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Nuggets Trades

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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#781 » by THE J0KER » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:39 pm

Harris, Barton, FRP2022, and Bol
for
Jrue, S&T 10/3 Okafor, #39 and #60
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#782 » by skywalker33 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:40 pm

THE J0KER wrote:Harris, Barton, FRP2022, and Bol
for
Jrue, S&T 10/3 Okafor, #39 and #60


Reportedly, last year we only offered Barton and Harris, now a season later you've offered a 1st (albeit an expected lower one) along with one of our top prospects for Jrue, a plyer (Okafor) who doesn't really fit our system and 2 2nds's one be a higher and then the last pick which won't make this team. Take out Okafor and Bol and I'd be better with it. Seems you're really set on THIS deal.

Just who do you believe we are bidding against for Jrue ?? PHX is out, Lakers don't have the ammo, MIA is saving their $$ for Giannis, IND doesn't have the need with Brogdon & Olad, Clippers doesn't have the assets, I don't see a lot of other suitors for him. Feels to me the longer we wait, the lower the price should go, not the other way around. He gets older and closer to Free Agency.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#783 » by NuggetsWY » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:39 pm

Manolito wrote:Oubre and Barton´s salaries match perfectly. Adding two second rounds is enough to convince OKC?

Oubre as Porter's backup? Keep Porter on the bench? Plus there's Bates-Diop and I'm betting they sign Craig. Just don't see Oubre as fitting on the Nuggets.
THE J0KER wrote:Harris, Barton, FRP2022, and Bol for Jrue, S&T 10/3 Okafor, #39 and #60

Overpay - Harris & Barton for Jrue Holiday is an overpay, but I could live with it. Jrue is a one year rental unless the Nuggets get a "gentleman's agreement" for the future. I don't think New Orleans would be too interested in this deal unless they are making another deal. They probably think they can do better than this, unless Denver does include Bol and New Orleans really believes in him (I'd rather keep him). They are probably starting Ball & Redick with Ingram at SF. They'll probably keep Moore as their veteran guard as a backup and they have some young talent to develop. Let's face it, they aren't contenders next year. Their target is playoffs with a hope of a first round victory. Harris plus Barton is a lot of salary for bench players.

Why trade for Okafor? If you want him, I do believe he's a free agent and his salary isn't going to hurt at all. He's not a perfect backup center, but he's not a terrible choice at all.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#784 » by The Rebel » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:49 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
The Rebel wrote:Chicago Bulls Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Monte Morris, Aaron Gordon, 21st overall pick

Outgoing Players
Tomas Satoransky, Chandler Hutchison, Daniel Gafford, 4th overall pick

Chicago picks up 2 starters that would fit well around Lavine and Markennen while making a big move back to 21st. It dumps the guys they do not want to build around, with the reported focus being Lavine and Markennen, with Cody White as a bench scorer for as he develops. they also dump Satoransky's big deal.



Orlando Magic Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Will Barton, Tomas Satoransky, 4th overall pick

Outgoing Players
Aaron Gordon, Evan Fournier, 15th overall pick, 45th overall pick

I think even the Orlando fans know that without Isaac next year is not looking good. Reportedly they were hoping that Fournier would opt out and are shopping Gordon. This deal gets them into the top 5 while getting a couple of 2 way veterans that can keep them respectable and attitudes up in the locker room while their 4th pick and other young guys develop.


Denver Nuggets Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Chandler Hutchison, Daniel Gafford, Evan Fournier, 15th overall pick. 45th pick

Outgoing Players
Will Barton, Monte Morris, 21st overall pick

Denver trades 2 starting quality players for 2 young role players and a guy who could be the best bench scorer in the league next year. For that they move up from 21st to 15th overall and grab a 2nd round pick. Founier is paid as a starter for 1 more year, but he has shown he is not a true number 1 scorer, he can be a great bench scorer though. With the 15th they should be able to draft one of Vassell, Bey, or Hampton with the 45th you can grab Azubuike. If we re-sign Grant it leaves us a lineup of

Murray/ Dozier/ Hampton
Harris/ Fournier/
MPJ/ Hutchison/ Cancar
Grant/ Bol/ KBD
Jokic/ Gafford /Azubuike

I think that is a contender within the next 2 years.


