At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than Brady

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Re: At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than B 

Post#81 » by Chicago76 » Tue Feb 7, 2012 6:52 pm

LAKESHOW wrote:
Chicago76 wrote:
LAKESHOW wrote:the only thing about young is, he was just a big choker. dude had solid teams, but couldnt win it until THEY TRULY STACKED THE DECK with primetime and everyone else on that squad. truly talented teams on both sides of the ball. numbers wise he had statistical data to support him, but he never came up big in the clutch.



Again, you're basing an entire career on 3 or 4 games. If we wanna go this route, then we can look at Elway's 6 playoff losses in his first 11 years in the league: 64.0, 61.1, 83.6, 36.8, 19.4, and 49.9. Those were his QB ratings up until the 1994 postseason. Or we can talk about his supposed "47 4Q comebacks" when the actual number is 34.

Terms like clutch and choke are used when people want to confirm their preconceived biases more than anything else.


using statistical data as the sole basis to judge a QB in its totality, shows lack of true experiential knowledge of the game.


Here's the "experiential" context of all of this:
Reeves restricted Elway. No doubt about it. Elway also didn't have good offensive weapons either. His line wasn't good at all, but it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. His sack rates compared to other mobile QBs of his era weren't out of line with expectations.

Elway made a lot of his own problems in the Reeves era, however.
-poor defensive recognition
-poor rush evasion in terms of recognizing where the pressure was coming from and taking a more simple 2 or 3 step approach to dump the ball to an open player in the slot. He often evaded by backing up and then running to the overloaded side of the field.
-great arm but poor touch. He didn't know how to properly weight a ball to dump it off for a high percentage play, which led to him rocketing an uncatchable ball into coverage to a receiver 12 yards downfield with the same velocity required for a 60 yard bomb.
-too much reliance on athleticism at the expense of developing a pocket presence that would make him a more effective QB.

Looking at the 12 QBs with the highest number of non-rookie starts (Elway included) during the Reeves era, Elway ranked dead last in ANY/A+, which is probably the best efficiency metric out there that is easily accessible for that era. I don't care how restricted Elway was, there is no way he should score that poorly behind the likes of Steve DeBerg or guys who didn't qualify based upon starts like Jay Schroeder. Including his rookie year, Elway had exactly 1 more TD pass than INT over his first ten years. Even considering the uphill climb, this isn't good enough for Marino, Montana, Manning, Brady, Young territory. http://pfref.com/tiny/QJbZy This wasn't a case where Elway's weapons were taken away due to injury for a game or a season or two. He had 10 years to figure out how to become a more consistent passer, but he didn't get it done. Given what he had to work with, there's no way could he have ever been as efficient as the other elites in this time period, but he should have been better than what he was.

Move forward to the 4 years after the Reeves era and the 12 QBs with the highest number of non-rookie starts. Those were his best statistical seasons and Elway was still young enough (early to mid 30s) to be effective. Denver was also developing a good offensive skill set (better O line and bigger receivers Elway needed due to short accuracy concerns + TD). He had a couple of years of McCaffrey, 4 good years from Sharpe, Rod Smith at the very tail end, and TD for a couple of years.

He rates 4th out of 12. http://pfref.com/tiny/h3JrR Far behind Young, but with fewer weapons than the Niners. Not enough to make the difference IMO though. A bit behind Aikman, but with fewer weapons. I do think Elway was a much better QB than Aikman. Ahead of Moon and Kelly, who also rate behind Elway to me. He's just a smidge ahead of a younger and less experienced Favre, who I rate basically even with Elway. Marino however probably didn't have as much support and was much more efficient/effective. I can't see an argument in Elway's favor there.

Elway was also getting brought down at a higher rate in those initial post-Reeves years, which confirms what my eyes told me: Elway was still learning how to be a pocket passer. Elway went on to have a couple of his most efficient seasons ever in his final two SB years. I'd take his overall QB support package in those two years (O-line, receiver trio, and 2 great RB seasons) over anything the Niners or Cowboys ever had, however. It's not really fair to compare a 37-38 year old QB anyway.

