Wiseman and Duren

[breezypeezy]

2 years of lottery level losing, why are we afraid to TRY a different approach.
I want to see Cade and Ivey out their with Wiseman, Duren and Bojan.
I think that lineup of current players has the highest ceiling.

Were the 3rd or 4th worst team in the league, what we can be certain of is we need help defending Giannis, Durant, and these handful of guys that torch us for 50. Its all hands on deck and some new hands with Wisemans wingspan, reach and athleticism has to be better the crap product weve been relying on.
Play them both early, often, together and apart.
Nothing should be off the table.

[GreekAlex]

2 years of lottery level losing, why are we afraid to TRY a different approach.
I want to see Cade and Ivey out their with Wiseman, Duren and Bojan.
I think that lineup of current players has the highest ceiling.

Were the 3rd or 4th worst team in the league, what we can be certain of is we need help defending Giannis, Durant, and these handful of guys that torch us for 50. Its all hands on deck and some new hands with Wisemans wingspan, reach and athleticism has to be better the crap product weve been relying on.
Play them both early, often, together and apart.
Nothing should be off the table.

I totally agree. Gambling on young players with high ceilings is the way to go.

[Snakebites]

Crazy out of the box thought: with teams like the Celtics, Bucks, and Cavs at the top of the east, is the concept of playing two big men together really backwards and outdated or is it possibly exactly where things are trending?

Small ball is slowly fading. Thank goodness. It was only a matter of time. The bigs will be back. But as snakebites mentioned above, if you play 2 at the same time, at least one of them has to have versatility to his game, both defensively and offensively.

Small ball was/is the result of the relative dearth of big men for a time who can switch on defense and be more offensively versatile.

It was only a matter of time before big men adapted. Aspiring NBA big men are starting to develop a different set of skills.

People talk about the return of dominant big men but the ones we have today are great because all of them (Embiid, Jokic, Giannis etc.) have skill sets traditionally associated with smaller players, either defensively or offensively or both.

There’s still a place for more traditional guys like Rudy Gobert (as long as they’re at least decent in the P/R) but even that’s starting to fade. The traditional big man is nearly extinct and I don’t see it ever coming back.

[Invictus88]

Just having size and athleticism, while being a great place to start, doesn't always equate to being a quality player.

It never did. Drummond, for example, would suck in any era.

Drummond not only has size and athleticism, but elite basketball talent in rebounding. He sucks because, at a critical juncture, he was mis-coached. That wouldn't have been inevitable. In his first year, he was on a Duren trajectory. We hired a coach principally on his ability to develop big men who taught Drummond the wrong lessons during his formative years. Drummond's limp-witted brain hasn't been able to recover.

I'm sorry. But enough is enough. At some point Drummond needs to be treated like a grown man who is responsible for his own decisions. You really can't excuse his inability to learn from repeated mistakes spanning several years. This isn't because at some point of time he didn't get the support he needed. No. There are obvious fundamental things that he refuses to do. These are conscious choices that he repeatedly decides to make.

Stop it.

[Uncle Mxy]

I'm sorry. But enough is enough. At some point Drummond needs to be treated like a grown man who is responsible for his own decisions. You really can't excuse his inability to learn from repeated mistakes spanning several years. This isn't because at some point of time he didn't get the support he needed. No. There are obvious fundamental things that he refuses to do. These are conscious choices that he repeatedly decides to make.

Stop it.

There's plenty of blame to go around.

Undisciplined, doofus players with NBA talent are still capable of not sucking if coached and used correctly -- look at Drew Gooden. Drumbo isn't someone I'd describe as "conscious" except in a medical sense. What's obvious to most anyone isn't to him. He wasn't challenged and treated like a grown man for most of his career, not while he was here. No, he was anointed and coddled as the face of the franchise, and given bad direction. Heck, he had SVG indulging him in shooting threes for a minute, couldn't even be bothered to work on his FTs until SVG was out the door. Now he's hitting 30 and, if he ever managed to really put it together, do well as a rotation player, he'll be past his prime.

What a waste. And, not a waste I want for Duren or Wiseman.

[Invictus88]

I'm sorry. But enough is enough. At some point Drummond needs to be treated like a grown man who is responsible for his own decisions. You really can't excuse his inability to learn from repeated mistakes spanning several years. This isn't because at some point of time he didn't get the support he needed. No. There are obvious fundamental things that he refuses to do. These are conscious choices that he repeatedly decides to make.

