Some way too early 5 man lineup stats.

bstein14 · Post #1 » by **bstein14** » Thu Nov 3, 2022 11:33 pm

Cade - Ivey - Bey - Bojan - Stewart have played more minutes together than any other 5 man unit in the entire league. 167 minutes together thus far. Atlanta's starting lineup is in second place. Part of this seems good to get them really familiar with one another, but more so it points to other coaches around the league not playing 5 starters together and then 4 or 5 bench players together. Most coaches try to stagger some bench players with starters more so than what Casey does.

Those 5 guys have a TS% of 57.4% which is slightly above league average.

Killian + CoJo + Diallo + Livers + Duren has as a unit has a TS% of 39.7%
Killian + CoJo + Diallo + Knox + Duren which has a TS% of 24.0%

Two notes on the starting unit.

When we've had CoJo with the other 4 starters and Ivey has been out, its been our 2nd best overall 5 man unit.
Cade + CoJo + Bey + Bojan + Stew

When we've had Diallo with the other 4 starters and Bey has been out, its been our best overall 5 man unit.
Cade + Ivey + Diallo + Bojan + Stew

vege · Post #2 » by **vege** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 12:54 am

My impression was that Cade/Ivey/Livers/Bojan/Stew was our best lineup. That Diallo lineup probably have a super small sample size, and Diallo played well, hitting some mid range shots he doesn't usually hit, but this show we need a better defender than Bey in the starting lineup.

bstein14 · Post #3 » by **bstein14** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 1:15 am

vege wrote:My impression was that Cade/Ivey/Livers/Bojan/Stew was our best lineup. That Diallo lineup probably have a super small sample size, and Diallo played well, hitting some mid range shots he doesn't usually hit, but this show we need a better defender than Bey in the starting lineup.

For sure, besides the 5 starters playing together a bunch most of the other units are small in numbers of minutes played (some just in the 15-20 range together) so its not a very big sample size at all and not necessarily fortelling how that lineup would do with more time.

Perhaps the most interesting data here is that Casey doesn't stager his starters with his bench unit nearly as much as most coaches in the NBA seem to do.

bstein14 · Post #4 » by **bstein14** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 2:20 am

Don't want to start another post for this graphic, so I'm just going to add this here. Bojan has been a top 10 player in the league offensively this season. For sure below average on defense but he's been elite on offense.

Then if you look at the absolute worst offensive player in the league all by himself its no surprise how far out there he is. Showing he's a negative on defense thus far this year as well. Poor Killian.

According to this graphic, Cade has been just as bad as Bojan on defense as well and his offensive impact is much less (largely due to being way less efficient and high TO).

Also, WOW Trae Young on defense is like Killian on offense... by far sticks out as the worst in the league defensively.

vege · Post #5 » by **vege** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 3:28 am

There was a graphic a few days ago showing Bojan was the highest points per possession in his 3 point shots in the entire league. MPJr was the highest percentage considering volume but Bojan was and probably still is the top 3 point shooter in the NBA.

bstein14 · Post #6 » by **bstein14** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 4:35 am

vege wrote:There was a graphic a few days ago showing Bojan was the highest points per possession in his 3 point shots in the entire league. MPJr was the highest percentage considering volume but Bojan was and probably still is the top 3 point shooter in the NBA.

It's just crazy to be when you look at the top 15 or so offensive players in the league on that chart, its like 13 max $$$ superstar players, Haliburton and Bojan.... crazy we didn't even have to give up a 2nd rounder for him and got him for just Olynyk and Lee.

tmorgan · Post #7 » by **tmorgan** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 1:51 pm

You see SGA up there next to Jokic? That man is a monster.

bstein14 · Post #8 » by **bstein14** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 3:25 pm

tmorgan wrote:You see SGA up there next to Jokic? That man is a monster.

Yup, SGA looking like a superstar if he can stay healthy this season he should be all-nba and push the Thunder out of the tank race.

If Cade can be as good as SGA is right now, we'll have drafted really well. SGA looking like he's going to be a top 20 player for the next half decade IMO.

Manocad · Post #9 » by **Manocad** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 4:28 pm

It's not really surprising that the best unit includes Diallo when he can't shoot a jumper; every time he hits one it's a surprise. Put him around guys who can score and distribute, and it limits his shots to cleanups and cuts to the rim which he's pretty effective at.

I'm wondering if the problem with Diallo isn't mental. When he was competing with JJ he clearly distanced himself as being more consistent in turning in good performances. Now he's fallen right back into inconsistency; some games he looks like a great bench piece and some games he looks like garbage.

