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2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz

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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#21 » by skywalker33 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:03 am

THE J0KER wrote:With Harris and Barton out, the Beasley episode looks even more painful.


Comes across as just an excuse at this point. I see it as Malone and Murray could do nothing to resolve O'Neal's D on Jamal. Take him out and we have nothing going on in the back court with TC, hopefully Dozier will get some starting experience next game, not like Craig shut down anyone.
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#22 » by NuggetsWY » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:43 pm

The Nuggets are not lacking in talent - every team has made trades that they probably regret - but that is not the Nuggets' problem. They need to learn how to impose their will on a game - assert themselves and they absolutely must play defense.
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#23 » by The Rebel » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm

Anybody still want to say that Bogdanovic and Conley are more important than Harris and Barton? We literally have our playoff hopes riding on Craig (what happened to the guy who tried to argue Craig was better than Harris last summer?) or Dozier figuring out a way to slow down Mitchell and Clarkson. I am not liking our chances.
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#24 » by The Rebel » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:21 pm

NuggetsWY wrote:The Nuggets are not lacking in talent - every team has made trades that they probably regret - but that is not the Nuggets' problem. They need to learn how to impose their will on a game - assert themselves and they absolutely must play defense.


We are lacking at talent though. Who is our bench scorer? We literally traded 2 guys who are starters for the acquiring team for 3 guys one of whom we cut and the other 2 have yet to play a meaningful minute for our team, all in order to get a late 1st round pick. We all knew it at the time even those who did not want to admit it, we knew we got fleeced and it was a terrible deal.


Since the trade deadline and moving Beasley and Juancho this team is 11-11 counting the playoffs. Now 3 of those games were in the bubble with us tanking, but even still 11-8 is a 47 win pace, that is a pretty considerable drop off from the 57 win pace we were at before the trade. Right now we are missing the 2 best SGs and 2 best SFs we had on the team going into the season, there is literally no way to argue that we have plenty of talent. We are counting on a rookie, a very limited defensive specialist, and a G leaguer to replace those minutes, any other team in the league we would all be looking at and saying they have no chance.
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#25 » by NuggetsWY » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:21 pm

Totally agree with The Rebel's thoughts about our talent level being somewhat inadequate or at least reduced from the beginning of the season, but when you compare player-to-player with the Jazz, the Nuggets should come out on top IMO.

I've suggested before that the Nuggets need someone with attitude - someone that gets angry now and then (and I'm not talking about angry at the refs about a bad call). We are loaded with "nice guys". Jokic is our team leader and he is very nice. Yes he bangs, but even then it's not the "throw a man down now and then" type of banging. None of our bigs seem to "send a message" very often. Our small forwards are Barton & Porter & Bates-Diop & Craig - only Craig is considered a defensive player and even he doesn't seem to enjoy playing a physical game. Harris is a good defender but he's 6'4" and not a banger. Murray is the Nugget most likely to bang against someone (besides Jokic's mild banging), but Murray isn't big enough to intimidate much and he certainly doesn't have that obnoxious attitude of Rhondo or Beverly.

It has been too long that the word on the Nuggets is "they play soft - play them physical in order to win".
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#26 » by skywalker33 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:42 pm

NuggetsWY wrote:Totally agree with The Rebel's thoughts about our talent level being somewhat inadequate or at least reduced from the beginning of the season, but when you compare player-to-player with the Jazz, the Nuggets should come out on top IMO.

I've suggested before that the Nuggets need someone with attitude - someone that gets angry now and then (and I'm not talking about angry at the refs about a bad call). We are loaded with "nice guys". Jokic is our team leader and he is very nice. Yes he bangs, but even then it's not the "throw a man down now and then" type of banging. None of our bigs seem to "send a message" very often. Our small forwards are Barton & Porter & Bates-Diop & Craig - only Craig is considered a defensive player and even he doesn't seem to enjoy playing a physical game. Harris is a good defender but he's 6'4" and not a banger. Murray is the Nugget most likely to bang against someone (besides Jokic's mild banging), but Murray isn't big enough to intimidate much and he certainly doesn't have that obnoxious attitude of Rhondo or Beverly.

It has been too long that the word on the Nuggets is "they play soft - play them physical in order to win".


Might as well put that depth to work, right ??
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#27 » by The Rebel » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:57 pm

NuggetsWY wrote:Totally agree with The Rebel's thoughts about our talent level being somewhat inadequate or at least reduced from the beginning of the season, but when you compare player-to-player with the Jazz, the Nuggets should come out on top IMO.


