Denver @ Phoenix

[noone]

my point is that our backcourt is one of our many flaws, and my dumars point is that 6'3, 6'4, 6'5, he didn't play like a midget, and as far as proof....see who MJ considers one of the toughest guys to guard him. I'd love to see Carter or AI guard somebody who's 6'6 and athletic, not even MJ.

Carter has also been playing defense like he were 6'4, 6'5. Your problem is that you keep looking at individual players. Even Thomas and Dumars weren't Bowen type defenders. That beast of a frontcourt they had allowed them to do a lot that they did. Same goes for Denver. Carter has done an outstanding job. And Melo can guard the 1-3. And because they're so flexible, the defense has worked out pretty well. Top 5 defense in the league.

The Nash and AI comparison isn't apples and oranges

Even though I didn't even mention Nash and Iverson in my previous post, it is apples and oranges. The Suns' system is more suited for Nash and for racking up assists than Denver's anyways. In Denver, without the spacing he gets and without all the shooters he has in Phoenix, he wouldn't look as good. But that's one argument I'm going to avoid.

If you want to win a title, and you haven't thus far in your career...wouldn't you think you might try something different

Would you ask Nash, Stockton, Kidd the same thing? That's such a ridiculous argument. You're putting way too much emphasis on one thing for a championship team.

And as far as you pointing the finger at anybody other then AI for lack of ball movement is the most comical comment I've heard in 08.

Do Camby/Martin not hold the ball for a few seconds after receiving the ball especially after kickouts before making their moves?
Do Najera/Kleiza/Atkins not shoot the ball more often than swing it when they get the ball wide open in the corner at the 3 point line?
Does anybody on this team ever look to make the extra pass even when they have an open shot?

If you answered yes to any of those quesitons, does than not qualify as hindering ball movement?

And please don't bother responding if you don't have anything of substance to say back.

[sportsmikegm23]

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my point is that our backcourt is one of our many flaws, and my dumars point is that 6'3, 6'4, 6'5, he didn't play like a midget, and as far as proof....see who MJ considers one of the toughest guys to guard him. I'd love to see Carter or AI guard somebody who's 6'6 and athletic, not even MJ.

The Nash and AI comparison isn't apples and oranges, one knows how to get his team involved, and the other doesn't. If you want to win a title, and you haven't thus far in your career...wouldn't you think you might try something different...such as being more of a playmaker as opposed to a scorer? I'm not saying quit shooting, I'm saying defer for the sake of teammates getting involved and getting into a rhythm.
Jordan early in his career had a couple years where he scored like 36 or 37 ppg, and guess what? They weren't winning titles untill Jordan learned how to get his teammates involved. And Jordan was shooting a higher pct. then AI has at point in his career. I believe AI could be a 20 ppg and 10 assist guy a night, and we would be a better team, just mainly because his teammates touches would go up. I really believe we need to put him at point, and pair him with somebody that can atleast slow down the other teams 2 guard. Sorry to compare AI and Jordan, cause the two shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence, but the scoring and not winning is what I was getting at.

And as far as you pointing the finger at anybody other then AI for lack of ball movement is the most comical comment I've heard in 08.

Can you please tell me what NBA title team Steve Nash has been on? ok none? ok...can you tell me which NBA Finals team Steve Nash has been on?? ok none.... AI has gone further than Steve Nash has.

JR... I understand your point, while this team does lack a "traditional" style...it doesn't mean they can't compete for a title. yes, I agree the parts of the team don't fit, but honestly, you sound like you hate everything about the Nuggets, and if you have so much hate, why even watch or worry about it... We didn't have much success with Andre Miller as our point guard either and he was definitely a pass 1st pg. the Nuggets haven't had a shooting guard since...hell I don't even know anymore... Bryant Stith and he was all defense???.

Unless you have a big "in" with Kroenke...I think all your hate is going to fall on deaf ears.

[JRmakes_it_rain]

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Can you please tell me what NBA title team Steve Nash has been on? ok none? ok...can you tell me which NBA Finals team Steve Nash has been on?? ok none.... AI has gone further than Steve Nash has.

