Turning around the Browns

[LAKESHOW]

If bill bellichek couldn't get it done, it ain't gettin done.

[El Turco]

if only they had the same tools and skill set, i'd buy into that comparison. goff started slow because he played from pistol or shotgun in college but he was drafted so high because he had great mechanics, it is not big a shock for him to do well once he acclimated to nfl. kizer drafted strictly because his physical tools, he had bad mechanics and was a bad decision maker in college and nothing he showed so far says he improved on those.

but hey anything is possible, browns have such great track record developing players right?

Kizer has a lot more than physical tools.. the problem for him has always been quick reading defensive changes. His mechanics aren't the problem - much like Goff, he has a tendency to overthrow in the face of pressure. Goff took an offseason and worked on it, the results are now there. I can see the same happening with Kizer, especially with his weapons now all healthy/off-suspension and having an offseason together.

He makes maddening throws for sure, but I've been watching him closely since week 1, and he's definitely getting more comfortable and making more reads than before. I think the biggest issue, outside of the overthrows, is that he's the anti-Alex Smith: checkdown averse. And if you are going to be a Cam Newton type QB, you have to protect the ball that way. Duke should be near 80 catches right now if Kizer was more willing to get the 5 yards instead of the 10-15 yards he'd always try and get w/scrubs.

And that last part is so lame. Logos don't develop players. 3 years ago, you could say the same for the Raiders. 2 years ago, Jacksonville. Superstition about logos is just ridiculous..

logos owned by owners, and they make the hires to develop players. maybe 5 years is not very long enough to judge haslam but he and his team have shown enough incompetency to warrant pessimism. they cant even execute simple trades among other things.

[Otis Driftwood]

if only they had the same tools and skill set, i'd buy into that comparison. goff started slow because he played from pistol or shotgun in college but he was drafted so high because he had great mechanics, it is not big a shock for him to do well once he acclimated to nfl. kizer drafted strictly because his physical tools, he had bad mechanics and was a bad decision maker in college and nothing he showed so far says he improved on those.

but hey anything is possible, browns have such great track record developing players right?

Kizer has a lot more than physical tools.. the problem for him has always been quick reading defensive changes. His mechanics aren't the problem - much like Goff, he has a tendency to overthrow in the face of pressure. Goff took an offseason and worked on it, the results are now there. I can see the same happening with Kizer, especially with his weapons now all healthy/off-suspension and having an offseason together.

He makes maddening throws for sure, but I've been watching him closely since week 1, and he's definitely getting more comfortable and making more reads than before. I think the biggest issue, outside of the overthrows, is that he's the anti-Alex Smith: checkdown averse. And if you are going to be a Cam Newton type QB, you have to protect the ball that way. Duke should be near 80 catches right now if Kizer was more willing to get the 5 yards instead of the 10-15 yards he'd always try and get w/scrubs.

And that last part is so lame. Logos don't develop players. 3 years ago, you could say the same for the Raiders. 2 years ago, Jacksonville. Superstition about logos is just ridiculous..

Kizer's mechanics are awful, FNQ. And it's a variety of things associated with them. Footwork... balance... squaring up... things he is going to have to concentrate on this offseason to correct. I see a lot of it with Dak as well. When his mechanics are sound, Dak throws consistently and to the receiver or where the receiver will be. But I've seen way too many times where he doesn't square himself or he's throwing off the wrong foot and the ball either sails or ends up at the receiver's feet... or worse. The games and highlights I've seen with Kizer - seen the same. Yes - he must improve his decision making as does any young QB. But a big part of that is getting the other facets of his game squared away as well.

[FNQ]

if only they had the same tools and skill set, i'd buy into that comparison. goff started slow because he played from pistol or shotgun in college but he was drafted so high because he had great mechanics, it is not big a shock for him to do well once he acclimated to nfl. kizer drafted strictly because his physical tools, he had bad mechanics and was a bad decision maker in college and nothing he showed so far says he improved on those.

but hey anything is possible, browns have such great track record developing players right?

