Welcome to Detroit Jalen Duren!

[treefi]

Why are so many ragging on Marvin Bagley. Cleveland Cavaliers have Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, two big men in their lineup and no one seems to be complaining about them. We know Jared Allen doesn't have much range but let us look closer at Evan Mobley. Mobley shot 51% from the two point range. Marvin Bagley shot 55% in 18 games from the two-point range with the Pistons. Mobley May 25% I repeat 25% of his 3-point shots. Marvin made 23% of his three-point shots. Mobley is celebrated and Marvin Bagley is vilified. Give it a chance

Mobley and Allen are both superior defenders. That's the main difference (and why Duren has much higher potential at this point). Also Mobley was a 19/20-year-old rookie last year who is widely expected to develop 3-point range (we'll see). The reason people rag on Bagley is because he doesn't provide much on defense in addition to lacking range on his shot. It's a tough combination in today's NBA. 20 years ago he would've probably fit into the league like a young Amar'e Stoudemire without shot blocking ability.

[mattao313]

Cleveland doesn't even have a good offense anyway I think it's ranked 20 so using them as a example doesn't make sense. They make their money on the defensive end and Bagley isn't helping on that side either.

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[whitehops]

Why are so many ragging on Marvin Bagley. Cleveland Cavaliers have Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, two big men in their lineup and no one seems to be complaining about them.

i think it's worth mentioning that the cavaliers didn't have a good offense despite having an all star PG. their offense ranked 20th in the league, it was their defense that carried the team for most of the year. i think that's probably why they drafted arguably the best shooter in the draft to supplement the lack of shooting from their front court.

[flow]

I have also said the same thing. Outside shooting isn't the end-all. Having two elite lob-threats for Cade/Ivey to throw the ball to, along with one three-point shooter is going to be insane.

I really don't think people are looking at the upside of that;

Ivey-Insane speed ball handling and leaking up-court. Also a lob threat. Elite lane cutting. Elite body control for rim finishes. Makes the basic pass for lobs, and open shooters.

Duren-Highest end lob threat available. Elite one handed and awkward catch and dunk. Amazing hops. Finishes around the rim an an elite level. Elite down-court speed. Basic jumper.

Bagley-excellent lob-threat. Very good one handed catch and dunks, good at awkward finishes. Good low post threat, face-up. Has a three-point shot albeit inconsistent.

Cade-Elite court awareness. Elite lob pass threat. Very good post passer, and finisher. Loves the 4-out down the floor, should be amazing in this group. Sets own pace.

You can then throw in Bey/Livers/Burks and get that 3-point weapon that keeps the extra man honest. I believe that lineup is going to not only going to win the Pistons a bunch of games, it will be the most exciting, and amongst the most exciting in the league.

Having two non shooting "lob threats" with Cade and Ivey if going to be tough to make work unless Ivey is a better shooter than we saw in college.


If you put Cade on a high pick and roll with Bagley and the defense likely shifts to Cade and he passes out to Bagley... Bagley needs to be able to catch and shoot that jumper or put the ball on the floor. Its going to be hard to pick and roll in if Duren's man is already in the paint with Duren... or standing near the paint with Duren outside the paint..... if this is the case you're going to need bigs being able to make money passes to bigs because the defense will shift/adjust to stop Cade and then the first big that catches the ball.

You're also going to see Cade/Ivey getting higher TOs because the floor isn't properly spaced and defensive will shift pressure to Cade if his teammates aren't capable of making the defense pay for cheating on Cade.

"Two Lob Threats" is tough because one player can defend both lob threats... but one player can't defend a screener that sets the screen and pops to 15 ft and a lob threat at the same time. You really need both to work a pick and roll right or else good defenses will shut down what you're trying to do.... or at least make it more difficult for your ball handler because they don't have to worry about the screener hitting a jumper.

Everything you've stated makes sense in a slow, half-court set, not on the fast-break now with the new rules, and in super fast before the defense sets up half-court sets which is what I was eluding to.

That group has insane speed, athleticism, along with a floor general with great vision.

It'll be amazing to watch.

The bold isn't going to happen. Not off of made baskets. Not with any degree of regularity.