JR... I understand your point, while this team does lack a "traditional" style...it doesn't mean they can't compete for a title. yes, I agree the parts of the team don't fit, but honestly, you sound like you hate everything about the Nuggets, and if you have so much hate, why even watch or worry about it... We didn't have much success with Andre Miller as our point guard either and he was definitely a pass 1st pg. the Nuggets haven't had a shooting guard since...hell I don't even know anymore... Bryant Stith and he was all defense???.

Unless you have a big "in" with Kroenke...I think all your hate is going to fall on deaf ears.

ive suffered though the years of freeing up cap room, watching us unload every piece of talent for more cap room, and then watching us botch almost every draft pick we've had. And then attribute it to cap room. Then I had to watch AI come to town, and the team actually take a step back in my opinion. So excuse me if I sound a little bitter towards the nuggets. I've watched this product over the years, and I'm tired of this team not having any kind of blueprint that mirrors any team thats had success. It's depressing to know that we're headed for just another first round loss with the team and the current philosophy the team has for winning, I truly believe the pieces are here right now for a run, but thats another story. And believe me, a couple assistant coach's on the team ask the same questions I do, and anybody that has coached, or knows basketball would question some of the basketball moves this team makes.....so thanks for your concern about my hate or love for the nuggets, but don't worry I'll sleep just fine tonight.

[JRmakes_it_rain]

my point is that our backcourt is one of our many flaws, and my dumars point is that 6'3, 6'4, 6'5, he didn't play like a midget, and as far as proof....see who MJ considers one of the toughest guys to guard him. I'd love to see Carter or AI guard somebody who's 6'6 and athletic, not even MJ.

Carter has also been playing defense like he were 6'4, 6'5. Your problem is that you keep looking at individual players. Even Thomas and Dumars weren't Bowen type defenders. That beast of a frontcourt they had allowed them to do a lot that they did. Same goes for Denver. Carter has done an outstanding job. And Melo can guard the 1-3. And because they're so flexible, the defense has worked out pretty well. Top 5 defense in the league.

The Nash and AI comparison isn't apples and oranges

Even though I didn't even mention Nash and Iverson in my previous post, it is apples and oranges. The Suns' system is more suited for Nash and for racking up assists than Denver's anyways. In Denver, without the spacing he gets and without all the shooters he has in Phoenix, he wouldn't look as good. But that's one argument I'm going to avoid.

If you want to win a title, and you haven't thus far in your career...wouldn't you think you might try something different

Would you ask Nash, Stockton, Kidd the same thing? That's such a ridiculous argument. You're putting way too much emphasis on one thing for a championship team.

And as far as you pointing the finger at anybody other then AI for lack of ball movement is the most comical comment I've heard in 08.

Do Camby/Martin not hold the ball for a few seconds after receiving the ball especially after kickouts before making their moves?
Do Najera/Kleiza/Atkins not shoot the ball more often than swing it when they get the ball wide open in the corner at the 3 point line?
Does anybody on this team ever look to make the extra pass even when they have an open shot?

If you answered yes to any of those quesitons, does than not qualify as hindering ball movement?

And please don't bother responding if you don't have anything of substance to say back.

substance left last week in this debate.....I'm through trying to debate that a 6 foot guard that loves to dribble but isn't a point guard, and can't guard anybody but a point guard, Is or ever will be the piece to put the Denver Nuggets over the top, or into the elite. We are in the exact same spot we were before the trade...end of discussion.

[noone]

substance left last week in this debate.....I'm through trying to debate that a 6 foot guard that loves to dribble but isn't a point guard, and can't guard anybody but a point guard, Is or ever will be the piece to put the Denver Nuggets over the top, or into the elite. We are in the exact same spot we were before the trade...end of discussion.

Substance apparently left sometime after your last post in this thread. I posed pretty simple questions. Questions you could give yes/no answers to. And because you refused to answer I'll just take it that you agree that Iverson isn't the only player on the team that is at fault for the lack of ball movement.

