, certainly Ariza for Barton doesn't appeal too much but Ariza's contract doesn't appear to be guaranteed for next year, perhaps adding in a 2nd or two would balance out. As for Millsap, I think the MLE would work, probably even a bit less but can't see going down to the veteran min for him, he'll get a better offer than that. Just my opinion though
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#526 » by DaVoiceMaster » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:05 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
DaVoiceMaster wrote:Blazers fan here. I was really pulling for you in the playoffs. There is so much to like about your team and they are two deep at every position. I'm jealous!!! I got a few questions about a couple of guys that may be available from Denver.

Will Barton interests me for the Blazers. What is Denver looking for in return? The Blazers have Ariza's $12.8 million contract which saves Denver a little money, but I can't imagine that's enough. What else would it take?

What's the word on Milsap? Is Denver going to move on or look to re-sign him? If Denver moves on, what type of salary do you think it would take to sign him? I'm wondering if he is an MLE contract or would he command more/less than that?

Thanks!


Welcome DVM, certainly Ariza for Barton doesn't appeal too much but Ariza's contract doesn't appear to be guaranteed for next year, perhaps adding in a 2nd or two would balance out. As for Millsap, I think the MLE would work, probably even a bit less but can't see going down to the veteran min for him, he'll get a better offer than that. Just my opinion though


Thanks sk33. I don't really know how the guarantee works or what the deadline is. I don't know if the Blazers could trade Ariza and then the incoming team simply does not guarantee the contract, shedding the salary. I kind of thought the time to do that had past, but I really don't know. If that is the case, his contract could become valuable to some teams looking to shred salary. Portland loves to trade 2nd round picks so that shouldn't be a problem. I definitely do not see Milsap as a vets minimum contract just yet. Maybe in another year or two. I was curious if the MLE for 2 years with a 3rd year team option (or unguaranteed) would be in the realm of possibility? The Blazers made a play for him years ago and really strapped Utah who matched the contract. The next summer, the Blazers went after Wes Matthews knowing Utah could not match his contract. Appreciate the info.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#527 » by NuggetsWY » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:41 pm

DaVoiceMaster wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
DaVoiceMaster wrote:Blazers fan here. I was really pulling for you in the playoffs. There is so much to like about your team and they are two deep at every position. I'm jealous!!! I got a few questions about a couple of guys that may be available from Denver.

Will Barton interests me for the Blazers. What is Denver looking for in return? The Blazers have Ariza's $12.8 million contract which saves Denver a little money, but I can't imagine that's enough. What else would it take?

What's the word on Milsap? Is Denver going to move on or look to re-sign him? If Denver moves on, what type of salary do you think it would take to sign him? I'm wondering if he is an MLE contract or would he command more/less than that?

Thanks!

Welcome DVM, certainly Ariza for Barton doesn't appeal too much but Ariza's contract doesn't appear to be guaranteed for next year, perhaps adding in a 2nd or two would balance out. As for Millsap, I think the MLE would work, probably even a bit less but can't see going down to the veteran min for him, he'll get a better offer than that. Just my opinion though


Thanks sk33. I don't really know how the guarantee works or what the deadline is. I don't know if the Blazers could trade Ariza and then the incoming team simply does not guarantee the contract, shedding the salary. I kind of thought the time to do that had past, but I really don't know. If that is the case, his contract could become valuable to some teams looking to shred salary. Portland loves to trade 2nd round picks so that shouldn't be a problem. I definitely do not see Milsap as a vets minimum contract just yet. Maybe in another year or two. I was curious if the MLE for 2 years with a 3rd year team option (or unguaranteed) would be in the realm of possibility? The Blazers made a play for him years ago and really strapped Utah who matched the contract. The next summer, the Blazers went after Wes Matthews knowing Utah could not match his contract. Appreciate the info.

I'll throw in 1.5 cents worth (I don't value my opinion very high :lol: ).

Totally agree with Sky on both Ariza for Barton -and- regarding Millsap.