I wrote a lot (and way off topic) to basically say I like Elway a lot, but not enough to put him fully into that top category. He and Favre are better than the bulk of HOF QBs who entered the league in the SB era. His overall QB skills were just a notch below the best of that extended era of Montana, Marino, Manning, Brady, Young, and Staubach. If someone wants to argue Young doesn't quite belong because he was handed the keys to a Ferrari that was slowly built in Montana's reign when SY had a lot of maturity, fine. You can argue context all day long with that group of five (defensive help, weapons, O line, dome/outdoors, quality of Ds faced, schemes, etc.). Elway never got himself in the ballpark over what should have been his most productive seasons. You can blame personnel and Reeves for some of that, but a lot of it comes down to QBing skills, Xs and Os, and maturity that fall on Elway's shoulders. In terms of raw ability, he could pull a rabbit out of a hat in spurts, but his overall consistency was lacking...which is partially responsible for him having those 4Q opportunities. Elway gets some credit for getting Denver to multiple SBs in the Reeves era, but let's not forget the AFC competition in that period was pretty awful.
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Re: At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than B 

Post#82 » by godgil » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:52 pm

I don't see why the number of Super Bowls a person wins should have such a huge emphasis on how they stack up as a player, individually. Did you watch SB 46? Brady was amazing, but he is in the same class as Joe Montana, who is known as the greatest ever.
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Re: At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than B 

Post#83 » by TONY_YAYO » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:12 pm

Brady is definitely in the same class as Montana just b/c he lost THE SUPER BOWL doesnt tarnish his legacy. He did make it to the SB with a defense ranked 31st. Montana had arguably the GOAT Reciever Jerry Rice for 2/4 SB wins and Brady had Troy Brown for 3 SB wins. Wes Welker was a dropped pass away from sealing the dam thing So I dont see how Brady still not in the convo. Nobody expected New England to be in the SB with that defense but they did. Brady still has few years left but going to 5 Superbowls is no joke. Especially when u look at the personnel he played with.
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Post#84 » by Siem » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:56 am

an_also wrote:Elway had the least amount of offensive talent to work with till the mid 90s. The dude basically carried the broncos to superbowls were subsequently they got blasted by drastically superior teams. Elway is a top 3 qb.


I have to disagree with the least amount of offensive talent. Maybe for the SB winning Qbs.. In the 90's Dan Marino had nobody.. He made O.J. McDuffie into a respectable WR. In the 80's he had Mark Duper and Mark Clayton, but after that nothing..Not to mention his defenses were terrible for the most of his career and he only had 1 one thousand yard rushing season from a RB in his entire career...Its a Shame. Thats why Teams win championships and not a player..A QB can have an impact, but if he doesnt have the team, then its a moot point...

Tom Brady is a perfect Example. He has 3 Superbowl Rings, but the Last 4 years he is clearly a better QB than he was in his superbowl runs...But in the last 4 years he has 0 Rings...

If I had to say the Best QB of this Era, I'd have to go with Peyton, Yes I know his playoff record isnt great 9-10, but he's had Dan Marino type defenses for the majority of his career..The playoffs expose weaknesses.. I remember A playoff game against KC, I think Peyton Threw for 5tds and they still lost... The Pats D were bad this year but they didnt give up alot of points...The Colts defenses gave up yards and points. Rarely could Peyton get away with a Average game and the Colts win.. Peyton and Brady arent retired yet so they have time to work on thier legacies.
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Re: At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than B 

Post#85 » by Siem » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:00 am

Trent Dilfer one of ESPN's Actually Good analyst studies probably the most tape besides Jaws...He said when examing Tom Brady he's Elite and one of the Best Pre-snap Qb's, analyzing and making checks etc...But he said he's not great beyond the x's and o's, He's great within the system... After the snap he says he's Not 1 of the elite Qb's. When the Defense throws a wrench after the Snap he says Brady is average... I found this interesting when debating QB's, its something that even us hardcore football fans may not notice,,,but guys like Trent and Jaws can point that out.
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Re: At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than B 

Post#86 » by LAKESHOW » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:14 am

Siem wrote:Trent Dilfer one of ESPN's Actually Good analyst studies probably the most tape besides Jaws...He said when examing Tom Brady he's Elite and one of the Best Pre-snap Qb's, analyzing and making checks etc...But he said he's not great beyond the x's and o's, He's great within the system... After the snap he says he's Not 1 of the elite Qb's. When the Defense throws a wrench after the Snap he says Brady is average... I found this interesting when debating QB's, its something that even us hardcore football fans may not notice,,,but guys like Trent and Jaws can point that out.