[pickaxe]

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its almost all circumstance.
-karl preferring to shut down the paint over defend the 3 point line...which is typically a good idea. that doesn't mean you leave guys open all game, but you don't want to give up layups to barbosa and nash, or even stoudemire....and they basically didn't.
-4th game in 5 nights means tired legs and tired minds, which means slow defensive rotations, and late contests (kmart is as energetic as they come, and contests shots as well as anyone on this team...and he was lazy tonight)
-and phoenix simply being hot. brian skinner hit a 3 for godsakes. marcus banks doesn't go 7/8 from 3 warming up in pregame. he hit a 30 footer with a hand in his face...what more do you want? double him when he has the ball like he's lebron? so then barbosa or hill get open corner 3's...and the results the same since nobody could miss.

give denver a days rest, have brian skinner miss that 3 to end the half, and bring marcus banks back to earth....and the game is decided in the last 2 minutes, which is what you want against the team with the 4th best record in the league...on the road.

For the 3-point line - it's the degree to which shooters are being left open. Shooters on any team this defense has played - yes, they try to shut down the paint, but then there's a kick-out to the wide open man, and the defender turns his head, stares for 2 seconds, turns his head back to the rim awaiting the rebound, and it's too late - either it's a long rebound and it goes back over his head so the shooter can drive or it sees nothing but net.

What's so hard about trying to alter a shot on the perimeter? You go out, try to impede the shooter's view without fouling, and get a body on him so he feels the pressure and the shot goes astray by one inch and you get the ball back with good rebounding.

I've seen the Nuggets do this and succeed - they just don't do it all the time. It's just pursuit of the ball. Go after the damn thing and take it back down the floor - don't just stop and watch it.

If they like to shoot and they're making it (there's your sign), make them drive. We've got Camby, Kmart, Nene ready to block the shot since they are locked down in the paint anyway. Make the offense do something they're not comfortable doing.

[Don_eMOCION#31]

i have the impression that ai passed the ball more last year...
he

[Don_eMOCION#31]

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my point is that our backcourt is one of our many flaws, and my dumars point is that 6'3, 6'4, 6'5, he didn't play like a midget, and as far as proof....see who MJ considers one of the toughest guys to guard him. I'd love to see Carter or AI guard somebody who's 6'6 and athletic, not even MJ.

The Nash and AI comparison isn't apples and oranges, one knows how to get his team involved, and the other doesn't. If you want to win a title, and you haven't thus far in your career...wouldn't you think you might try something different...such as being more of a playmaker as opposed to a scorer? I'm not saying quit shooting, I'm saying defer for the sake of teammates getting involved and getting into a rhythm.
Jordan early in his career had a couple years where he scored like 36 or 37 ppg, and guess what? They weren't winning titles untill Jordan learned how to get his teammates involved. And Jordan was shooting a higher pct. then AI has at point in his career. I believe AI could be a 20 ppg and 10 assist guy a night, and we would be a better team, just mainly because his teammates touches would go up. I really believe we need to put him at point, and pair him with somebody that can atleast slow down the other teams 2 guard. Sorry to compare AI and Jordan, cause the two shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence, but the scoring and not winning is what I was getting at.

And as far as you pointing the finger at anybody other then AI for lack of ball movement is the most comical comment I've heard in 08.

First of all: Nash and A.I. not apples and oranges? one plays pure PG the other one plays as an SG. a shooting guard is the guy who can create his shot. who has to shot when nobody else can make a shot. that was the case yesterday and you complain about him? iverson made 50 % of his shots i dont know your problem. thats GREAT for a SG!

Second: Your Jordan and A.I. comparrison is absolutely BULL too. Did you see an jordan game? Jordan took every shot that he wanted and passed only if a guy was wide open. Many forget his amazing supporting cast.
-One of the greatest rebounders/defenders/hustlers of all time (who isn't an hall of famer just because stern always had trouble with him on/off the court) Dennis Rodman!
-One of the most versatile players who ever touched the ball with GREAT defense too. Scottie Pippen.
-One/If not the best 3pt shooter of all time. Even in crunchtime! Steve Kerr.
-An amazing all-round european named Toni Kukoc (in his Prime)!
-The best SG who ever played the game. MJ himself!

those are players jordan didn't had in his first NBA years. that's why he didn't won a championchip. This team he had when he won championchips was AMAZING!