Since I lived in Portland for 9 years (during the first Rip City Days), I'm always watching the Blazers. Teams seldom trade for players they've traded away but in this case, I actually think Portland just might do it. Barton looks like a great fit for Portland and I suspect Denver would be interested in shedding his salary along the lines of what's being discussed here. It wouldn't hurt us as much with Ariza's shorter contract and adding him to our bench for a year or two would actually work in my opinion.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#528 » by The Rebel » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:20 am

DaVoiceMaster wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
DaVoiceMaster wrote:Blazers fan here. I was really pulling for you in the playoffs. There is so much to like about your team and they are two deep at every position. I'm jealous!!! I got a few questions about a couple of guys that may be available from Denver.

Will Barton interests me for the Blazers. What is Denver looking for in return? The Blazers have Ariza's $12.8 million contract which saves Denver a little money, but I can't imagine that's enough. What else would it take?

What's the word on Milsap? Is Denver going to move on or look to re-sign him? If Denver moves on, what type of salary do you think it would take to sign him? I'm wondering if he is an MLE contract or would he command more/less than that?

Thanks!


Welcome DVM, certainly Ariza for Barton doesn't appeal too much but Ariza's contract doesn't appear to be guaranteed for next year, perhaps adding in a 2nd or two would balance out. As for Millsap, I think the MLE would work, probably even a bit less but can't see going down to the veteran min for him, he'll get a better offer than that. Just my opinion though


Thanks sk33. I don't really know how the guarantee works or what the deadline is. I don't know if the Blazers could trade Ariza and then the incoming team simply does not guarantee the contract, shedding the salary. I kind of thought the time to do that had past, but I really don't know. If that is the case, his contract could become valuable to some teams looking to shred salary. Portland loves to trade 2nd round picks so that shouldn't be a problem. I definitely do not see Milsap as a vets minimum contract just yet. Maybe in another year or two. I was curious if the MLE for 2 years with a 3rd year team option (or unguaranteed) would be in the realm of possibility? The Blazers made a play for him years ago and really strapped Utah who matched the contract. The next summer, the Blazers went after Wes Matthews knowing Utah could not match his contract. Appreciate the info.


For non guaranteed deals It depends on how the NBA handles things going into the draft and after the draft. Usually you can trade players from the time your season ends to the end of the draft and have their current salary count towards the deal, so for Ariza this year's full salary would have counted. However once the draft is done the moratorium starts and after that you have to use the unguaranteed year of Ariza's deal. The issue with trading non-guaranteed deals is that the team trading the player only gets to include the guaranteed portion of the salary while the team receiving a player has to claim the full contract amount. Making trades hard to accomplish with the rules for matching contracts. For Ariza and Barton to be the basis of the deal you would have to include $10 million more in salary but the Nuggets would not be able to take that much back so both teams would have to increase the salary leaving until it works within the 125% rule.

That being said I strongly disagree with many other Nuggets fans that think the team will give away Barton, they are going to want real value if they even trade him. While Barton putting up 15.1/6.3/3.7 on 55% TS% is not amazing, he allowed 33.2% shooting from 3 on guys he guarded and hit 40% from 3 on spot up shots. In fact it is arguable that Barton was our 2nd best defender throughout the year, better than Millsap and Grant. He is also reportedly great and well loved in the lockerroom and is only making $14.3 million on average over the next 2 years.

Many fans have turned on barton for a couple of reasons. The worst is that he panics and tries to take over games, and it has cost us some games and won us a few. Now I have heard his 1st couple of years here they encouraged him too take over, but these last 2 they have openly talked about him playing off ball more. The other issue is that his game is not a great fit for the Nuggets, he is at his best when he gets his share of touches and can create for himself and others. I do think a change of scenery and playing with guys who he was not the veteran mentor would help him, so I think he would do better in Portland.