Kizer has a lot more than physical tools.. the problem for him has always been quick reading defensive changes. His mechanics aren't the problem - much like Goff, he has a tendency to overthrow in the face of pressure. Goff took an offseason and worked on it, the results are now there. I can see the same happening with Kizer, especially with his weapons now all healthy/off-suspension and having an offseason together.

He makes maddening throws for sure, but I've been watching him closely since week 1, and he's definitely getting more comfortable and making more reads than before. I think the biggest issue, outside of the overthrows, is that he's the anti-Alex Smith: checkdown averse. And if you are going to be a Cam Newton type QB, you have to protect the ball that way. Duke should be near 80 catches right now if Kizer was more willing to get the 5 yards instead of the 10-15 yards he'd always try and get w/scrubs.

And that last part is so lame. Logos don't develop players. 3 years ago, you could say the same for the Raiders. 2 years ago, Jacksonville. Superstition about logos is just ridiculous..

Kizer's mechanics are awful, FNQ. And it's a variety of things associated with them. Footwork... balance... squaring up... things he is going to have to concentrate on this offseason to correct. I see a lot of it with Dak as well. When his mechanics are sound, Dak throws consistently and to the receiver or where the receiver will be. But I've seen way too many times where he doesn't square himself or he's throwing off the wrong foot and the ball either sails or ends up at the receiver's feet... or worse. The games and highlights I've seen with Kizer - seen the same. Yes - he must improve his decision making as does any young QB. But a big part of that is getting the other facets of his game squared away as well.

Biggest issue is his footwork (at least, the catalyst for other things), and that's been getting better. I'd wager his footwork tends to go to hell when he can't find anyone to pass to, and then gets the happy feet - actually reminds me of David Carr in that regard. Last week, he looked a TON better, with his bad throws coming under extreme pressure or while on the move. But when the Browns gave him a pocket, he was able to find Gordon and Njoku for big gains.

He's no franchise QB by a longshot, but with a little more talent, there's no reason he can't be a poor man's Cam.

Re:Dak, I think it's the same thing with vastly different environments. Dak felt so very little pressure his 1st season, and was able to get into a groove. Browns invested heavily in their OL, but with Thomas hurt and Zeitler just utterly flopping, they'll need to take another stab at it for Kizer to have sustained success. Frankly I dont think any of the QBs in the draft are going to be able to win with what the Browns currently have as a supporting cast either.

[FNQ]

Haslam gonna Haslam:

Sashi Brown has been fired after 1.75 seasons. Most likely this is the fallout of the AJ McCarron 'trade', the one that Hue wanted but both Sashi/DePodesta did not that 'accidentally' didn't make it to the league in time. But on the plus side, the Browns are looking at John Dorsey, who was run out of KC for - of course - not getting along with coach and management.

As a Raider fan, I can't overstate the danger of letting Hue Jackson win a power struggle. He's a great offensive mind but he has no eye for the front office - he's a designated sucker in trades, and gets tunnel vision when he finds someone he wants.

So screw Tyrod Taylor or anyone who might make sense for the Browns, this move pretty much guarantees that AJ McCarron is going to get overpaid heavily by the Browns. For a team with a few great vertical threats and a now suspect pass blocking OL, I just cant see this working out.

[Pharmcat]

i wouldve kept sashi, let him see this through...I thought it was more being ticked off at seeing Wentz and Watson dominate and not having them on CLE

[FNQ]

i wouldve kept sashi, let him see this through...I thought it was more being ticked off at seeing Wentz and Watson dominate and not having them on CLE

The rumor mill is saying (Hue Jackson apologist Michael Silver) that Sashi was the one who passed on Watson, didnt want Goff, and was ok with passing on Wentz - though Hue was the one who was against drafting Wentz that high. Sashi was also the one who ultimately wanted Kessler/Kizer with the SRP, thought that value - and pretty much of all his other picks as well - is TBD.