C'mon REBEL, get real....it should be the 22nd pick 8-)

To me, this is the type of trade we need to look at. These are guys to solidify our bench, allow future cap space sooner while playing to our strength in getting higher/ more draft picks.


I don't know why I keep thinking we have the 21st pick. I guess you can tell how much attention I have been paying to the draft this year.

I agree that this is the way we should be going, our starters were not the problem last year, and if MPJ takes the step we all expect him too than adding another big name is not going to have near the benefit we could find by fixing our bench. We struggled after trading Juancho and Beasley, this gets us guys who can replace what they brought and a young big. We will have big decisions to make over the next couple of years in re-signing guys or trading them, but that is a good problem to have.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#785 » by The Rebel » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:52 pm

Manolito wrote:Oubre and Barton´s salaries match perfectly. Adding two second rounds is enough to convince OKC?


I wouldn't trade Barton for Oubre and 2 2nd round picks, Oubre is one of the worst defenders in the league, and Barton is well above average. The slight uptick in offense is not even close to being worth the downgrade on defense.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#786 » by The Rebel » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:54 pm

THE J0KER wrote:Harris, Barton, FRP2022, and Bol
for
Jrue, S&T 10/3 Okafor, #39 and #60


So we increase our offer a pick and a good prospect and get stuck with a bad backup Center, easy pass for me.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#787 » by THE J0KER » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:55 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:Harris, Barton, FRP2022, and Bol
for
Jrue, S&T 10/3 Okafor, #39 and #60


Reportedly, last year we only offered Barton and Harris, now a season later you've offered a 1st (albeit an expected lower one) along with one of our top prospects for Jrue, a plyer (Okafor) who doesn't really fit our system and 2 2nds's one be a higher and then the last pick which won't make this team. Take out Okafor and Bol and I'd be better with it. Seems you're really set on THIS deal.

Just who do you believe we are bidding against for Jrue ?? PHX is out, Lakers don't have the ammo, MIA is saving their $$ for Giannis, IND doesn't have the need with Brogdon & Olad, Clippers doesn't have the assets, I don't see a lot of other suitors for him. Feels to me the longer we wait, the lower the price should go, not the other way around. He gets older and closer to Free Agency.

Fact that we offered Barton and Harris already before for Holiday, but Pelicans rejected that offer tells me that we didn't offer enough. I agree that Jrue trade value is lower today than in February, but the same we can say about Barton after serious injury and Harris after his offense instead of recovery even more collapse. Okafor is not a perfect backup center, but 10/3 for Okafor is better solution in these 10-15 minutes we needs him, than 40/3 Plumli.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#788 » by The Rebel » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:59 pm

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Bulls are looking for a PG.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#789 » by skywalker33 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:36 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:Harris, Barton, FRP2022, and Bol
for
Jrue, S&T 10/3 Okafor, #39 and #60


Reportedly, last year we only offered Barton and Harris, now a season later you've offered a 1st (albeit an expected lower one) along with one of our top prospects for Jrue, a plyer (Okafor) who doesn't really fit our system and 2 2nds's one be a higher and then the last pick which won't make this team. Take out Okafor and Bol and I'd be better with it. Seems you're really set on THIS deal.

Just who do you believe we are bidding against for Jrue ?? PHX is out, Lakers don't have the ammo, MIA is saving their $$ for Giannis, IND doesn't have the need with Brogdon & Olad, Clippers doesn't have the assets, I don't see a lot of other suitors for him. Feels to me the longer we wait, the lower the price should go, not the other way around. He gets older and closer to Free Agency.