Now he does have his downside but make no mistake Barton is a very valuable player in today's NBA. I think at a minimum the Nuggets are going to want Zach Collins to even start the conversation and you would have to put Hood in there to make the deal work so the Nuggets would likely want compensation for taking back his bad deal as well.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#529 » by skywalker33 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:44 pm

The Rebel wrote:
DaVoiceMaster wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
Welcome DVM, certainly Ariza for Barton doesn't appeal too much but Ariza's contract doesn't appear to be guaranteed for next year, perhaps adding in a 2nd or two would balance out. As for Millsap, I think the MLE would work, probably even a bit less but can't see going down to the veteran min for him, he'll get a better offer than that. Just my opinion though


Thanks sk33. I don't really know how the guarantee works or what the deadline is. I don't know if the Blazers could trade Ariza and then the incoming team simply does not guarantee the contract, shedding the salary. I kind of thought the time to do that had past, but I really don't know. If that is the case, his contract could become valuable to some teams looking to shred salary. Portland loves to trade 2nd round picks so that shouldn't be a problem. I definitely do not see Milsap as a vets minimum contract just yet. Maybe in another year or two. I was curious if the MLE for 2 years with a 3rd year team option (or unguaranteed) would be in the realm of possibility? The Blazers made a play for him years ago and really strapped Utah who matched the contract. The next summer, the Blazers went after Wes Matthews knowing Utah could not match his contract. Appreciate the info.


For non guaranteed deals It depends on how the NBA handles things going into the draft and after the draft. Usually you can trade players from the time your season ends to the end of the draft and have their current salary count towards the deal, so for Ariza this year's full salary would have counted. However once the draft is done the moratorium starts and after that you have to use the unguaranteed year of Ariza's deal. The issue with trading non-guaranteed deals is that the team trading the player only gets to include the guaranteed portion of the salary while the team receiving a player has to claim the full contract amount. Making trades hard to accomplish with the rules for matching contracts. For Ariza and Barton to be the basis of the deal you would have to include $10 million more in salary but the Nuggets would not be able to take that much back so both teams would have to increase the salary leaving until it works within the 125% rule.

That being said I strongly disagree with many other Nuggets fans that think the team will give away Barton, they are going to want real value if they even trade him. While Barton putting up 15.1/6.3/3.7 on 55% TS% is not amazing, he allowed 33.2% shooting from 3 on guys he guarded and hit 40% from 3 on spot up shots. In fact it is arguable that Barton was our 2nd best defender throughout the year, better than Millsap and Grant. He is also reportedly great and well loved in the lockerroom and is only making $14.3 million on average over the next 2 years.

Many fans have turned on barton for a couple of reasons. The worst is that he panics and tries to take over games, and it has cost us some games and won us a few. Now I have heard his 1st couple of years here they encouraged him too take over, but these last 2 they have openly talked about him playing off ball more. The other issue is that his game is not a great fit for the Nuggets, he is at his best when he gets his share of touches and can create for himself and others. I do think a change of scenery and playing with guys who he was not the veteran mentor would help him, so I think he would do better in Portland.

Now he does have his downside but make no mistake Barton is a very valuable player in today's NBA. I think at a minimum the Nuggets are going to want Zach Collins to even start the conversation and you would have to put Hood in there to make the deal work so the Nuggets would likely want compensation for taking back his bad deal as well.


Rebel, while I applaud your defense of Barton to this team, during the playoffs it was revealed how this team doesn't need his heroics. Your description of BArton to this team also establishes his value to other teams IMO. I agree he has some value, and I too love the idea of Zach Collins on this team, a straight-up 1-for-1 not only wouldn't be cap feasible (unless POR could take him into one of their TPE's) it would be highway robbery for us IMO. So adding the negative value of Hood with his injury would offset the value IMO, perhaps adding a 2nd (which we have had success within the 2nd round) would equalize the value. Not sure how POR see's Collins value but Barton's game would be advantageous at the SF position for them.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#530 » by TunaFish » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:24 pm

Just as I thought, Bogdan Bogdanovic is being tossed around in trade talks. The Bucks have allowed the rumor to be leaked that they are interested. Not sure what they have in assets to trade but the intent is likely.