Between that and the "bungled" trade - which since Sashi and Depodesta had made many trades before, was almost definitely intentional - someone had to go, and the Browns felt that Sashi should be that person. Rightly so, IMO, as it gives the Browns some brief continuity as they try and turn this around. But here's hoping someone talks Hue out of the AJ McCarron sweepstakes.

[FNQ]

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Forgot that he wanted Mahomes too..

[OsuCavsfan103]

Hue has to go as well, for an offensive guru, our offense has gotten worse this year than last year. There is also zero discipline on this team.

Great start so far. getting rid of Sashi, getting rid of Britt. So far so good. Hue should go next, he sucks.

[Otis Driftwood]

I can't see how Dorsey keeps Hue. Can't blame all of this mess on Sashi alone. To act like Hue didn't have input on personnel (as Silver has maintained for years going back to Hue's Raider days) is absurd. This thing has to be blown up (again). Hue isn't a solution. He's just more of the same.

[Celtsfan1980]

If the Browns go 0-16, does the poor officiating in Sunday's game get any attention? The NFL has had some horrible teams in the past. Does a 0-16 team with a better point differential than many teams go down as one of the worst ever?

[Otis Driftwood]

If the Browns go 0-16, does the poor officiating in Sunday's game get any attention? The NFL has had some horrible teams in the past. Does a 0-16 team with a better point differential than many teams go down as one of the worst ever?

I don't think so. I'm sure Lions fans can point at a number of officiating gaffes from their 2008 season but all anyone sees ten years later is 0-16.

[Worm Guts]

I actually remember the Vikings needing a last second, controversial PI call to set up a game winning field goal against the 2008 Lions. So no, people don't remember that stuff.

[LAKESHOW]

I'm glad darnold is not the #1 QB. Hopefully they take Rosen or Mayfield.

[FNQ]

Hue has to go as well, for an offensive guru, our offense has gotten worse this year than last year. There is also zero discipline on this team.

Great start so far. getting rid of Sashi, getting rid of Britt. So far so good. Hue should go next, he sucks.

Hue can go, but they replaced an effective jumpballer in Pryor for an ineffective Britt. They've lost their best OL, and Crowell's regressed significantly with teams stacking the box against him.

But that's all changed since Josh Gordon/Corey Coleman have been on the field together. Kizer's looked much better, and people shouldn't forget this is a kid who's not even 22 yet and was known to be a bit of a project. If it were any team but the Browns, I think fans would be more excited about a QB who's making strides.. of course, the whole spin-throw at the end of the GB game was sobering, but going 20-28 (3:2 TD/INT) and making the offense viable despite not doing anything with his legs is a bit promising. He only went under when he went back to his skittish feet in the pocket.

They have 3 tough defenses in a row to close the season, and if Kizer continues to build on the last game, I think the better move for the Browns is to pursue a veteran QB in free agency or via trade, and have them challenge Kizer. Tyrod Taylor remains my preference there due to his ball-control and ability to keep plays alive. Would be a great person to teach Kizer as well.. frees up the Browns to get a dominant RB in Barkley, and use the Texans' 1st rounder on someone like Bradley Chubb, Arden Key, or Denzel Ward and really shore up their pass defense.

And if the Browns do draft a QB in the 1st 2 days, I see a lot more value in Baker Mayfield or Clayton Thorson in the 2nd than Darnold, Rosen, or Jackson the 1st. But if they do take a QB #1 overall, it has to be Rosen. Jackson isn't as ready now, and you have to hope Rosen matures into a leader. And if they could pair it with getting Bryce Love in the early 2nd.. that would do a lot for their offense too.

[FNQ]

I'm glad darnold is not the #1 QB. Hopefully they take Rosen or Mayfield.

Darnold has been so bad this year, Im not even sure he goes top 4 despite 3 of those teams likely drafting QBs. Let's say he drops to Denver at 4.. do they take him? Think they'd be more inclined to offer the #4 for a vet QB like Cousins, and the Redskins would probably take that.