Please actually go look at the rosters and compare them, we do not come out on top talent for talent right now. With Harris and Barton on the court and them having their guys on the court than we would, but it is not nearly as clear cut as you seem to think.
NuggetsWY wrote:I've suggested before that the Nuggets need someone with attitude - someone that gets angry now and then (and I'm not talking about angry at the refs about a bad call). We are loaded with "nice guys". Jokic is our team leader and he is very nice. Yes he bangs, but even then it's not the "throw a man down now and then" type of banging. None of our bigs seem to "send a message" very often. Our small forwards are Barton & Porter & Bates-Diop & Craig - only Craig is considered a defensive player and even he doesn't seem to enjoy playing a physical game. Harris is a good defender but he's 6'4" and not a banger. Murray is the Nugget most likely to bang against someone (besides Jokic's mild banging), but Murray isn't big enough to intimidate much and he certainly doesn't have that obnoxious attitude of Rhondo or Beverly.

It has been too long that the word on the Nuggets is "they play soft - play them physical in order to win".


Last year we overcame the physical play, but the issue is not our guys backing down, it is the fact that we have nobody to stop Mitchell. So we are forced to either let him get his, or change our whole defense and try to double, which is what we tried yesterday.

Our entire bench is depending on 1 spot up shooter, a pass 1st PG, and a guy on a 2 way deal to create offense and keep up with a veteran proven scorer surrounded by defenders. Our bench has been well below average since we traded Beasley and Juancho, if healthy and having either Barton or MPJ come off the bench than the whole dynamic changes and we have an average bench but as is our lack of depth and lack of scorers off the bench are going to keep killing the bench.
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#28 » by THE J0KER » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:57 pm

I do not agree we are worse than at the beginning of the regular season. MPJ improved in a bubble on the level I would call already better than Danilo Gallinari was in his great 2016-17 final season in Denver, and Jeramy Grant finally started to play as a true member of this team. But unfortunately, with annihilated SG spot with Harris, Beasley, and Barton out, we are the not better neither.

Let say it openly, our Front Office still acting like we are rebuilding team in the middle of the process, which is shocking considering we are #2 seed on stacked West last season. So they do not buy anything in most filled FA market ever in NBA history and lazy chose $30M team option in case of 35+ old veteran which realistic market price was around 10-15M. And then, when trade-deadline comes instead to use last-minute opportunity to make the team more competitive for the upcoming playoff, they intentionally make team worse for some long shot in the future. I really can't remember in recent memory such a move for TOP10 teams so typical for rebuilding teams.

BTW, there is finally some news about Gary Harris's injury status. Barton seems done with this season, but Harris may be back at some point already next week. https://www.denverpost.com/2020/08/20/gary-harris-update-nuggets-michael-malone/
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#29 » by skywalker33 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:36 pm

THE J0KER wrote:I do not agree we are worse than at the beginning of the regular season. MPJ improved in a bubble on the level I would call already better than Danilo Gallinari was in his great 2016-17 final season in Denver, and Jeramy Grant finally started to play as a true member of this team. But unfortunately, with annihilated SG spot with Harris, Beasley, and Barton out, we are the not better neither.

Let say it openly, our Front Office still acting like we are rebuilding team in the middle of the process, which is shocking considering we are #2 seed on stacked West last season. So they do not buy anything in most filled FA market ever in NBA history and lazy chose $30M team option in case of 35+ old veteran which realistic market price was around 10-15M. And then, when trade-deadline comes instead to use last-minute opportunity to make the team more competitive for the upcoming playoff, they intentionally make team worse for some long shot in the future. I really can't remember in recent memory such a move for TOP10 teams so typical for rebuilding teams.

BTW, there is finally some news about Gary Harris's injury status. Barton seems done with this season, but Harris may be back at some point already next week. https://www.denverpost.com/2020/08/20/gary-harris-update-nuggets-michael-malone/


Wow, so much revisionist perspective but to each his own !! Without two starters hard NOT to believe we are worse off even with MPJ replacing Barton in the starting lineup.

It's SOOOO easy to have that 20/20 hindsight you use as a weapon to try and prove your argument, but it is easier that way. While I do think the FO does have some issues, to say they believe we're still in rebuild mode is unrealistic at best. I do see them being more hesitant to make big moves but in most smaller markets it's not as easy to recover from big moves should they fail. At the time opting to re-up Millsap seemed a move to gain continuity, keep our starting lineup and defense strong. Most, including myself, thought we should opt-out, resign him for a smaller, longer contract which would mean we'd have Millsap for a year or two more after this year. As of right now, with his poor playoff play, does that really look like such a bad decision now ???