This is the trade I would love to see the Nuggets make. G. Harris and Morris plus #1 pick might get it done.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#531 » by The Rebel » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:15 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
Spoiler:
The Rebel wrote:
DaVoiceMaster wrote:
Thanks sk33. I don't really know how the guarantee works or what the deadline is. I don't know if the Blazers could trade Ariza and then the incoming team simply does not guarantee the contract, shedding the salary. I kind of thought the time to do that had past, but I really don't know. If that is the case, his contract could become valuable to some teams looking to shred salary. Portland loves to trade 2nd round picks so that shouldn't be a problem. I definitely do not see Milsap as a vets minimum contract just yet. Maybe in another year or two. I was curious if the MLE for 2 years with a 3rd year team option (or unguaranteed) would be in the realm of possibility? The Blazers made a play for him years ago and really strapped Utah who matched the contract. The next summer, the Blazers went after Wes Matthews knowing Utah could not match his contract. Appreciate the info.


For non guaranteed deals It depends on how the NBA handles things going into the draft and after the draft. Usually you can trade players from the time your season ends to the end of the draft and have their current salary count towards the deal, so for Ariza this year's full salary would have counted. However once the draft is done the moratorium starts and after that you have to use the unguaranteed year of Ariza's deal. The issue with trading non-guaranteed deals is that the team trading the player only gets to include the guaranteed portion of the salary while the team receiving a player has to claim the full contract amount. Making trades hard to accomplish with the rules for matching contracts. For Ariza and Barton to be the basis of the deal you would have to include $10 million more in salary but the Nuggets would not be able to take that much back so both teams would have to increase the salary leaving until it works within the 125% rule.

That being said I strongly disagree with many other Nuggets fans that think the team will give away Barton, they are going to want real value if they even trade him. While Barton putting up 15.1/6.3/3.7 on 55% TS% is not amazing, he allowed 33.2% shooting from 3 on guys he guarded and hit 40% from 3 on spot up shots. In fact it is arguable that Barton was our 2nd best defender throughout the year, better than Millsap and Grant. He is also reportedly great and well loved in the lockerroom and is only making $14.3 million on average over the next 2 years.

Many fans have turned on barton for a couple of reasons. The worst is that he panics and tries to take over games, and it has cost us some games and won us a few. Now I have heard his 1st couple of years here they encouraged him too take over, but these last 2 they have openly talked about him playing off ball more. The other issue is that his game is not a great fit for the Nuggets, he is at his best when he gets his share of touches and can create for himself and others. I do think a change of scenery and playing with guys who he was not the veteran mentor would help him, so I think he would do better in Portland.

Now he does have his downside but make no mistake Barton is a very valuable player in today's NBA. I think at a minimum the Nuggets are going to want Zach Collins to even start the conversation and you would have to put Hood in there to make the deal work so the Nuggets would likely want compensation for taking back his bad deal as well.


Rebel, while I applaud your defense of Barton to this team, during the playoffs it was revealed how this team doesn't need his heroics. Your description of BArton to this team also establishes his value to other teams IMO. I agree he has some value, and I too love the idea of Zach Collins on this team, a straight-up 1-for-1 not only wouldn't be cap feasible (unless POR could take him into one of their TPE's) it would be highway robbery for us IMO. So adding the negative value of Hood with his injury would offset the value IMO, perhaps adding a 2nd (which we have had success within the 2nd round) would equalize the value. Not sure how POR see's Collins value but Barton's game would be advantageous at the SF position for them.



I never thought i would be defending Bartin against Nuggets fans, it is not secret I have never liked his fit.

That being said his hero play and his wanting to be a starter are the only reason he is on the block.

You guys should go read through other team's trade threads on their boards. It seems like every team is looking for a 2/3 that can defend the 3 point line and hit spot up shots.