[OsuCavsfan103]

Hue has to go as well, for an offensive guru, our offense has gotten worse this year than last year. There is also zero discipline on this team.

Great start so far. getting rid of Sashi, getting rid of Britt. So far so good. Hue should go next, he sucks.

Hue can go, but they replaced an effective jumpballer in Pryor for an ineffective Britt. They've lost their best OL, and Crowell's regressed significantly with teams stacking the box against him.

But that's all changed since Josh Gordon/Corey Coleman have been on the field together. Kizer's looked much better, and people shouldn't forget this is a kid who's not even 22 yet and was known to be a bit of a project. If it were any team but the Browns, I think fans would be more excited about a QB who's making strides.. of course, the whole spin-throw at the end of the GB game was sobering, but going 20-28 (3:2 TD/INT) and making the offense viable despite not doing anything with his legs is a bit promising. He only went under when he went back to his skittish feet in the pocket.

They have 3 tough defenses in a row to close the season, and if Kizer continues to build on the last game, I think the better move for the Browns is to pursue a veteran QB in free agency or via trade, and have them challenge Kizer. Tyrod Taylor remains my preference there due to his ball-control and ability to keep plays alive. Would be a great person to teach Kizer as well.. frees up the Browns to get a dominant RB in Barkley, and use the Texans' 1st rounder on someone like Bradley Chubb, Arden Key, or Denzel Ward and really shore up their pass defense.

And if the Browns do draft a QB in the 1st 2 days, I see a lot more value in Baker Mayfield or Clayton Thorson in the 2nd than Darnold, Rosen, or Jackson the 1st. But if they do take a QB #1 overall, it has to be Rosen. Jackson isn't as ready now, and you have to hope Rosen matures into a leader. And if they could pair it with getting Bryce Love in the early 2nd.. that would do a lot for their offense too.

Oh I know it, letting TP go and signing Britt is part of the reason Sashi is gone. Then to add that he tried to trade for TP after the fact is laughable.

Kizer looked better sure. The big problem with him is turnovers, especially as untimely as possible. All year long you can count on him getting into the red-zone only to throw an INT. Gordon, Coleman and him looked great the other day together at some pts, but it was against a weak and depleted GB D. The rest of the year will show us more, but I'd imagine at this point he is done for. New GM likely wants his own QB. I personally would love to see us sign a proven QB for a few years, then no matter if we keep Kizer or draft another QB, we let them learn for a few years. Honestly even if not great, throw some serious money at Cousins, or see about a trade for Eli, and for a few years and let them be the stopgap, let them be a guy who can win us a handful of games while we groom a new QB. No Browns fan expects .500 football even yet, just get us 4-5 wins even next year, show a pulse.

The only guy I like of the QB's early is Rosen. Honestly I like Mayfield more than any of them to be honest, so he is someone we could look to grab later. I would be fine with either one. I would also be fine to grab neither, and instead go Barkley and Ridley instead and sign a quality QB in FA.

The biggest thing to me is we actually need to use our early picks. Enough trading back nonsense. This year it really could pay off if we just use the dang picks as we are basically a lock for #1 again and Texans are looking to put us into the top 10 easily. We have traded back and missed out so much. The whole quantity over quality isn't working.

[wco81]

How has Garrett played?

Has he lived up to the hype?

[OsuCavsfan103]

How has Garrett played?

Has he lived up to the hype?

Eh not bad, 5 sacks in 8 games so far I believe. He hasn't really been a 3 down player, so it's hard to tell.

He has shown flashes, but overall he hasn't really had much of an impact on a game yet.

So far for the hype, I'd say no, but he hasn't shown to be tracking to be a bust yet at least.

[Celtsfan1980]

I actually remember the Vikings needing a last second, controversial PI call to set up a game winning field goal against the 2008 Lions. So no, people don't remember that stuff.

I recall it did at least get a lot of attention from the media unlike the Browns-Packers bad calls.