Barry Bonds is the greatest player of all time

[sh00n]

No he isn't, nor is he close.

[Stanford]

I'd put him in the top five all time. To say he isn't close is ludicrous.

Second is career WAR
Third in career adjusted OPS+
First in career runs created
All time home run leader
Seven time MVP
Eight time gold glove

When you say he's not close, I feel like we're not even looking at the same player

[3effs]

I'd put him in the top five all time. To say he isn't close is ludicrous.

Second is career WAR
Third in career adjusted OPS+
First in career runs created
All time home run leader
Seven time MVP
Eight time gold glove

When you say he's not close, I feel like we're not even looking at the same player

To say he's not close mean's one of 2 things:

1) You feel that steroids taints everything he did. Which is fine. But that still doesn't change the fact that on the field, he was one of the greatest to ever play.

2) You are biased and hate how much of a douche he was. Which is a horrible reason. Michael Jordan is a douche, but he's one of the greatest to ever lace them up.

Really, it's probably a combination of the two, more so the steroids than anything else. I just think that if it never came out he was a user the perception would be totally different...he was quickly forgot about once he retired and I really think there was some sort of collusion going on. It just doesn't make sense that no team took a chance on him after his time with the Giants. No sense at all. Look at his stats from his last season if you don't believe me.

[Stanford]

Yeah I thought he would have been a good sign for the Rays at that time.

[Ong_dynasty]

I'd put him in the top five all time. To say he isn't close is ludicrous.

Second is career WAR
Third in career adjusted OPS+
First in career runs created
All time home run leader
Seven time MVP
Eight time gold glove

When you say he's not close, I feel like we're not even looking at the same player

To say he's not close mean's one of 2 things:

1) You feel that steroids taints everything he did. Which is fine. But that still doesn't change the fact that on the field, he was one of the greatest to ever play.

2) You are biased and hate how much of a douche he was. Which is a horrible reason. Michael Jordan is a douche, but he's one of the greatest to ever lace them up.

Really, it's probably a combination of the two, more so the steroids than anything else. I just think that if it never came out he was a user the perception would be totally different...he was quickly forgot about once he retired and I really think there was some sort of collusion going on. It just doesn't make sense that no team took a chance on him after his time with the Giants. No sense at all. Look at his stats from his last season if you don't believe me.

I agree, I never understood why an AL team just didnt pick him up as a DH. But didnt he want to stay in the bay area as well or something like that.

[Mr Swagtastic]

ozzie smith griffey and winfield? lollerskates

What's so about Dav Winfield? The guy has 12 all star apperance's 7 gold gloves, 6 sliver slugger, a life time batting average of .283, 3,310 hits, 465 home runs and 1,883 RBI's I would say those are outstanding numbers. I wouldn't laugh at any of that at all.

Griffey was arguably the best CF of his era for every thing. The guy had a cannon for a arm and a great glove a prime Griffey to me will always be one of the most complete players in baseball I have ever seen. I haven't seen too many better then him. Like many people stated he would be the HR champ if he didn't get injured.

I put Ozzie up there for his defense, lets face facts here his backflip catch will be among the best plays in baseball history again look at his numbers 15 all star apperances, 13 gold gloves, a world series, sliver slugger (for a short stop) and a NLCS MVP. Again nothing to lol at either. Look at his fielding numbers 4,249 putouts, 8,375 assists, 281 errors, 1,590 double plays and a .978 fielding percentage. I would argue that Ozzie was a top 3 talent at his position on the defensive end of things.

Bonds has great numbers but his legacy it tarnished to me with the steriods thing. If he would have admitted it I would have been more ok with it but he flatout said no I didn't use 'em. To me his record is garbage

[Stanford]

Why even mention any of those stats? To you, aren't all Bonds' stats 0s? Isn't every player ahead of him when talking about greatest of all time?

If Bonds' entire career is 'tarnished, how is he ahead of Vernon Wells, or Kyle Farsnworth?

I mean, if you want to say steroids put Bonds behind Willie Mays or Ted Williams - fine - but Dave **** Winfield? Really?