Barton is elite at both. There are only about 5-7 starters in the league that do better against the 3 than Barton (1 of them is Harris). 40.9% on spot ups from the 3 line has always been considered elite.

Let me say this again, Barton is elite at the most in demand skills in the league. Warts and all those 2 elite skills creates a huge market and a great price for a team willing to give that up.

As for Collins, you view him much higher than I or most Portlannd fans do. He is a spread backup 5. He is not quick enough to guard the top spread 4s and not strong enough against most starting Centers. Add in his injury history and tendency to be foul prone and he is not a huge value. He just fits what we need perfectly.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#532 » by NuggetsWY » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:40 am

The Rebel wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
Spoiler:
The Rebel wrote:For non guaranteed deals It depends on how the NBA handles things going into the draft and after the draft. Usually you can trade players from the time your season ends to the end of the draft and have their current salary count towards the deal, so for Ariza this year's full salary would have counted. However once the draft is done the moratorium starts and after that you have to use the unguaranteed year of Ariza's deal. The issue with trading non-guaranteed deals is that the team trading the player only gets to include the guaranteed portion of the salary while the team receiving a player has to claim the full contract amount. Making trades hard to accomplish with the rules for matching contracts. For Ariza and Barton to be the basis of the deal you would have to include $10 million more in salary but the Nuggets would not be able to take that much back so both teams would have to increase the salary leaving until it works within the 125% rule.

That being said I strongly disagree with many other Nuggets fans that think the team will give away Barton, they are going to want real value if they even trade him. While Barton putting up 15.1/6.3/3.7 on 55% TS% is not amazing, he allowed 33.2% shooting from 3 on guys he guarded and hit 40% from 3 on spot up shots. In fact it is arguable that Barton was our 2nd best defender throughout the year, better than Millsap and Grant. He is also reportedly great and well loved in the lockerroom and is only making $14.3 million on average over the next 2 years.

Many fans have turned on barton for a couple of reasons. The worst is that he panics and tries to take over games, and it has cost us some games and won us a few. Now I have heard his 1st couple of years here they encouraged him too take over, but these last 2 they have openly talked about him playing off ball more. The other issue is that his game is not a great fit for the Nuggets, he is at his best when he gets his share of touches and can create for himself and others. I do think a change of scenery and playing with guys who he was not the veteran mentor would help him, so I think he would do better in Portland.

Now he does have his downside but make no mistake Barton is a very valuable player in today's NBA. I think at a minimum the Nuggets are going to want Zach Collins to even start the conversation and you would have to put Hood in there to make the deal work so the Nuggets would likely want compensation for taking back his bad deal as well.

Rebel, while I applaud your defense of Barton to this team, during the playoffs it was revealed how this team doesn't need his heroics. Your description of BArton to this team also establishes his value to other teams IMO. I agree he has some value, and I too love the idea of Zach Collins on this team, a straight-up 1-for-1 not only wouldn't be cap feasible (unless POR could take him into one of their TPE's) it would be highway robbery for us IMO. So adding the negative value of Hood with his injury would offset the value IMO, perhaps adding a 2nd (which we have had success within the 2nd round) would equalize the value. Not sure how POR see's Collins value but Barton's game would be advantageous at the SF position for them.



I never thought i would be defending Bartin against Nuggets fans, it is not secret I have never liked his fit.

That being said his hero play and his wanting to be a starter are the only reason he is on the block.

You guys should go read through other team's trade threads on their boards. It seems like every team is looking for a 2/3 that can defend the 3 point line and hit spot up shots.

Barton is elite at both. There are only about 5-7 starters in the league that do better against the 3 than Barton (1 of them is Harris). 40.9% on spot ups from the 3 line has always been considered elite.

Let me say this again, Barton is elite at the most in demand skills in the league. Warts and all those 2 elite skills creates a huge market and a great price for a team willing to give that up.

As for Collins, you view him much higher than I or most Portlannd fans do. He is a spread backup 5. He is not quick enough to guard the top spread 4s and not strong enough against most starting Centers. Add in his injury history and tendency to be foul prone and he is not a huge value. He just fits what we need perfectly.