Fact that we offered Barton and Harris already before for Holiday, but Pelicans rejected that offer tells me that we didn't offer enough. I agree that Jrue trade value is lower today than in February, but the same we can say about Barton after serious injury and Harris after his offense instead of recovery even more collapse. Okafor is not a perfect backup center, but 10/3 for Okafor is better solution in these 10-15 minutes we needs him, than 40/3 Plumli.


Well the fact he didn’t get traded tells me the sellers were overpriced in their expectations
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#790 » by The Rebel » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:54 pm

There are 3 big issues I see with chasing a star. The biggest 1 is that in 2 years we have to reup MPJ and are only guaranteed Jokic for 3 more years, adding a big name today means that whether they are signed for 3 years or not we will have to re-sign that guy, and we will be deep into the luxury tax going forward. Now I fully expect Kroenke to pay when the time comes, but if we are still going to struggle due to lack of depth than who cares? The 2nd issue is the law of diminishing returns, we don't need a 4th star. The last issue is our complete lack of quality depth.

One thing that leaves me shaking my head is the whole chasing of big names. Did anybody watch the 76ers their year (Their starters were one of the best lineups in the league yet their bench costs them a lot of games)? The old 4 star Lakers with Kobe, Shaq, and company? At the end of the day you get diminishing returns, there is only 1 ball and Jokic and Murray are incredibly efficient scorers, with MPJ having the chance to be as well, so we really do not struggle to score when they are on the court. What people forget is that all 4 stars of the Warriors had to be happy with not getting their usual stats, especially Green had to focus on defense and was basically only defense for 4 years. A lot of teams have won championships with 3 stars, so if you believe that MPJ is a star, than what do you need another 1 for? My question is why do we need another big name scorer? If your 4th star is going to be focused on defense, than we have arguably the best perimeter defender in the league with Harris.

Last year our problem was our bench, if you look at the bench stats after we traded Beasley and Juancho our bench was terrible. By the end of the year the only good player coming off the bench was Morris, the next best was Plumlee, than you have Grant (While Grant had a good playoffs and showed out better with the stars he was not exactly great most of the season off the bench), Craig was bad, and MPJ was very up and down all season.

While the methodology is suspect, take a look at how our bench guys rated last year. Look at how Juancho and Beasley did.
https://nbamath.com/crystalbasketball-ranking-all-nba-players-after-2019-20/

We were basically a 500 team after the trade.

Assuming we bring back Grant, we have potentially a top 2 or 3 starting lineup in the league with Murray/Harris/ MPJ/ Grant/ Jokic, that team can be top 10 in defense and top 5 in offense very easily. Now injuries could be an issue with Harris and MPJ especially, but we have no real depth behind them.

Our bench I see as having 2 PGs (Dozier is a combo guard but works at PG in our system), a SG/SF that has openly said he wants to start for years, we have 2 young combo forwards who got no chance to prove themselves last year, a very young PF that has injury issues, and no backup Centers. If Barton will accept being a 6th man, than all we really need to do is find a backup SG/SF that can play defense and hit shots, and a dependable backup C/PF. You can trade for Beal, and that still does not change the fact that the bench is the problem area that has to be fixed this offseason.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#791 » by The Rebel » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:58 pm

Personally I think you can use Morris and Barton to get what you really need from the bench. Young good starters like Morris usually bring back late lottery to early 20s picks or a quality starter by themselves. Proven quality starters usually bring back a potential starting young prospects and a protected pick.

For reference a young George Hill brought back the pick for Kawhi. We traded Fournier for Afflalo straight up. Afflalo brought back cap relief, Barton, and a 1st when we dumped him to Portland. Mozgov got us 2 1st round picks, hell we got 2 2nds for Lauvergne and nobody thought he was a future starter.

While I know Sky would prefer to trade Morris for a pick from someone, I think we can easily get 2 guys who are solid contributors but have low ceilings.

I think we can get a pick and a good bench player for Barton.