[elain]

Ty Cobb is the best ever. I have never seen him play, so I'm pretty confident in my pick.

i agree
http://www.america-jerseys.com/products ... 94_p1.html

[mike_miller]

i love the he cheated the game argument...

i think ty cobb and babe ruth participated in a cheated game and thus their stats should all be *

barry is the greatest baseball player anyone here has ever seen play. its a travesty the way he was treated and i hope one day he gets the respect he earned.

he could step on the field today and rock a 400 ops

[sunshinekids99]

i love the he cheated the game argument...

i think ty cobb and babe ruth participated in a cheated game and thus their stats should all be *

barry is the greatest baseball player anyone here has ever seen play. its a [b]travesty the way he was treated [/b]and i hope one day he gets the respect he earned.

he could step on the field today and rock a 400 ops

The way he was treated? He was one of the biggest pricks to play baseball. Then add the fact he cheated the game. Well in my book he did it to himself.

[craig01]

I saw Mays, Aaron play in their late primes.

Bonds was one of the best ever no doubt, but he played with the "issue" and compiled his some of his greatest stats during that time.

Mays and Aaron played when pitching was dominant, and to me, Mays was a better player than Bonds.

[zhenyasj]

Bonds wasn't all about HRs. How many other players have 500 sb? No other player in this era was as complete as Bonds when you look at speed and power. His HR totals are inflated, but he would still be a 500 hr 500 sb player without them.
To summarize how dominant he was, he was the only player I've seen walked intentionally with the bases loaded to force in a run in a 2 run game.

[Ong_dynasty]

I am not the biggest Baseball historian. but I remember the days when this discussion came along and people who claim that Bonds cheated, the counter argument is. didnt Hank Aaron use Greenies? so why doesn't he have a *.
and about his attitude, I never understand what that has to do with his playing ability.

If you dont like him fair enough, but you can't don't the players talent.

[craig01]

There is no question Bonds was the most dominant player of his era.

The opening thread was about the greatest of all time.

[sunshinekids99]

I am not the biggest Baseball historian. but I remember the days when this discussion came along and people who claim that Bonds cheated, the counter argument is. didnt Hank Aaron use Greenies? so why doesn't he have a *.
and about his attitude, I never understand what that has to do with his playing ability.

If you dont like him fair enough, but you can't don't the players talent.

Little different between steroids and greenies.

[Stanford]

Are greenies now illegal in major league baseball?

755*

[sunshinekids99]

Really a piss poor argument. There is no way you can equate greenies to roids. Amphetamines are taken by players to being run down during the season. A few RedBulls or some guarana extract can solve that problem pretty quick and legally. Their long term side effects significantly outweigh any possible competitive benefit to a baseball player. Steroids are take for one reason only. To deliberately gain a competitive advantage over your opponents. But hey your argument is great too Stanford.

[Stanford]

Steroids are take for one reason only. To deliberately gain a competitive advantage over your opponents.

So are greenies. If you're able to artificially keep yourself going through the long mlb season, you're getting an advantage over those players who choose not to.

[Zeitgeister]

I have no problem with someone saying that Barry Bonds is the greatest of all time. I've been thinking about this a lot lately and though I'm not quite sure I can pick one player as the greatest, Barry has a very compelling argument.

For me there are three or four players that deserve to be listed as the greatest. Barry Bonds, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, and Ken Griffey Jr.

Barry was NOT just a home run threat, he's seriously underrated in some areas because he was a true double threat. He once had a 40 HR 40 stolen bases season, and he's stolen 500 bases over the course of his career. In the 90s he has a strong argument as being the greatest player of that decade, and Griffey is the only other player that has a strong claim as well. Barry played a corner outfield spot but his defense was first rate, as he tallied up several golden gloves. Its not just about the increased power from Bonds though, he has the greatest eye in the history of the game. He's taken more walks than anyone, and that has really propelled his home runs because he always plays intelligently.

Willie Mays was a great defender and hitter, has a very strong argument.

Babe Ruth revolutionized the game with his homerun hitting, and he was a great pitcher as well, which is amazing. He played purely in a white league though so its hard to say how he'd fair now. He'd still be great no doubt, but not sure how great.

Griffey may have ended up the greatest but the injuries derailed his career.

Barry has a very strong case, maybe even before the steroid era but after the era there is no question. I know everyone hates the steroid use but so many people were using it that you needed to take them in order to keep things in the balance. I'm not legitimizing them as I think they hurt the game but I also don't wring my hands in womenly indignation over it like some do.

[sunshinekids99]

Steroids are take for one reason only. To deliberately gain a competitive advantage over your opponents.

So are greenies. If you're able to artificially keep yourself going through the long mlb season, you're getting an advantage over those players who choose not to.

There is a difference between a permanent advantage and one that improves alertness. Seeing with greenies you could get that alertness from something else. If you seriously think both are the same well good for you I guess.