I'll sit somewhere between the extremes - except for the fact that our coach has an unrealistic concept of Barton's value.

Barton, off the bench, can be the scorer our bench needs. When he has a hot shooting night, give him more minutes. When he is not hot, keep his minutes limited to the minutes when Jokic and/or Murray are resting. Unfortunately, I just don't believe Malone will take that approach.

Therefore I would prefer we trade Barton - and yes, I do believe he has some reasonable trade value.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#533 » by skywalker33 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:19 am

The Rebel wrote:
I never thought i would be defending Bartin against Nuggets fans, it is not secret I have never liked his fit.


Who would have :lol:

The Rebel wrote:That being said his hero play and his wanting to be a starter are the only reason he is on the block.


Well, I also think his playoff performances, or lack thereof, have to contribute as well. When he wasn't missed all that much this playoffs, put the writing on the wall IMO.

The Rebel wrote:You guys should go read through other team's trade threads on their boards. It seems like every team is looking for a 2/3 that can defend the 3 point line and hit spot up shots.


Well if the need is so high there, it's apparent that other teams don't see him in that light, else where are those lottery pick offers ?

The Rebel wrote:As for Collins, you view him much higher than I or most Portland fans do. He is a spread backup 5. He is not quick enough to guard the top spread 4s and not strong enough against most starting Centers. Add in his injury history and tendency to be foul prone and he is not a huge value. He just fits what we need perfectly.


I do see the value in Collins, and I really liked him coming out of college and think he still has a high ceiling, especially compared to Barton.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#534 » by The Rebel » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:20 am

skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
I never thought i would be defending Bartin against Nuggets fans, it is not secret I have never liked his fit.


Who would have :lol:

The Rebel wrote:That being said his hero play and his wanting to be a starter are the only reason he is on the block.


Well, I also think his playoff performances, or lack thereof, have to contribute as well. When he wasn't missed all that much this playoffs, put the writing on the wall IMO.


I could easily argue that he was missed pretty badly against the Jazz and Clippers, and that neither of those series should have gone to 7 games. Now he may have cost us a series, but it is Malone that chooses to leave him out there and let him go on his crazy runs all the time.

As fans we only count the good side or the bad side of a player. We all know that Jokic is not a shot blocker, some cannot get past that to see the good he does on the perimeter and cutting off drives where he can get steals. He is almost always top 5 in deflections and a lot of time guards get those steals. Some of us see Murray creating and running the offense when Jokic is off the court or being doubled, yet others only notice when Jokic is running the offense and Murray is playing off ball. To them he is a terrible PG, to me he shows how talented he is by being able to play both roles so effectively, not many in the league can do that. It is the same with Barton. He drives us all nuts, he tries to take over games and within minutes the leads are deficits. He cannot seem to stay in our offense, yet he is a willing passer and can seem to keep the offense rolling at time when Jokic and/or Murray are off the court. We see the turnovers and bad shots. He can hold a guy like Paul George 1-7 in a half, but we only remember the 1 drive George got by him.

Even with Millsap slowing down we were a top 5 defense for the 1st 6 weeks of the season, then Millsap got hurt, then Harris missed a couple of games, then Barton was out a few, mixed in were Jokic and Murray picking up assorted injuries they were playing through. IN the end we ended up middle the pack, and that was being the worst defense in the league for those 8 games in the bubble.

Remember how rare it was to see Jokic or Murray get effectively doubled when we had our starting lineup? A big part of that was Barton's shooting.

skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:You guys should go read through other team's trade threads on their boards. It seems like every team is looking for a 2/3 that can defend the 3 point line and hit spot up shots.


Well if the need is so high there, it's apparent that other teams don't see him in that light, else where are those lottery pick offers ?