Both are basically in the price range of their types historically around the league. We can fix our bench which puts us firmly into the contender category if MPJ is even close to what we think he is.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#792 » by TunaFish » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:11 am

The Rebel wrote:
Last year our problem was our bench, if you look at the bench stats after we traded Beasley and Juancho our bench was terrible. By the end of the year the only good player coming off the bench was Morris, the next best was Plumlee, than you have Grant (While Grant had a good playoffs and showed out better with the stars he was not exactly great most of the season off the bench), Craig was bad, and MPJ was very up and down all season.

While the methodology is suspect, take a look at how our bench guys rated last year. Look at how Juancho and Beasley did.
https://nbamath.com/crystalbasketball-ranking-all-nba-players-after-2019-20/

We were basically a 500 team after the trade.



I think everyone here seems to agree that trading Beasley and Juancho weakened the Nuggets last season, I certainly did. It was a real head scratchier but on second review it appears their was some realization by the FO that they needed to move on. Malone made it clear that he wanted a nine man rotation in the playoffs and defense would be a priority (except with MPJ who he needed for scoring and had beaten Beasley out). Neither Beasley or Juancho seemed to overcome their problems with defense and that continues in Minnesota.

The club also had to face the reality of pending free agency for both. At least they salvaged Diop who might yet be a player. Not my plan of action but still defendable.

I also think we can all agree that having a quality bench is a plus. Finding bench players is a lot easier if you have stars that attract quality free agents or at least that is the Laker's model.

This is all about becoming a bona fide contender. The Nuggets are getting closer and if if one player can make that difference then you probably have to try. If rumors have any substance and the Nuggets are planning a trade, then it easy to see the reasoning about trading Harris and Barton.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#793 » by The Rebel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:28 am

TunaFish wrote:
Spoiler:
The Rebel wrote:
Last year our problem was our bench, if you look at the bench stats after we traded Beasley and Juancho our bench was terrible. By the end of the year the only good player coming off the bench was Morris, the next best was Plumlee, than you have Grant (While Grant had a good playoffs and showed out better with the stars he was not exactly great most of the season off the bench), Craig was bad, and MPJ was very up and down all season.

While the methodology is suspect, take a look at how our bench guys rated last year. Look at how Juancho and Beasley did.
https://nbamath.com/crystalbasketball-ranking-all-nba-players-after-2019-20/

We were basically a 500 team after the trade.



I think everyone here seems to agree that trading Beasley and Juancho weakened the Nuggets last season, I certainly did. It was a real head scratchier but on second review it appears their was some realization by the FO that they needed to move on. Malone made it clear that he wanted a nine man rotation in the playoffs and defense would be a priority (except with MPJ who he needed for scoring and had beaten Beasley out). Neither Beasley or Juancho seemed to overcome their problems with defense and that continues in Minnesota.

The club also had to face the reality of pending free agency for both. At least they salvaged Diop who might yet be a player. Not my plan of action but still defendable.


This isn't about the players, it is about their roles, we do not have the unconscious bench scorer, that does not care if we are up by 20 or down by 20, he thinks he can get us back into it and is a great fit for our offense. If MPJ starts as we all expect, than means that role is filled by Barton, who is not a natural fit in our offense and in fact kills the flow of the offense many times.

Who is our front court hustle guy that is constantly moving, setting hard screens, and pissing the other team off? That is what Juancho did, he wore guys out. and he could play against 2s,3s, or 4s. Maybe KBD or Cancar can grow into that type of guy, but they didn't show it last season.


TunaFish wrote:I also think we can all agree that having a quality bench is a plus. Finding bench players is a lot easier if you have stars that attract quality free agents or at least that is the Laker's model.

Name the last team without a good to great quality bench that won a championship?

Rondo and Howard were both bench players on the Lakers and without them our entire series is totally different. Yet they did not even play Howard in the 2nd round.

The Raptors bench had different guys come up huge their entire playoff run.

The Warriors had a great bench for all 3 of their championship runs.

Even the Cavs in 16 had a good bench.