As for the trade market, Beasley is a FA now, we made a good offer, he wanted more so we made the best trade available, same with Juancho. Getting something is ALWAYS better than not getting anything, Beasley forced their hand. Who could have known that BOTH Barton and Harris were going to get injured going into the Bubble, yet you seem to imply the Nuggets shouldn't have traded Beasley for that exact reason, can you give me the next winning lottery numbers when you look into that crystal ball instead of just using it as a revisionist weapon to try to give you a platform yo use, GEEEZ !!!
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#30 » by NuggetsWY » Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:19 am

The Rebel wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:Totally agree with The Rebel's thoughts about our talent level being somewhat inadequate or at least reduced from the beginning of the season, but when you compare player-to-player with the Jazz, the Nuggets should come out on top IMO.


Please actually go look at the rosters and compare them, we do not come out on top talent for talent right now. With Harris and Barton on the court and them having their guys on the court than we would, but it is not nearly as clear cut as you seem to think.

I was assuming no injuries.
NuggetsWY wrote:I've suggested before that the Nuggets need someone with attitude - someone that gets angry now and then (and I'm not talking about angry at the refs about a bad call). We are loaded with "nice guys". Jokic is our team leader and he is very nice. Yes he bangs, but even then it's not the "throw a man down now and then" type of banging. None of our bigs seem to "send a message" very often. Our small forwards are Barton & Porter & Bates-Diop & Craig - only Craig is considered a defensive player and even he doesn't seem to enjoy playing a physical game. Harris is a good defender but he's 6'4" and not a banger. Murray is the Nugget most likely to bang against someone (besides Jokic's mild banging), but Murray isn't big enough to intimidate much and he certainly doesn't have that obnoxious attitude of Rhondo or Beverly.

It has been too long that the word on the Nuggets is "they play soft - play them physical in order to win".

The Rebel wrote:Last year we overcame the physical play, but the issue is not our guys backing down, it is the fact that we have nobody to stop Mitchell. So we are forced to either let him get his, or change our whole defense and try to double, which is what we tried yesterday.

Our entire bench is depending on 1 spot up shooter, a pass 1st PG, and a guy on a 2 way deal to create offense and keep up with a veteran proven scorer surrounded by defenders. Our bench has been well below average since we traded Beasley and Juancho, if healthy and having either Barton or MPJ come off the bench than the whole dynamic changes and we have an average bench but as is our lack of depth and lack of scorers off the bench are going to keep killing the bench.

Every team in the playoffs has at least one player that has to be focused upon. If Mitchell beats us, we don't deserve to face the next level at all. There will be at least two players capable of that kind of game.

If healthy, our bench would be:
Defensive passing center
spot up active PF
Offensive SF + defensive SF
an SF or PG at SG
a consistent all around backup PG + a younger PG

Mix them with at least one key starter and another starter - the bench wouldn't be totally destroyed --- at least that's my opinion
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#31 » by The Rebel » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:31 am

NuggetsWY wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:Totally agree with The Rebel's thoughts about our talent level being somewhat inadequate or at least reduced from the beginning of the season, but when you compare player-to-player with the Jazz, the Nuggets should come out on top IMO.


Please actually go look at the rosters and compare them, we do not come out on top talent for talent right now. With Harris and Barton on the court and them having their guys on the court than we would, but it is not nearly as clear cut as you seem to think.

I was assuming no injuries.


Unfortunately the injuries matter, they are the biggest reason we are getting blown out.
NuggetsWY wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:I've suggested before that the Nuggets need someone with attitude - someone that gets angry now and then (and I'm not talking about angry at the refs about a bad call). We are loaded with "nice guys". Jokic is our team leader and he is very nice. Yes he bangs, but even then it's not the "throw a man down now and then" type of banging. None of our bigs seem to "send a message" very often. Our small forwards are Barton & Porter & Bates-Diop & Craig - only Craig is considered a defensive player and even he doesn't seem to enjoy playing a physical game. Harris is a good defender but he's 6'4" and not a banger. Murray is the Nugget most likely to bang against someone (besides Jokic's mild banging), but Murray isn't big enough to intimidate much and he certainly doesn't have that obnoxious attitude of Rhondo or Beverly.

It has been too long that the word on the Nuggets is "they play soft - play them physical in order to win".

The Rebel wrote:Last year we overcame the physical play, but the issue is not our guys backing down, it is the fact that we have nobody to stop Mitchell. So we are forced to either let him get his, or change our whole defense and try to double, which is what we tried yesterday.