I think as fans when we want a player traded that we assume they are on the block. Do you know that Scott Hastings used to laugh when people would call in or text that Barton needed to be traded? All the Nuggets beat reporters used to laugh about it. About a year ago I finally started to question why, and I watched him a lot of games. I listen to the radio interviews, and all they ever talked about was how much of a leader he is in the lockerroom. How much he does that the average fan does not notice. Last year that started to change, but even heading into the trade deadline Hastings was saying that the only way Harris or Barton were getting traded was for a all star that was a great fit. Now they avoid the questions about both Harris and Barton, so I think they are on the block now, but they weren't on the block up until now if you pay attention to what the media reports.

skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:As for Collins, you view him much higher than I or most Portland fans do. He is a spread backup 5. He is not quick enough to guard the top spread 4s and not strong enough against most starting Centers. Add in his injury history and tendency to be foul prone and he is not a huge value. He just fits what we need perfectly.


I do see the value in Collins, and I really liked him coming out of college and think he still has a high ceiling, especially compared to Barton.



I was pissed when the pick they used to jump us and pick Collins was the pick we gave them with Nurkic. Still pisses me off.


The thing you are missing is that Centers have been devalued in today's NBA. the Rockets did not even have 1 in the rotation for half the year. If you are not a star quality than you are JAG and nobody pays crap for them anymore. Collins has been in the league for 3 years, a year from now the Trailblazers are going to have to give him a big contract or lose him for a 2nd round pick to a team that hopes he can fulfill that potential. Having him miss most of the season hurt his develop, and the ability for the Blazers to see what he will become. If they want to keep him they will have to overpay to do it because we all know there are GMs that are going to believe that he has the talent that made him a lotto pick and they can unlock it, so they overpay for that guy. Next year they either overpay or sign and trade him for a protected 2nd.

The position that is overvalued, is SG/SFs that can play defense even if they have a marginal 3 point shot. Look at the deals guys like Ariza, BAzemore, Crabbe, and Ross all signed in the last couple of years, teams are desperate for a guy who can defend 2/3s on the perimeter especially if they can hit a jumpshot. You cannot look at those guys stats and advanced stats and convince me that any of them were better the year before they signed their contract than Barton was this year. Teams are begging for guys like Barton.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#535 » by skywalker33 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:03 pm

Rebel, it's hard to disagree with you, I have often said you should be the team's GM but I also see you as a bit overzealous with your Nuggets logic, not sure other teams see it as you do.

I agree that many a wing gets way overpaid, but some GM's are just plain idiots. I like Barton but still have a hard time considering him as a defensive stalwart, no issues with his offensive prowess though, he'd surely help many teams out. And not many teams know what kind of a good leadership influence he's been here too. If we can get what you believe he's worth, I'll gladly eat crow, probably while I'm doing my happy dance. Not to say I couldn't be ok with him here still, prefer him off the bench but I still say trade him to clear cap space as well as hit the market while his value is still somewhat high.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#536 » by The Rebel » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:25 am

One thing to watch for this offseason is going to be which teams are in financial trouble without fans. A lot of these teams break even or are in negative cash flow situations every season and if the league keeps the salary cap frozen like is rumored than playing in empty arenas is going to scare some teams into getting as close to the salary floor as possible.


Everybody knows Fertita overpaid for the Rockets and his income comes from the hospitality industry, I think most expect him to be dumping salary even more. While those of us who pay attention know that Stan Kroenke hates debt so the Nuggets are not likely in financial trouble, with his investments in all sports struggling does he cut payroll? Which other teams may be in financial trouble?
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#537 » by TunaFish » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:31 pm

The Rebel wrote:One thing to watch for this offseason is going to be which teams are in financial trouble without fans. A lot of these teams break even or are in negative cash flow situations every season and if the league keeps the salary cap frozen like is rumored than playing in empty arenas is going to scare some teams into getting as close to the salary floor as possible.


Everybody knows Fertita overpaid for the Rockets and his income comes from the hospitality industry, I think most expect him to be dumping salary even more. While those of us who pay attention know that Stan Kroenke hates debt so the Nuggets are not likely in financial trouble, with his investments in all sports struggling does he cut payroll? Which other teams may be in financial trouble?


