RealGM

Murray’s Career Points Per Shot By Zone With and Without Nikola Jokic On the Court

First saw this debate happening on Halftime: https://halftime.app.link/ball -- thought I'd share it here as well: I took a look into Murray’s numbers and this shot chart indicates that he is very reliant on Jokic. In order for Murray to become a legitimate superstar, I believe he has to get better at being THE guy as opposed to playing as much off Jokic. The two can get better at taking turns running the offense. We saw them do more of this in the playoffs, and it nearly got them to the NBA Finals.
Murray’s efficiency drops pretty noticeably around the rim, but also a bit from 3-point range when Jokic is on the bench.

Just thought this was interesting!

Do you think there’s any validity to these shot charts? What do you think Murray needs to do to take that next step into superstardom?

There might be some validity to show how effective Jokic really is as a big man on the court, especially with the ability to find the open man as a center. It is interesting to see that Murray's efficiency drops when Jokic is on the bench, but that could be due to paint-dominant bigs coming in like Mason Plumlee from last season; with Plumlee gone, this number could potentially increase, along with a new-found confidence Murray might have after his excellent bubble run.

At the end of the day, I don't think these numbers should be too alarming for Nuggets fans, as most of the meaningful minutes these two will be on the court together regardless. I do, however, hope Murray continues to develop into a potentially elite shot creator and becomes "that guy" for them, although MPJ could very well become that as well. If Murray does become too reliant on the Joker, Porter Jr. could take that role and emerge as the primary scorer if need be. Only time will tell!

You realize that today is a historic day. Jokmas.

TunaFish wrote:You realize that today is a historic day. Jokmas.

That is amazing. haha.

But what about Murray. Do you think there's anything he can do to take that next step? Or will this always be Joker's team?

+MJD+ wrote:There might be some validity to show how effective Jokic really is as a big man on the court, especially with the ability to find the open man as a center. It is interesting to see that Murray's efficiency drops when Jokic is on the bench, but that could be due to paint-dominant bigs coming in like Mason Plumlee from last season; with Plumlee gone, this number could potentially increase, along with a new-found confidence Murray might have after his excellent bubble run.

At the end of the day, I don't think these numbers should be too alarming for Nuggets fans, as most of the meaningful minutes these two will be on the court together regardless. I do, however, hope Murray continues to develop into a potentially elite shot creator and becomes "that guy" for them, although MPJ could very well become that as well. If Murray does become too reliant on the Joker, Porter Jr. could take that role and emerge as the primary scorer if need be. Only time will tell!

100% don't think there's anything to be alarmed about. It was interesting -- people were also asking me about what similar charts looked like for the likes of Steph and Klay. Starts like playing with other stars. Opens everything up for everyone.

pmanzano wrote:

TunaFish wrote:You realize that today is a historic day. Jokmas.

That is amazing. haha.

But what about Murray. Do you think there's anything he can do to take that next step? Or will this always be Joker's team?

Murray is elite already. All players get better with Jokic and yes, this is Jokic's team. So it is written, so it shall be.

Happy Jokmas! (Dec 15, 2016 will be remembered)

Interesting that you singled out Murray, Joker has that kind of impact on EVERY player he plays with.

Ask Malone!

But not Denver's coach Mike Malone but Karl Malone who played his whole career with a player who perfectly fits him, John Stockton, or at least Moses Malone which professional peak was years when he played in perfect chemistry with Julius Erving

skywalker33 wrote:Interesting that you singled out Murray, Joker has that kind of impact on EVERY player he plays with.

Fair. Should have given some context. This conversation started on FB and Halftime -- and it was around the Bubble Battle between Mitchell and Murray. Others were throwing around the idea that Mitchell was more of a superstar than Murray because of him being "the guy". So I wanted to look into it.

But you're right -- I'm sure if I did a similar chart Donovan probably gets better looks with Gobert on the floor. The same might even be true with Jok and others on the team.

But this was about whether or not Murray could do it without Jokic's influence.

THE J0KER wrote:Ask Malone!

But not Denver's coach Mike Malone but Karl Malone who played his whole career with a player who perfectly fits him, John Stockton, or at least Moses Malone which professional peak was years when he played in perfect chemistry with Julius Erving

Haha -- it makes total sense. Stars like playing with other stars. I guess the question is really around "superstar" and what goes into that definition.