[Don_eMOCION#31]

It's crazy to see so many guys kinda freakin out because we lost one **** game. you cant win them all. we are a 21-13 team. one of the best in NBA. we had a hard shedule. 4 Games. 5 Nights. that's a nightmare! we beat san antonio on fresh legs. that's a good sign. we lost to the suns after having so many games in just 5 days! oh my god. move on! it means NOTHING! Do you expect them to hit 20 Threes everytime we face them or what are the reasons everyone drives crazy after such a fuc**n game.

we face the magic and DWIGHT howard in a couple days. a couple days with a bit rest for our team. that's the next test we have to get through...

is anyone here afraid of facing the suns in the playoffs? i'm not! their way to win is good if you play tired teams. but in the playoffs when every game has at least 1 or 2 days rest it isn't the same story.

[Siem]

how many rings does steve nash have? I rest my case, so dont try to dog AI like steve nash won a title.

[corona]

What's so hard about trying to alter a shot on the perimeter? You go out, try to impede the shooter's view without fouling, and get a body on him so he feels the pressure and the shot goes astray by one inch and you get the ball back with good rebounding.

tired legs and tired minds mean uncontested perimeter shots for opposing teams. that's why you cannot read into this game.

i watched san antonio leave stephen jackson open from 3 at the top of the key on multiple possessions in the 4th quarter and overtime last night, off a simple double down on baron davis. on two occassions he had enough time to wait, dribble once and then shoot with nobody on the spurs bothering to run at him. that was their 4th game in 5 nights, second of a b2b on the road. its not a coincidence.

[JRmakes_it_rain]

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First of all: Nash and A.I. not apples and oranges? one plays pure PG the other one plays as an SG. a shooting guard is the guy who can create his shot. who has to shot when nobody else can make a shot. that was the case yesterday and you complain about him? iverson made 50 % of his shots i dont know your problem. thats GREAT for a SG!

Second: Your Jordan and A.I. comparrison is absolutely BULL too. Did you see an jordan game? Jordan took every shot that he wanted and passed only if a guy was wide open. Many forget his amazing supporting cast.
-One of the greatest rebounders/defenders/hustlers of all time (who isn't an hall of famer just because stern always had trouble with him on/off the court) Dennis Rodman!
-One of the most versatile players who ever touched the ball with GREAT defense too. Scottie Pippen.
-One/If not the best 3pt shooter of all time. Even in crunchtime! Steve Kerr.
-An amazing all-round european named Toni Kukoc (in his Prime)!
-The best SG who ever played the game. MJ himself!

those are players jordan didn't had in his first NBA years. that's why he didn't won a championchip. This team he had when he won championchips was AMAZING!

Don I sometimes wonder if you've ever watched a game that didn't involve AI. Jordan didn't have any of the guys you just mentioned other then Pippen for his first 3 titles. And when Jordan avg. 37 for a season, he didn't even have Pippen. But I'm not gonna argue Bulls or Jordan with you, cause I doubt you watched any of that era.
My whole point is that AI should play point. I can point to every team thats won a title the last few years, and those teams having an all-star caliber point. AI can't defend 2 guards, so why make him try? I still believe the nuggets offense is at its best when it runs through melo, and he is unselfish with the ball. AI dribbling the ball down, nobody touching it, and him shooting....I don't care how good he shoots, its still not good basketball. How bout the game he scored 51? Great shooting night, we still lost, nobody else other then Melo was involved, and teammates get into a habit of watching when one player dominates the ball.
And for the record, I'm not hitting the "this team can't work" button because of the phoenix loss.....I've been saying this in wins, and losses. We're not built to do anything different in the playoffs then last year, and the year before. Teams will shut down AI, like last year, he will continue to shoot, like last year.....we lose first round again....like last year.
Am I not a nuggets fan because of it? No, I've been one for too long, but I'd like to see some changes, namely a coaching change, and I think the rest would take care of itself.

