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Keeper’s Moving forward

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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#41 » by Manocad » Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:04 pm

reanimator wrote:
Manocad wrote:
reanimator wrote:
You don't roster build on speculation. Can they improve as shooters? Yes. Should Weaver make moves with the idea they will improve as shooters? No.

By that logic it should then be assumed possible that no player on this roster will ever be better than what they are now. Therefore given how this team is playing, Weaver should be planning to replace every single player on this roster since they all need to improve in some way or another before this team can contend for a championship, correct?

Sure, it sounds great to have a "back up plan" for every single player on the team. But the reality is that yeah, you DO have to make some leaps of faith.


Where was it stated that no one gets better? I said you don't PLAN with the expectation that outlier development of a skill will occur. Huge difference. So no, Weaver shouldn't expect his young starting backcourt to suddenly become plus shooters and throw another one in the mix.

You're the one who said you don't PLAN on them getting better, which is the same thing as saying you'd plan for replacing them in order for the team to get better. It's not possible to have a Plan B for every single player on the roster, i.e. if Cade doesn't become the star the team needs him to be, there's another player right behind him who may be. Like I said, sounds great on paper but not possible. You do have to plan according to the assumption that your players may actually become the players you believe they'll become when you drafted them.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#42 » by reanimator » Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:48 pm

DetroitSho wrote:
What part of Cade and Ivey being passable 3 point shooters is outlier development? I'm curious.


The current data

And lets be clear. Its not "passable shooters" but PLUS shooting. One guy will need to be great offball knocking down shots off the catch.

Agree to disagree. Unless you're getting a generational talent, fit including positional glut and skill mesh are always considerations.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#43 » by reanimator » Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:59 pm

Manocad wrote:[
You're the one who said you don't PLAN on them getting better, which is the same thing as saying you'd plan for replacing them in order for the team to get better. It's not possible to have a Plan B for every single player on the roster, i.e. if Cade doesn't become the star the team needs him to be, there's another player right behind him who may be. Like I said, sounds great on paper but not possible. You do have to plan according to the assumption that your players may actually become the players you believe they'll become when you drafted them.


Plan on getting better as players? Thats a given. Assume 1 of the 2 will be a plus shooter? Yeah I wouldn't plan on that when deciding who to draft. If Cade or Ivey finish the year shooting the 3 ball strong then this can all be disregarded.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#44 » by Manocad » Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:31 am

reanimator wrote:
Manocad wrote:[
You're the one who said you don't PLAN on them getting better, which is the same thing as saying you'd plan for replacing them in order for the team to get better. It's not possible to have a Plan B for every single player on the roster, i.e. if Cade doesn't become the star the team needs him to be, there's another player right behind him who may be. Like I said, sounds great on paper but not possible. You do have to plan according to the assumption that your players may actually become the players you believe they'll become when you drafted them.


Plan on getting better as players? Thats a given. Assume 1 of the 2 will be a plus shooter? Yeah I wouldn't plan on that when deciding who to draft. If Cade or Ivey finish the year shooting the 3 ball strong then this can all be disregarded.

So basically don’t plan on them being plus shooters unless they become plus shooters. Meaning don’t plan on them not becoming plus shooters either.

In other words, wait and see what happens rather than planning or not planning on anything. Deep.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#45 » by reanimator » Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:50 am

Manocad wrote:
reanimator wrote:
Manocad wrote:[
You're the one who said you don't PLAN on them getting better, which is the same thing as saying you'd plan for replacing them in order for the team to get better. It's not possible to have a Plan B for every single player on the roster, i.e. if Cade doesn't become the star the team needs him to be, there's another player right behind him who may be. Like I said, sounds great on paper but not possible. You do have to plan according to the assumption that your players may actually become the players you believe they'll become when you drafted them.


Plan on getting better as players? Thats a given. Assume 1 of the 2 will be a plus shooter? Yeah I wouldn't plan on that when deciding who to draft. If Cade or Ivey finish the year shooting the 3 ball strong then this can all be disregarded.

So basically don’t plan on them being plus shooters unless they become plus shooters. Meaning don’t plan on them not becoming plus shooters either.

In other words, wait and see what happens rather than planning or not planning on anything. Deep.


No, I actually agree with you now.

Lets draft Amen Thompson. We should assume he will become a good 3 pt shooter.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#46 » by Manocad » Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:22 pm

reanimator wrote:
Manocad wrote:
reanimator wrote:
Plan on getting better as players? Thats a given. Assume 1 of the 2 will be a plus shooter? Yeah I wouldn't plan on that when deciding who to draft. If Cade or Ivey finish the year shooting the 3 ball strong then this can all be disregarded.

So basically don’t plan on them being plus shooters unless they become plus shooters. Meaning don’t plan on them not becoming plus shooters either.

In other words, wait and see what happens rather than planning or not planning on anything. Deep.


No, I actually agree with you now.