[bstein14]

Why are so many ragging on Marvin Bagley. Cleveland Cavaliers have Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, two big men in their lineup and no one seems to be complaining about them. We know Jared Allen doesn't have much range but let us look closer at Evan Mobley. Mobley shot 51% from the two point range. Marvin Bagley shot 55% in 18 games from the two-point range with the Pistons. Mobley May 25% I repeat 25% of his 3-point shots. Marvin made 23% of his three-point shots. Mobley is celebrated and Marvin Bagley is vilified. Give it a chance

No 3 and No D for $37.5 million over 3 years is tough in what we saw was a weaker FA market. Guys of similar age and skillset got much less. He's still getting paid on potential sure, but the reality is he's our biggest longest contract on a previously (FINALLY) clean cap.... and he didn't have to be. Could have easily scooped him up for 2/21 based on everything we've seen... especially since he was a RFA.

Also, he doesn't fit great with Duren, and some of the rest of the lineup we already have.

He does have a nice offensive skillset for sure, and I'm hopeful he ends up being a decent signing for us.... but in the current NBA you need one of your bigs on the floor to be able to knock down a 15 ft jumper after setting a screen... having two non shooting bigs just isn't a good fit and we saw awful shooting last year.

[Manocad]

“Can’t shoot” and “non-shooting” gets thrown around here waaaaaaay too much. It’s not like any of these guys are shooting 30% on jumpers or not taking any.

bagley had 200 field goal attempts with us last season. only 14 of them came between 10 feet and the 3 point line (7% of his shots). he hit two of those 14 for which is 14.3%.

he shot some more mid range with sacramento but his totals on the year are taking 41 of his 446 shots from mid range (9%) and hitting only 12 of them - 29%.

combine that with shooting 24% from 3 and i would say bagley qualifies.

If your offensive game plan is to take a player who is skilled at scoring in the paint and expecting him to shoot between 10 feet and the 3 point line instead, you’re doing it wrong. There is no law dictating that every team’s offense must be molded after this imaginary “new NBA.”

The narrative being pushed here is that the front court should clear out, i.e. “space the floor,” to allow the backcourt to drive and operate in the paint while the front court shoots jumpers and 3’s after getting kickout passes. Which makes no sense.

[Manocad]

“Can’t shoot” and “non-shooting” gets thrown around here waaaaaaay too much. It’s not like any of these guys are shooting 30% on jumpers or not taking any.

Remember, if you say it enough times, it becomes true. If you can't shoot 3's then you can't shoot. People keep mentioning "the new NBA" but it's really just "the new fans" that's hard to adjust to.

By the way, the champs have 2 guys in their starting lineup that can't hit the ocean outside of 5 feet. Clearly you don't need 5 guys shooting 3s.

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Exactly. The translation of “the new NBA” is “this is what I want the offense to look like” with no parallelism to what’s winning championships.

[rmfc]

Bagley never had any trouble scoring the basketball. He is going to be even more effective on offense with the future backcourt (Cade-Ivey). 3-point shot is not the be-all, end-all.

Bagley's defense is the problem.

[Rodman]

Why are so many ragging on Marvin Bagley. Cleveland Cavaliers have Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, two big men in their lineup and no one seems to be complaining about them. We know Jared Allen doesn't have much range but let us look closer at Evan Mobley. Mobley shot 51% from the two point range. Marvin Bagley shot 55% in 18 games from the two-point range with the Pistons. Mobley May 25% I repeat 25% of his 3-point shots. Marvin made 23% of his three-point shots. Mobley is celebrated and Marvin Bagley is vilified. Give it a chance

You’re comparing two the best defenders in the world to Marvin Bagley.

Mobley shoots way better and more from 10ft-20ft

Marvin can play with his back to the basket in certain lineups; With Kelly O and small ball lineups. Marvin can play. This isnt rocket science. All you have to do is figure out how to best use him

[breezypeezy]

Claiming one defender can defend the paint against two strong guards, two bigs and a good 3pt shooter is an enormous lack of imagination.
It presupposes that the ball will fall into a black hole as soon as a big touches it. It ignores the possibility that a second pass or even a second screen can still be set. It presupposes the ball cannot be kicked out, it imagines that both Ivey and Cade are going to go sit in the front row and watch the rest of play once a single pass has been made.
In a word, it's a ridiculous notion.