JOHN ELWAY is therefore the GREATEST QB in the history of the game.
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Re: At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than B 

Post#87 » by treiz » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:03 am

^But Peyton was better than Elway at those things.

I don't understand why people are bringing down Brady just because he's lost 2. People seem to forget that it's perhaps just as difficult getting to the Superbowl than winning it and he's been to 5, how many QBs have that in their resume. Also, the play-off system in the NFL makes it that much harder to get there.
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Re: At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than B 

Post#88 » by TONY_YAYO » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:03 pm

Siem wrote:Trent Dilfer one of ESPN's Actually Good analyst studies probably the most tape besides Jaws...He said when examing Tom Brady he's Elite and one of the Best Pre-snap Qb's, analyzing and making checks etc...But he said he's not great beyond the x's and o's, He's great within the system... After the snap he says he's Not 1 of the elite Qb's. When the Defense throws a wrench after the Snap he says Brady is average... I found this interesting when debating QB's, its something that even us hardcore football fans may not notice,,,but guys like Trent and Jaws can point that out.

The fact it came from Dilfer who aint fit to where Brady shoes..........This so-called system that everybody talks about what is that.........Either you great or your not........He's not great after the snap. LMAo give me a break. He carves up defenses he took a team DEFENSE RANKED 31st in the NFL to the SB. And after the snap he's not elite Where is this making any sense ? LMAo @ Trent Dilfer
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Re: At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than B 

Post#89 » by Siem » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:26 am

TONY_YAYO wrote:
Siem wrote:Trent Dilfer one of ESPN's Actually Good analyst studies probably the most tape besides Jaws...He said when examing Tom Brady he's Elite and one of the Best Pre-snap Qb's, analyzing and making checks etc...But he said he's not great beyond the x's and o's, He's great within the system... After the snap he says he's Not 1 of the elite Qb's. When the Defense throws a wrench after the Snap he says Brady is average... I found this interesting when debating QB's, its something that even us hardcore football fans may not notice,,,but guys like Trent and Jaws can point that out.

The fact it came from Dilfer who aint fit to where Brady shoes..........This so-called system that everybody talks about what is that.........Either you great or your not........He's not great after the snap. LMAo give me a break. He carves up defenses he took a team DEFENSE RANKED 31st in the NFL to the SB. And after the snap he's not elite Where is this making any sense ? LMAo @ Trent Dilfer


So Trent Dilfer loses credibility as A Analyst, B/c he wasnt a Great QB :roll: ... The Guy admits He cant lace none of those guys shoes. Even with his SB Ring he admits he's not In Marino's class. Its just something he pointed out from watching numerous film... His point is if the defense makes adjustments after the snap, Brady is easier to fool than the Likes of Peyton, Rodgers etc... I'd take Trent at his word, he's a Brady fan, he's just being an honest analyst.....As for what exactly is the System... I dont really know lol.
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Re: At this point,how anybody think,Montana is better than B 

Post#90 » by Bucksfans1and2 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:52 am

Dilfer's right, to an extent. Brady is outstanding with his reads, however you'll have a few plays a season where something happens (a CB trips) and Brady doesn't look to see if a guy is open because he shouldn't be open because of the cooverage.

Rodgers does the same thing to an extent. One of his INTs this year was because one of the Giant LBs (I think Blackburn) blew the coverage and ran to the wrong zone. He threw the ball to where the open receiver should've been, but Blackburn (?) was standing in the wrong/right spot.

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