Drwho17 · Post #10 » by **Drwho17** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 4:59 pm

Manocad wrote:It's not really surprising that the best unit includes Diallo when he can't shoot a jumper; every time he hits one it's a surprise. Put him around guys who can score and distribute, and it limits his shots to cleanups and cuts to the rim which he's pretty effective at.

I'm wondering if the problem with Diallo isn't mental. When he was competing with JJ he clearly distanced himself as being more consistent in turning in good performances. Now he's fallen right back into inconsistency; some games he looks like a great bench piece and some games he looks like garbage.

Diallo and Hayes isn't a good combo, Diallo should be playing SG also, not SF.

Manocad · Post #11 » by **Manocad** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 5:51 pm

Drwho17 wrote:
Manocad wrote:It's not really surprising that the best unit includes Diallo when he can't shoot a jumper; every time he hits one it's a surprise. Put him around guys who can score and distribute, and it limits his shots to cleanups and cuts to the rim which he's pretty effective at.

I'm wondering if the problem with Diallo isn't mental. When he was competing with JJ he clearly distanced himself as being more consistent in turning in good performances. Now he's fallen right back into inconsistency; some games he looks like a great bench piece and some games he looks like garbage.

Diallo and Hayes isn't a good combo, Diallo should be playing SG also, not SF.

You're not going to get an argument from me on that one. And if he continues to be as inconsistent as he is he's going to fall to one small step above Killian.

Invictus88 · Post #12 » by **Invictus88** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 6:33 pm

Manocad wrote:It's not really surprising that the best unit includes Diallo when he can't shoot a jumper; every time he hits one it's a surprise. Put him around guys who can score and distribute, and it limits his shots to cleanups and cuts to the rim which he's pretty effective at.

I'm wondering if the problem with Diallo isn't mental. When he was competing with JJ he clearly distanced himself as being more consistent in turning in good performances. Now he's fallen right back into inconsistency; some games he looks like a great bench piece and some games he looks like garbage.

I'm in agreement with everything but the fact that it sounds like you are only just starting to wonder about the mental aspect

My take as it has always been a game approach problem with him. It's obvious to anyone that he has plus attributes (leap out of the gym athleticism and a good first step) and known shortcomings (outside shooting and lapses/being out of position defensively).

The path to consistency for most players is leveraging his strengths and either minimizing or removing weaknesses. So far he hasn't figured out how to shoot a jumper so his other option is to stop shooting them (mental choice). With his athleticism he has the capability to be a great defender. The fact that he isn't is a mental aspect he needs to work on as well.

Manocad · Post #13 » by **Manocad** » Fri Nov 4, 2022 8:32 pm

Invictus88 wrote:
Manocad wrote:It's not really surprising that the best unit includes Diallo when he can't shoot a jumper; every time he hits one it's a surprise. Put him around guys who can score and distribute, and it limits his shots to cleanups and cuts to the rim which he's pretty effective at.

I'm wondering if the problem with Diallo isn't mental. When he was competing with JJ he clearly distanced himself as being more consistent in turning in good performances. Now he's fallen right back into inconsistency; some games he looks like a great bench piece and some games he looks like garbage.

I'm in agreement with everything but the fact that it sounds like you are only just starting to wonder about the mental aspect

My take as it has always been a game approach problem with him. It's obvious to anyone that he has plus attributes (leap out of the gym athleticism and a good first step) and known shortcomings (outside shooting and lapses/being out of position defensively).

The path to consistency for most players is leveraging his strengths and either minimizing or removing weaknesses. So far he hasn't figured out how to shoot a jumper so his other option is to stop shooting them (mental choice). With his athleticism he has the capability to be a great defender. The fact that he isn't is a mental aspect he needs to work on as well.

Trust me, I didn't just start wondering. This is just the first time I posted it.

breezypeezy · Post #14 » by **breezypeezy** » Sat Nov 5, 2022 10:21 am

Im wanting to see some Duren Stewart Bojan Ivey Cade lineups asap.

Also Bagley Bey Livers Burkes some pretty decent bench firepower.

Kalamazoo317 · Post #15 » by **Kalamazoo317** » Sat Nov 5, 2022 2:56 pm

If I never see Diallo and Hayes on the court together at the same time again, I'll be happy. Kill should be out there with four shooters or three shooters and a big lob threat (not Haimi). Or he should be out there with our four best offensive players and just be asked to lock down on defense. His offense is just so bad and he needs to be hidden on that end.

Haimi should be out there with four shooters as well and just be more garbage man mode. They more or less should be playing the same role, with Haimi offering slightly more on offense and Kill offering slightly more as a distributor, but neither ideal as anything better than a fifth option right now, IMO.

We might honestly need to choose between Haimi or Kill as the last member of a 9 man rotation, or have them take turns with that role. Extended minutes by either, especially extended minutes on the floor together, is really hurting us right now.