The Spurs, the Heat, the Mavs all had good to great benches. Ours was 1 of the worst in the league after the trade, we just did not have the guys who could fill the roles that we needed.
TunaFish wrote:This is all about becoming a bona fide contender. The Nuggets are getting closer and if if one player can make that difference then you probably have to try. If rumors have any substance and the Nuggets are planning a trade, then it easy to see the reasoning about trading Harris and Barton.


That is the same mistake the 76ers have made the last 2 years, just add more star power and ignore the bench, you see where they are at now? The Celtics threw away their team to add that 1 more big name to be a contender, than traded that big name for another big name, and are now reportedly trying to trade for yet another big name. The 76ers bench costs them many games during the season and in the playoffs, go ask their fans, it was terrible. We saw the same damn thing after the trade deadline with the Nuggets but you guys did not seem to notice for some reason.

Go look through the game logs during the playoffs, we rarely fell behind in the 1st half of the 1st quarter. We won almost all the 4th quarters. Our problem was not our starters, our problem was our terrible bench. Our starters put up a +7.2 rating, that is borderline elite, and we have a year of development to add to that.

As for trading Harris and Barton, sure there is a reason for it, it is called stupidity. The only way you can trade Harris is if you bring in an elite perimeter defender, and if you trade Barton than you better have a plan for the bench. If the front office thinks that bringing in Jrue and not worrying about the bench is a smart plan than they deserve to be fired in 2 years when ownership realizes that the front office blew our 1 chance at a contender.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#794 » by The Rebel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:34 am

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Seems like a high price for Covington, I personally question his reputation. He is a very good defender but I don't think he is elite and he is an iffy shooter.

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I know this will upset some, but there have been rumors all day that they wanted him to go to the eastern conference. I am fine with him going to the Bucks. Hopefully we quit chasing big names and fix our bench. 3 future picks and 2 more swaps.

With the pick they already owed in 2022 the Bucks cannot trade another 1st. That is a good big 3, but I am not sure they are ever going to be able to build around them very well.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#795 » by Manolito » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:43 am

MIL sending three first round picks and two swaps, way too much for a 31 year old player with one more season under contract.

If Giannis leaves next summer, Milwaukee is completely screwed

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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#796 » by TunaFish » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:58 am

Manolito wrote:MIL sending three first round picks and two swaps, way too much for a 31 year old player with one more season under contract.

If Giannis leaves next summer, Milwaukee is completely screwed

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Denver could not have met that price for Holiday, not even close. Milwaukee risks losing Giannis and Holiday at season's end. Now that's what I call a gamble.

In the meantime, Harden has asked for a trade and Houston is in full melt down. What an off season.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#797 » by DaFan334 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:30 am

Thank god we didn't get in that bidding war (if there was one)! That seems like what could have gotten them Harden instead of Holiday. Hell, they could have paid less and gotten back Westbrook, which would have been better IMO.

After looking at what has happened to Robert Covington's 3 point shooting, I am glad we didn't go after him as well.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#798 » by The Rebel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:32 am

Newest rumor is that the Bucks and Hawks are after Bogdanovic, Bucks want to do a sign and trade and really have nothing of value for him. I would actually prefer we get in on him, even if it cost Barton.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#799 » by skywalker33 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:18 am

Well, look how many of these contending franchises have bankrupted their drafts over the next couple of years. They've also set up teams like OKC and NOP for the next decade. Implosions like HOU and LAC are going to come back to haunt them for years. At least we should be stable with flexibility because we haven't panicked like MIL just did.
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Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#800 » by NuggetsWY » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:57 am

The Rebel wrote:Newest rumor is that the Bucks and Hawks are after Bogdanovic, Bucks want to do a sign and trade and really have nothing of value for him. I would actually prefer we get in on him, even if it cost Barton.

I'd be willing to give a little more for Bodganovic. Perhaps even adding Morris -or- Dozier + Bates-Diop -or- #22 or a future pick.

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