Our entire bench is depending on 1 spot up shooter, a pass 1st PG, and a guy on a 2 way deal to create offense and keep up with a veteran proven scorer surrounded by defenders. Our bench has been well below average since we traded Beasley and Juancho, if healthy and having either Barton or MPJ come off the bench than the whole dynamic changes and we have an average bench but as is our lack of depth and lack of scorers off the bench are going to keep killing the bench.

Every team in the playoffs has at least one player that has to be focused upon. If Mitchell beats us, we don't deserve to face the next level at all. There will be at least two players capable of that kind of game.


Not all the players are the same, the 2 guys who are best at guarding perimeter guys the run a lot of pick and roll you know like Mitchell are literally out of the game right now.

Not to mention how many teams can even be disappointed with losing in the 1st round missing 2 starters? I know everybody underrates defense, but this series is showing just how important Harris is to this team, and it showed last year in the playoffs when he was the only one that could cover Lilliard and White.

Now that does not mean we would have the same issues with the Clippers or Lakers, between Grant, Craig, and Millsap we have guys that can guard Kawhi, George, and Lebron as well as anybody.
NuggetsWY wrote:If healthy, our bench would be:
Defensive passing center
spot up active PF
Offensive SF + defensive SF
an SF or PG at SG
a consistent all around backup PG + a younger PG

Mix them with at least one key starter and another starter - the bench wouldn't be totally destroyed --- at least that's my opinion



You can title them any way you want, but the fact is our backup Center has shown 2 years in a row to be almost worthless, in the playoffs. A pass 1st PG that can really only pass to 1 or 2 guys to shoot on the perimeter, limited shooting, no slashing, nobody good at creating their own shots. You can keep starters on all you want, but who is the spark plug off the bench that can come out and hit a couple of shots? Just about every team out there has 1, but we don't right now. Who is our guy to counter Clarkson? IF you say Barton, well isn't he a pretty big loss then? If you say MPJ than Barton is still a huge loss.


Like it or not we are overmatched with our injuries. Our bench was decimated due to a bad trade and injuries. That has taken what should have been at least an average bench into one of the worst in the league. Back when we had real depth like during the Lawson/ Gallo years you could handle losing a guy or two to injury, now we just do not have that depth at the 2 or 3. Unless we get one of Harris or Barton back than I am not sure we win another game.
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#32 » by NuggetsWY » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:42 pm

The Rebel wrote:
Spoiler:
NuggetsWY wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Please actually go look at the rosters and compare them, we do not come out on top talent for talent right now. With Harris and Barton on the court and them having their guys on the court than we would, but it is not nearly as clear cut as you seem to think.

I was assuming no injuries.


Unfortunately the injuries matter, they are the biggest reason we are getting blown out.
NuggetsWY wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:I've suggested before that the Nuggets need someone with attitude - someone that gets angry now and then (and I'm not talking about angry at the refs about a bad call). We are loaded with "nice guys". Jokic is our team leader and he is very nice. Yes he bangs, but even then it's not the "throw a man down now and then" type of banging. None of our bigs seem to "send a message" very often. Our small forwards are Barton & Porter & Bates-Diop & Craig - only Craig is considered a defensive player and even he doesn't seem to enjoy playing a physical game. Harris is a good defender but he's 6'4" and not a banger. Murray is the Nugget most likely to bang against someone (besides Jokic's mild banging), but Murray isn't big enough to intimidate much and he certainly doesn't have that obnoxious attitude of Rhondo or Beverly.

It has been too long that the word on the Nuggets is "they play soft - play them physical in order to win".

The Rebel wrote:Last year we overcame the physical play, but the issue is not our guys backing down, it is the fact that we have nobody to stop Mitchell. So we are forced to either let him get his, or change our whole defense and try to double, which is what we tried yesterday.

Our entire bench is depending on 1 spot up shooter, a pass 1st PG, and a guy on a 2 way deal to create offense and keep up with a veteran proven scorer surrounded by defenders. Our bench has been well below average since we traded Beasley and Juancho, if healthy and having either Barton or MPJ come off the bench than the whole dynamic changes and we have an average bench but as is our lack of depth and lack of scorers off the bench are going to keep killing the bench.

Every team in the playoffs has at least one player that has to be focused upon. If Mitchell beats us, we don't deserve to face the next level at all. There will be at least two players capable of that kind of game.


Not all the players are the same, the 2 guys who are best at guarding perimeter guys the run a lot of pick and roll you know like Mitchell are literally out of the game right now.