Lets draft Amen Thompson. We should assume he will become a good 3 pt shooter.

Sure, make the decision right now on who to draft 7 months and 67 NBA games before the draft. Makes sense.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#47 » by Natopher » Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:52 pm

My off-limits players for this team going forward are Cade and Ivey. That's it.

I have very high hopes for Durren, and am optimistic about Stewart and Bey being good role players on good teams, but they shouldn't be ruled out of trades that could bring back high-level players.

I remember back when the Rockets traded for James Harden. I thought they gave up a lot, and I remember thinking to myself something to the effect of "Gosh, I'm glad the Pistons didn't trade Monroe, Knight, [young promising player(s)], and a couple of picks for Harden. That would've been way too much!" And then Harden's first Rockets game was against us. He absolutely decimated our team by himself, and I instantly wished we could've traded anyone on our team for him
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#48 » by mattao313 » Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:37 pm

Natopher wrote:My off-limits players for this team going forward are Cade and Ivey. That's it.

I have very high hopes for Durren, and am optimistic about Stewart and Bey being good role players on good teams, but they shouldn't be ruled out of trades that could bring back high-level players.

I remember back when the Rockets traded for James Harden. I thought they gave up a lot, and I remember thinking to myself something to the effect of "Gosh, I'm glad the Pistons didn't trade Monroe, Knight, [young promising player(s)], and a couple of picks for Harden. That would've been way too much!" And then Harden's first Rockets game was against us. He absolutely decimated our team by himself, and I instantly wished we could've traded anyone on our team for him
I think everyone should be available for the right price I don't think anyone on the team has best player in the league potential. Of course we shouldn't be giving away guys for nothing either.

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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#49 » by MotownMadness » Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:24 pm

Not trading the backcourt
Cade
Ivey
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#50 » by Manocad » Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:21 am

mattao313 wrote:
Natopher wrote:My off-limits players for this team going forward are Cade and Ivey. That's it.

I have very high hopes for Durren, and am optimistic about Stewart and Bey being good role players on good teams, but they shouldn't be ruled out of trades that could bring back high-level players.

I remember back when the Rockets traded for James Harden. I thought they gave up a lot, and I remember thinking to myself something to the effect of "Gosh, I'm glad the Pistons didn't trade Monroe, Knight, [young promising player(s)], and a couple of picks for Harden. That would've been way too much!" And then Harden's first Rockets game was against us. He absolutely decimated our team by himself, and I instantly wished we could've traded anyone on our team for him
I think everyone should be available for the right price I don't think anyone on the team has best player in the league potential. Of course we shouldn't be giving away guys for nothing either.

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How many championships has Harden won?
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#51 » by mattao313 » Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:51 am

Manocad wrote:
mattao313 wrote:
Natopher wrote:My off-limits players for this team going forward are Cade and Ivey. That's it.

I have very high hopes for Durren, and am optimistic about Stewart and Bey being good role players on good teams, but they shouldn't be ruled out of trades that could bring back high-level players.

I remember back when the Rockets traded for James Harden. I thought they gave up a lot, and I remember thinking to myself something to the effect of "Gosh, I'm glad the Pistons didn't trade Monroe, Knight, [young promising player(s)], and a couple of picks for Harden. That would've been way too much!" And then Harden's first Rockets game was against us. He absolutely decimated our team by himself, and I instantly wished we could've traded anyone on our team for him
I think everyone should be available for the right price I don't think anyone on the team has best player in the league potential. Of course we shouldn't be giving away guys for nothing either.

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How many championships has Harden won?
What does that have to do with what I said?

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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#52 » by Manocad » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:12 am

mattao313 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
mattao313 wrote:I think everyone should be available for the right price I don't think anyone on the team has best player in the league potential. Of course we shouldn't be giving away guys for nothing either.

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How many championships has Harden won?
What does that have to do with what I said?

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My bad. That was an answer to Natopher.

But "best player in the league" =/= championship either. Just making that clear.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#53 » by Natopher » Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:07 am

Manocad wrote:
mattao313 wrote:
Manocad wrote:How many championships has Harden won?
What does that have to do with what I said?

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My bad. That was an answer to Natopher.

But "best player in the league" =/= championship either. Just making that clear.


All I'm saying is that people have a tendency to become attached to and overvalue their players (especially on bad teams). We should be open to trading basically anyone depending on the price. Harden not winning any championships is irrelevant to the topic here. He was just someone I chose as an example.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#54 » by Manocad » Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:28 pm

Natopher wrote:
Manocad wrote:
mattao313 wrote:What does that have to do with what I said?

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My bad. That was an answer to Natopher.

But "best player in the league" =/= championship either. Just making that clear.


All I'm saying is that people have a tendency to become attached to and overvalue their players (especially on bad teams). We should be open to trading basically anyone depending on the price. Harden not winning any championships is irrelevant to the topic here. He was just someone I chose as an example.