[pickaxe]

What's so hard about trying to alter a shot on the perimeter? You go out, try to impede the shooter's view without fouling, and get a body on him so he feels the pressure and the shot goes astray by one inch and you get the ball back with good rebounding.

tired legs and tired minds mean uncontested perimeter shots for opposing teams. that's why you cannot read into this game.

i watched san antonio leave stephen jackson open from 3 at the top of the key on multiple possessions in the 4th quarter and overtime last night, off a simple double down on baron davis. on two occassions he had enough time to wait, dribble once and then shoot with nobody on the spurs bothering to run at him. that was their 4th game in 5 nights, second of a b2b on the road. its not a coincidence.

Goes back to having a good rotation throughout the 4 games so there are no exhausted legs? Or maybe just pluck someone like JR and stick him like glue on perimeter shooters.

I'll take the 3 of 4 anyday....but c'mon like AI said, "It's basketball. How could you be too tired to play basketball?"

And we want to be better than the Spurs.

I won't complain about the tired legs.....but why not use fresh legs? There's guys. Karl just waited until 5 minutes left and then threw them all in there at once, like he was saying, "There you go, you've won."

[pickaxe]

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A.I. passed more last year AND at the beginning of the season because he was more used as an PG. since our last 10? 12? 14? games iverson plays ONLY SG and he's doing his job well for an SG. most on this board don't realize this because they say he dribbles too much blabla... the look at his size and think that he's somehow an PG. he tries to make his shot. the ball gets in the SGs hands if nobody else hits a shot (like against the suns) if people don't like what they see they have to give coach karl credit for this. he decided to play A.I. at SG because he saw that A.I.s offensive game made a great step to the top since he wasn't forced to think about not passing enough.

the reason that we lost wasn't lack of ball movement or something stupid like this. in my eyes it really only was the fact that every time we fighted back (like late in the 3rd where we came back to an 11pt deficit) they hit some threes. 20 threes mean 60 points. nuggets had to make 30 FGs to balance it out because they didn't hit the 3pt. there aren't many games where a team hits 20 threes whenever they want and from every player on the field.

Not only is it 60 points, but if those were 2 pointers instead of 3, that's 20 points less. They went into the game thinking, let them shoot.....and when they did that and they started hitting there were no adjustments.

Let em keep shooting. Ok, that one went in. Let them shoot again. Ok, that one went in. Let them shoot again. Ok, that one went in.

Ok, they win. I keep thinking of 'Sheed hitting that half court shot a while ago. After a while it's not just luck....it's a really motivated team trying to break down the Nuggets.

All I'm saying is it's not ok to let them keep shooting. Denver might be good enough to defend them if they're just hitting 2's.

[noone]

My whole point is that AI should play point. I can point to every team thats won a title the last few years, and those teams having an all-star caliber point.

Tony Parker
Jason Williams
Derek Fisher
Avery Johnson
Ron Harper
Steve Kerr
Kenny Smith
B.J. Armstrong

That's going back 16 years. I left out Billups because the team he won it on was a unique team. And before that there was obviously Isiah Thomas. And Tony Parker is borderline.

Another constant on almost all of those teams was that they were among the tops in defensive efficiency (points per 100 possessions). And aside from all the Bulls teams and some of the Lakers teams (who both had some of the most dominant offensive players of their time), they weren't necessarily the most potent offensive teams, sometimes falling in the middle of the league range.

That's no excuse for this Nuggets team though since it has the potential to do MUCH better offensively. But to me it looks more like a flaw in the coaching staff and their offensive "system" than anything else.

As for Iverson playing point. There's no doubt that he should spend at least 15 minutes playing PG with JR coming in as the SG, but again that falls on Karl. Iverson can't control that. Since Atkins has come back, either Carter or Atkins has always been in the entire game.

Edit: Corona may know but I wonder if there's a site that shows offensive efficiency when a player is at different positions. i.e. offensive efficiency when Iverson is at the point vs offensive efficiency when Iverson is at SG.