Not to mention how many teams can even be disappointed with losing in the 1st round missing 2 starters? I know everybody underrates defense, but this series is showing just how important Harris is to this team, and it showed last year in the playoffs when he was the only one that could cover Lilliard and White.

Now that does not mean we would have the same issues with the Clippers or Lakers, between Grant, Craig, and Millsap we have guys that can guard Kawhi, George, and Lebron as well as anybody.
NuggetsWY wrote:If healthy, our bench would be:
Defensive passing center
spot up active PF
Offensive SF + defensive SF
an SF or PG at SG
a consistent all around backup PG + a younger PG

Mix them with at least one key starter and another starter - the bench wouldn't be totally destroyed --- at least that's my opinion


You can title them any way you want, but the fact is our backup Center has shown 2 years in a row to be almost worthless, in the playoffs. A pass 1st PG that can really only pass to 1 or 2 guys to shoot on the perimeter, limited shooting, no slashing, nobody good at creating their own shots. You can keep starters on all you want, but who is the spark plug off the bench that can come out and hit a couple of shots? Just about every team out there has 1, but we don't right now. Who is our guy to counter Clarkson? IF you say Barton, well isn't he a pretty big loss then? If you say MPJ than Barton is still a huge loss.


Like it or not we are overmatched with our injuries. Our bench was decimated due to a bad trade and injuries. That has taken what should have been at least an average bench into one of the worst in the league. Back when we had real depth like during the Lawson/ Gallo years you could handle losing a guy or two to injury, now we just do not have that depth at the 2 or 3. Unless we get one of Harris or Barton back than I am not sure we win another game.

Your points are well made and I do tend to agree. Mentioning a "spark plug off the bench" reminds me of how much I liked Barton in that role. Truthfully, I like Grant off the bench but would prefer to see him in the corners and running the baseline. That's where he seems most effective and that gives Morris someone to pass to. If we had Barton playing with those two ...

I don't worry about Plumlee's effectiveness too much because like most coaches, Malone shortens his rotation during the playoffs. With the every other day in this year's playoffs, the bench becomes more important and so missing two starters hurts our bench play even more.

I'm not ready to rely on Porter because experience is vital in the playoffs, so yes, Barton's loss is quite important. Like Craig, Porter is going to have good games and bad, at least for now. I'd love to see Porter starting, but kept on a short leash --- but we need Barton off the bench then and/or see Grant playing SF more.

But as I have said more than once, our problem in the Utah series is simply defense - and Harris is vital to that issue.

Our depth issue? Who do we want playing major minutes? Who can we trust to be fairly consistent?

Jokic - Millsap - Grant are the three bigs I'd trust the most
Murray - Morris are the only wings/smalls that I'd trust much

Yes, we surely do miss Barton & Harris. I've had issues with both, but I openly acknowledge that they are known quality players. They would give us seven players that I would trust with major minutes.
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#33 » by skywalker33 » Tue Sep 1, 2020 3:23 am

Any word on Barton yet? Know he left the bubble to get 2nd opinion/rehab...will he try to regain admission, is his knee that bad ??
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#34 » by THE J0KER » Tue Sep 1, 2020 5:02 am

skywalker33 wrote:Any word on Barton yet? Know he left the bubble to get 2nd opinion/rehab...will he try to regain admission, is his knee that bad ??

With Harris back, I'm not sure would Barton's comeback will be any kind of improvement at all right now.

Barton played arguably career-best season so far, big credit to him personally, but to be honest, everything which he can add to our perimeter defense at this moment is not worthy potential damage which he would make on our offense, especially to current Jamal Murray GOAT level, but also, to already reduced Porter role and playing time, which is scandalous before bubble restart.

As I pointed so many times before, Barton's biggest problem in this team is not his player's qualities but an extremely bad fit for this Nuggets system. We already wrongly sacrifice better suited Malik Beasley to the Malone attempt to make his favorite player as one of the centerpieces of this team, and that is more than enough for me, the improvement of Murray/MPJ should be top priority for this team in near future.
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Re: 2020 Playoff - Western Conference 1st Round: [3]Denver Nuggets vs [6]Utah Jazz 

Post#35 » by The Rebel » Tue Sep 1, 2020 5:47 am

skywalker33 wrote:Any word on Barton yet? Know he left the bubble to get 2nd opinion/rehab...will he try to regain admission, is his knee that bad ??


They said that he was rehabbing off campus on the altitude broadcast. It sounds like he did not need surgery, just more time to recover. So it should not be too bad of an injury.

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