Like.. Could Murray ever enter the superstar discussion if Jokic is on the floor with him?

pmanzano wrote:Could Murray ever enter the superstar discussion if Jokic is on the floor with him?

Obviously you didn't watch the Bubble playoffs...

skywalker33 wrote:

pmanzano wrote:Could Murray ever enter the superstar discussion if Jokic is on the floor with him?

Obviously you didn't watch the Bubble playoffs...

Is a couple games in a bubble enough to be called a superstar, though? That's basically what the thread is about.

I feel like consistency plays a huge role. Seeing that type of performance night in/night out. Don't you feel like that might be part of the formula?

pmanzano wrote:

skywalker33 wrote:

pmanzano wrote:Could Murray ever enter the superstar discussion if Jokic is on the floor with him?

Obviously you didn't watch the Bubble playoffs...

Is a couple games in a bubble enough to be called a superstar, though? That's basically what the thread is about.

I feel like consistency plays a huge role. Seeing that type of performance night in/night out. Don't you feel like that might be part of the formula?

Just going by what YOU wrote

pmanzano wrote:

skywalker33 wrote:

pmanzano wrote:Could Murray ever enter the superstar discussion if Jokic is on the floor with him?

Obviously you didn't watch the Bubble playoffs...

Is a couple games in a bubble enough to be called a superstar, though? That's basically what the thread is about.

I feel like consistency plays a huge role. Seeing that type of performance night in/night out. Don't you feel like that might be part of the formula?

Murray is 23 and has improved every year both offensively and defensively. When you watch him you see the talent but he does get banged up a bit and will miss some games. Typically, he will start the season slowly, concentration is an issue with him. By playoffs (two seasons), he can be a beast, one of the best players you have ever seen. He has literally taken over playoff games and other teams game plan to stop him, always using their best defender to guard him.

No doubt the two man game he plays with Jokic is a huge factor in his ability to score at such high rates.

You posted two charts that prove that Jokic has an effect on Murray. Without knowing, I would guess that you would find the same pattern with all of Denver's starters when playing with Jokic.

skywalker33 wrote:

pmanzano wrote:

skywalker33 wrote:
Obviously you didn't watch the Bubble playoffs...

Is a couple games in a bubble enough to be called a superstar, though? That's basically what the thread is about.

I feel like consistency plays a huge role. Seeing that type of performance night in/night out. Don't you feel like that might be part of the formula?

Just going by what YOU wrote

All good. Not trying to challenge you. Just trying to move the conversation forward.

I guess my point is that, for me, even the bubble wasn't enough to enter the superstar conversation. Because my bar for superstardom is probably really high -- though it's pretty subjective.

pmanzano wrote:
I guess my point is that, for me, even the bubble wasn't enough to enter the superstar conversation.

ThenI guess you're in the wrong forum, looks like you looking for a fight....or at the least create dissension. Like me calling FVV or Pascal overrated player, which isn't that far-fetched either.

The OP was interesting, but drawing conclusions that have been suggested doesn't make sense.

Do a comparison of Steph Curry & Klay Thompson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Lew Alcindor & Oscar Robertson and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Magic Johnson & Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Larry Bird & Kevin McHale and see what happens.
Do a comparison of Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen and see what happens.

There are so many great players that have played together. They are not great because of the other player, they are great because of their work ethic (and talent). There is no doubt in my mind that any great player is better when playing with another great player. There are plenty of examples of great players that could not win without another great player.

Look at Charles Barkley's career; and Wilt Chamberlain's career; and Kevin Garnett's career; and even LeBron's career.

skywalker33 wrote:

pmanzano wrote:
I guess my point is that, for me, even the bubble wasn't enough to enter the superstar conversation.

ThenI guess you're in the wrong forum, looks like you looking for a fight....or at the least create dissension. Like me calling FVV or Pascal overrated player, which isn't that far-fetched either.

Not looking for a fight either. I think it’s fair for fans to be critical of their own players — and still be fans. For instance, I totally agree with you about Freddy and Pascal. They’re both extremely overrated and might even be overpaid for what they give the Raps. Freddy is undersized and Pascal is hella inconsistent. But I still love them on my team. Haha.

Was just hoping for some thoughtful discussion and points to hopefully change my mind about the topic.

Appreciate the back and forth though!