[zeebneeb]

Bagley never had any trouble scoring the basketball. He is going to be even more effective on offense with the future backcourt (Cade-Ivey). 3-point shot is not the be-all, end-all.

Bagley's defense is the problem.

This is exactly how I see it, but with the added caveat that his defense is not an issue of effort, or physical attributes, but of poor court awareness, and positioning. That means it's more then likely three pronged. Horrendous coaching(Luke Walton says hello) a lack of understanding of how to play defense, and coming into a new system.

Bagley came here with less then zero expectations, bum, bust, e.t.c. and almost immediately showed that he not only could play, and is skilled, but that he played well, and made Cade a better player because of his mere presence, and what he can do on offense. He hustled his ass off, and played like a professional.

Why some here are absolutely brutal to Bagley is something I just can't wrap my head around, and normally I don't care all that much, but I'm actually kinda irked by some attitudes, and it almost seems like they want him to fail. He's played 18 damn games for the Pistons, and everyone's an expert.

I'm really hoping his defense improves with coaching, as this is exactly what Casey is good at, player development.

All I'm saying is exactly the same thing I've maintained about Killian, is give it time. In Bagley's case, a full year should be more then enough to truly know what he's all about. Consistent minutes, and a consistent role.

What happened to rooting for the underdog?

[breezypeezy]

He's showed enough ability to deserve a fraction of the leash length many want to bend over backwards to give Stewart and Killian. Both of whom are likely to prove to be much less valuable players over there careers.

[Pharaoh]

Think Bags will start and hopefully his D is much improved after a full off-season and training camp with our coaches.

I'm hopeful Duren gets plenty of minutes but given his age and the roster construction I can't see him averaging more than 20 per game unless we're actively tanking (hope we don't)



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[Rodman]

why does Bagley have to be this perfect player. He is an effective back to the basket player. In addition he is worth 35 mil for 3 years. Weaver says he is. He obviously has a vision in mind for Marvin.

[MrBigShot]

Bagley is sort of like Greg Monroe in that he's a big that doesn't impact the game defensively or stretch the floor. Moose is a far superior passer while Bagley is a much better athlete, but there are parallels.

I just can't help but wonder if there were any teams really interested in him, feels like Weaver just outbid himself. Gary Payton II is far more impactful, was a rotation player for a championship team, and he got 3/28.

[Pharaoh]

Bagley is sort of like Greg Monroe in that he's a big that doesn't impact the game defensively or stretch the floor. Moose is a far superior passer while Bagley is a much better athlete, but there are parallels.

I just can't help but wonder if there were any teams really interested in him, feels like Weaver just outbid himself. Gary Payton II is far more impactful, was a rotation player for a championship team, and he got 3/28.

Do you believe GP2 will start in Portland?

Do you believe he would have signed here for that exact contract?

We're paying 12 mil per for Bags. That's close to what most of us expected

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[Drwho17]

When are they going to finalize this guys deal, SL starts Thursday and he's still not officially acquired yet, not showing up on spotrac or the SL roster.

[FloridaMan78]

When are they going to finalize this guys deal, SL starts Thursday and he's still not officially acquired yet, not showing up on spotrac or the SL roster.

No NBA transactions can occur between July 1-6.

Tomorrow the trade can be official.

[Drwho17]

When are they going to finalize this guys deal, SL starts Thursday and he's still not officially acquired yet, not showing up on spotrac or the SL roster.

No NBA transactions can occur between July 1-6.

Tomorrow the trade can be official.

Trade was done June 23rd, Kemba Walker is listed on the Pistons per spotrac., Duren is still listed as on the Knicks though as a cap hold. I think it is odd, hopefully it goes official then and he plays in the SL.

[FloridaMan78]

When are they going to finalize this guys deal, SL starts Thursday and he's still not officially acquired yet, not showing up on spotrac or the SL roster.

No NBA transactions can occur between July 1-6.

Tomorrow the trade can be official.

Trade was done June 23rd, Kemba Walker is listed on the Pistons per spotrac., Duren is still listed as on the Knicks though as a cap hold. I think it is odd, hopefully it goes official then and he plays in the SL.

They didn’t officially put it through. I think they thought they might add something to it during free agency.

The Moratorium started on the first, so they have to wait. All the “done” trades aren’t really official. Nothing that happened between July1st to July6th is “official” but it’s “done”