[JRmakes_it_rain]

My whole point is that AI should play point. I can point to every team thats won a title the last few years, and those teams having an all-star caliber point.

Tony Parker
Jason Williams
Derek Fisher
Avery Johnson
Ron Harper
Steve Kerr
Kenny Smith
B.J. Armstrong

That's going back 16 years. I left out Billups because the team he won it on was a unique team. And before that there was obviously Isiah Thomas. And Tony Parker is borderline.

Another constant on almost all of those teams was that they were among the tops in defensive efficiency (points per 100 possessions). And aside from all the Bulls teams and some of the Lakers teams (who both had some of the most dominant offensive players of their time), they weren't necessarily the most potent offensive teams, sometimes falling in the middle of the league range.

That's no excuse for this Nuggets team though since it has the potential to do MUCH better offensively. But to me it looks more like a flaw in the coaching staff and their offensive "system" than anything else.

As for Iverson playing point. There's no doubt that he should spend at least 15 minutes playing PG with JR coming in as the SG, but again that falls on Karl. Iverson can't control that. Since Atkins has come back, either Carter or Atkins has always been in the entire game.

Edit: Corona may know but I wonder if there's a site that shows offensive efficiency when a player is at different positions. i.e. offensive efficiency when Iverson is at the point vs offensive efficiency when Iverson is at SG.

Your leaving Billups off the list because of what again? The Bulls teams pg is irrlelevant because Pippen played point forward and handled it the majority of the time. When Harper was in, it was Pippen starting the triangle.....and Tony Parker isn't borderline, I hate him, but he's a good point. Why don't we leave Williams off the list, because that heat team was unique also....the offense ran mainly through Wade and Shaq.....lol

my point is that any point off any of the teams winning titles over the years, would be an upgrade to our point, Parker, Billups, Avery Johnson, Kenny Smith/Cassell for the Rockets....even Fischer did a good job of playing point...maybe not all-star caliber, but solid. AC is a journeymen at best, and would be a solid backup point, but not starter. Bottom line is most of the championship teams had somebody solid distributing the ball.

[pickaxe]

try the 82games site


http://www.82games.com/0708/07DEN3C.HTM

[corona]

Why don't we leave Williams off the list, because that heat team was unique also....the offense ran mainly through Wade and Shaq.....lol

but our offense goes all through iverson (sg) & carmelo (sf). so isn't williams very relevant?

try the 82games site

doesn't have it.

i'm not sure any site does. positional ratings tend to be sketchy to begin with (if you look at 82games.com, they'll screw it up a lot of the time), and the amount of team production per possession when a player spends time at a specific possessions is a very specific statistic, that'd only be useful to monitor for a few players (iverson, maybe wade when he plays pg, marion SF vs. PF, and that's all i can really think of)

Goes back to having a good rotation throughout the 4 games so there are no exhausted legs? Or maybe just pluck someone like JR and stick him like glue on perimeter shooters.

i agree that karl's rotation should expand...to include jr smith. particularly when the team's faced with 4 games in 5 nights, without atkins.
but its a little ridiculous to stick a defender like glue to anyone but kobe/tmac/lebron on the perimeter. specifically someone like bell/banks/barbosa. if you're telling a guy to stay on his man on the 3 point line no matter what, you're gonna start giving up penetration and layups like crazy. the nba is about team defense, and help and recover. and you need to do that regardless of the 3 point line.

and denver did defend a lot better after the 1st quarter. without phoenix starting the game like 9/10, and then being 20/27 early in the 2nd quarter...its a different game. and it was basically over by that point. so things did get fixed as the game went along, and rotations were better for the most part....but without completely shutting down phoenix in all aspects or going crazy offensively, we weren't gonna win that game after the first quarter. phoenix is not indiana....without a total miracle, they can't be held to 32 second half points.

[pickaxe]

i don't know....according to that when you juxtapose SG and PG for AI he gets just about the same point production, just by being the assist man instead....

2.4 more assists....4.8 points and more passing...only a 2 point diff. between scoring by pos.

[pickaxe]

Well, here's some other possibilities....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APBRmetrics