Harden not winning any championships is EXACTLY relevant to the topic of what a player's real value is. Especially since you've claimed that people overvalue their players and you use HIM as the example of who you wished the Pistons would have traded for?

The idea of "any player is available at the right price" doesn't create a team culture. And while some ring-chasing mercenaries have achieved some success winning championships, it's not often.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#55 » by Natopher » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:47 pm

Manocad wrote:
Natopher wrote:
Manocad wrote:My bad. That was an answer to Natopher.

But "best player in the league" =/= championship either. Just making that clear.


All I'm saying is that people have a tendency to become attached to and overvalue their players (especially on bad teams). We should be open to trading basically anyone depending on the price. Harden not winning any championships is irrelevant to the topic here. He was just someone I chose as an example.

Harden not winning any championships is EXACTLY relevant to the topic of what a player's real value is. Especially since you've claimed that people overvalue their players and you use HIM as the example of who you wished the Pistons would have traded for?

The idea of "any player is available at the right price" doesn't create a team culture. And while some ring-chasing mercenaries have achieved some success winning championships, it's not often.

How many championships have Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, and Steven Adams won? How many conference finals have they led their teams to?

Harden is an elite player in the league and has been since his first season in Houston. The Rockets with him and CP3 almost beat the Warriors in the conference finals when they had KD. I don't like the way Harden has played for several seasons now, but to imply that he was not an elite level player worth trading the house for is ridiculous. He's the main player to make the Rockets relevant after McGrady and Yao.

Plenty of amazing players never win rings. To imply that falls strictly on them as players and not the teams put around them is ridiculous.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#56 » by Manocad » Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:06 pm

Natopher wrote:
Manocad wrote:
Natopher wrote:
All I'm saying is that people have a tendency to become attached to and overvalue their players (especially on bad teams). We should be open to trading basically anyone depending on the price. Harden not winning any championships is irrelevant to the topic here. He was just someone I chose as an example.

Harden not winning any championships is EXACTLY relevant to the topic of what a player's real value is. Especially since you've claimed that people overvalue their players and you use HIM as the example of who you wished the Pistons would have traded for?

The idea of "any player is available at the right price" doesn't create a team culture. And while some ring-chasing mercenaries have achieved some success winning championships, it's not often.

How many championships have Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, and Steven Adams won? How many conference finals have they led their teams to?

Harden is an elite player in the league and has been since his first season in Houston. The Rockets with him and CP3 almost beat the Warriors in the conference finals when they had KD. I don't like the way Harden has played for several seasons now, but to imply that he was not an elite level player worth trading the house for is ridiculous. He's the main player to make the Rockets relevant after McGrady and Yao.

Plenty of amazing players never win rings. To imply that falls strictly on them as players and not the teams put around them is ridiculous.

Harden hasn't had good players around him? Is it just a coincidence that he hasn't won a championship with the defense he plays? And no, given how one-dimensional he is I personally would not have traded the house for him.
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#57 » by MotownMadness » Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:30 pm

Natopher wrote:My off-limits players for this team going forward are Cade and Ivey. That's it.

I have very high hopes for Durren, and am optimistic about Stewart and Bey being good role players on good teams, but they shouldn't be ruled out of trades that could bring back high-level players.

I remember back when the Rockets traded for James Harden. I thought they gave up a lot, and I remember thinking to myself something to the effect of "Gosh, I'm glad the Pistons didn't trade Monroe, Knight, [young promising player(s)], and a couple of picks for Harden. That would've been way too much!" And then Harden's first Rockets game was against us. He absolutely decimated our team by himself, and I instantly wished we could've traded anyone on our team for him

Yeah Rockets hit the jackpot on that trade at the time. Even OKC basically chose Ibaka over him.

I remember not wanting to make a Monroe package at the time as well :lol:
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Re: Keeper’s Moving forward 

Post#58 » by Natopher » Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:43 pm

Manocad wrote:
Natopher wrote:
Manocad wrote:Harden not winning any championships is EXACTLY relevant to the topic of what a player's real value is. Especially since you've claimed that people overvalue their players and you use HIM as the example of who you wished the Pistons would have traded for?

The idea of "any player is available at the right price" doesn't create a team culture. And while some ring-chasing mercenaries have achieved some success winning championships, it's not often.

How many championships have Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, and Steven Adams won? How many conference finals have they led their teams to?

Harden is an elite player in the league and has been since his first season in Houston. The Rockets with him and CP3 almost beat the Warriors in the conference finals when they had KD. I don't like the way Harden has played for several seasons now, but to imply that he was not an elite level player worth trading the house for is ridiculous. He's the main player to make the Rockets relevant after McGrady and Yao.

Plenty of amazing players never win rings. To imply that falls strictly on them as players and not the teams put around them is ridiculous.

Harden hasn't had good players around him? Is it just a coincidence that he hasn't won a championship with the defense he plays? And no, given how one-dimensional he is I personally would not have traded the house for him.

I never said Harden hasn't had good players around him.

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