I read your first sentence and knew you were talking about Houston without reading the rest, it's that obvious. Does that mean they will trade Harden? Both Harden and Westbrook are at 40 million a year in salary and that's a lot to take on.

Stan Kroenke, like everyone, will have some exposure but the core of his business is construction. Stan may hate to take on debt because he doesn't have to. However, (at least on paper) he placed ownership control of the Nuggets with his wife, the heir of the Walmart fortune, who is even richer than Stan. Walmart has feasted during the pandemic, their stock is soaring.

That doesn't mean that the Kroenke's won't be as cheap as possible but they have the assets to do as they please. If there was ever a time to take advantage of the situation and pay the luxury tax, this might be it.

Would the Nuggets try to trade for Harden?
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#538 » by skywalker33 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:05 pm

TunaFish wrote:Would the Nuggets try to trade for Harden?


Please, bite your tongue, I would HATE Harden on this team. He (and Westbrook) are good players but I believe they would destroy this teams chemistry.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#539 » by The Rebel » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:45 pm

TunaFish wrote:
The Rebel wrote:One thing to watch for this offseason is going to be which teams are in financial trouble without fans. A lot of these teams break even or are in negative cash flow situations every season and if the league keeps the salary cap frozen like is rumored than playing in empty arenas is going to scare some teams into getting as close to the salary floor as possible.


Everybody knows Fertita overpaid for the Rockets and his income comes from the hospitality industry, I think most expect him to be dumping salary even more. While those of us who pay attention know that Stan Kroenke hates debt so the Nuggets are not likely in financial trouble, with his investments in all sports struggling does he cut payroll? Which other teams may be in financial trouble?


I read your first sentence and knew you were talking about Houston without reading the rest, it's that obvious. Does that mean they will trade Harden? Both Harden and Westbrook are at 40 million a year in salary and that's a lot to take on.

Stan Kroenke, like everyone, will have some exposure but the core of his business is construction. Stan may hate to take on debt because he doesn't have to. However, (at least on paper) he placed ownership control of the Nuggets with his wife, the heir of the Walmart fortune, who is even richer than Stan. Walmart has feasted during the pandemic, their stock is soaring.

That doesn't mean that the Kroenke's won't be as cheap as possible but they have the assets to do as they please. If there was ever a time to take advantage of the situation and pay the luxury tax, this might be it.


While the team was put into Stan's wife name, we all know that Stan still controls the team with Josh as the official owner rep.

Although Stan made his money building shopping centers, mainly for Target, Kohls, and Walmart. Those are all in significant danger of being outdated as this whole plandemic has shifted more people to online shopping.

A significant amount of his holdings are now sport franchises, and every 1 of them is hurting.

Now we know that he has owed very little on any of his teams throughout the years, but is he going to open up the checkbook in the current market? Right now we have the perfect opportunity but I am unsure if he will let it pass.

Also Arison of the Heat owns a cruise line, they have been shut down for months now. Other ownership groups make their money in retail and hospitality as well.
TunaFish wrote:Would the Nuggets try to trade for Harden?

Like Sky I hope not. Harden on this team would ruin Jokic and take away the advantage we have.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#540 » by NuggetsWY » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:28 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
TunaFish wrote:Would the Nuggets try to trade for Harden?

Please, bite your tongue, I would HATE Harden on this team. He (and Westbrook) are good players but I believe they would destroy this teams chemistry.

If they trade for Harden, they might as well trade Jokic & Murray. Harden's game is predicated on his pounding the ball. Yes, he can pass, and yes, he can catch-and-shoot, and yes, he can initiate the offense. But the key to all of that is "Harden" and rightfully so. Like him or not, he is that good and deserves the credit he is given and much more. But Harden needs outside shooters and mobile bigs. (So maybe we'd only have to trade Jokic. :lol: )

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