Stop it.

There's plenty of blame to go around.

Undisciplined, doofus players with NBA talent are still capable of not sucking if coached and used correctly -- look at Drew Gooden. Drumbo isn't someone I'd describe as "conscious" except in a medical sense. What's obvious to most anyone isn't to him. He wasn't challenged and treated like a grown man for most of his career, not while he was here. No, he was anointed and coddled as the face of the franchise, and given bad direction. Heck, he had SVG indulging him in shooting threes for a minute, couldn't even be bothered to work on his FTs until SVG was out the door. Now he's hitting 30 and, if he ever managed to really put it together, do well as a rotation player, he'll be past his prime.

What a waste. And, not a waste I want for Duren or Wiseman.

You understand that the freely admitted to ebowing a teammate in the side of the head who was taking his rebounds right? That's not indicative of a problem with coaching. It's indicative of someone completely aware of his situation making a concsious choice to be an idiot.

It's folks like you that enable dufuses like Drummond because you don't hold them accountable for their own actions.

[Kalamazoo317]

Drummond isn’t on this team. How’s Wiseman look so far?

[ComboGuardCity]

I’ll take it a step further and ask us to run the following:

Ivey
Cade
Victor
Duren
Wiseman

Nickname ideas welcome:

1. The trees at Ceas
2. Longest 5 alive
3. The going to space pistons
4. The Na’vi in the D

[keepitrealhomes]

I’ll take it a step further and ask us to run the following:

Ivey
Cade
Victor
Duren
Wiseman

Nickname ideas welcome:

1. The trees at Ceas
2. Longest 5 alive
3. The going to space pistons
4. The Na’vi in the D

I’ve already coined The Trees Wiseman…and every variation

[keepitrealhomes]

Drummond isn’t on this team. How’s Wiseman look so far?

Pretty spacey off the ball defensively, but impressive within 10 feet on offense. It’s gonna be a bumpy ride, but I got a plan we hit Tahiti….

[Uncle Mxy]

You understand that the freely admitted to ebowing a teammate in the side of the head who was taking his rebounds right? That's not indicative of a problem with coaching. It's indicative of someone completely aware of his situation making a concsious choice to be an idiot.

It's folks like you that enable dufuses like Drummond because you don't hold them accountable for their own actions.

That only came out after he was traded. Who was his boss at the time (did anyone ever figure that out for sure)? How does what I say on a sports board make him accountable? Does saying that proper guidance at the right juncture could've changed the verdict on him as a player count as enabling? Being the master of his fate doesn't mean he's the only factor involved with it.

Winning NBA teams aren't built on sweetness and light. There are inevitable conflicts. Some get physical. The Bad Boys fought worse than this in practice, by all accounts. But, it was behind closed doors and about winning basketball. Drumbo's statement at the time about the situation reflected just how dumb he is. "You don't see me going for 50, so don't get my rebounds." Damn, go for 50 every night Dre! Or better yet, win every game! You won't win all the time, but that's the kind of leadership alpha dog you're supposed to bring, not about empty stats.

I met teenage Drummond in 2012, talked with him for a few minutes when we flew to Vegas together. He seemed like a good kid at the time, happy he was taking care of his mom. I told him to work on his FTs. Then we anointed him as our "chosen one" more due to bad GMing than him being a a complete player. I still remember that instant turnover/hook shot/pet move his coach thought was a good idea when he couldn't make a FT. He got paid bigly, became more of an ass than asset, and eventually toxic waste.

[Invictus88]

You understand that the freely admitted to ebowing a teammate in the side of the head who was taking his rebounds right? That's not indicative of a problem with coaching. It's indicative of someone completely aware of his situation making a concsious choice to be an idiot.

It's folks like you that enable dufuses like Drummond because you don't hold them accountable for their own actions.

That only came out after he was traded. Who was his boss at the time (did anyone ever figure that out for sure)? How does what I say on a sports board make him accountable? Does saying that proper guidance at the right juncture could've changed the verdict on him as a player count as enabling? Being the master of his fate doesn't mean he's the only factor involved with it.

Winning NBA teams aren't built on sweetness and light. There are inevitable conflicts. Some get physical. The Bad Boys fought worse than this in practice, by all accounts. But, it was behind closed doors and about winning basketball. Drumbo's statement at the time about the situation reflected just how dumb he is. "You don't see me going for 50, so don't get my rebounds." Damn, go for 50 every night Dre! Or better yet, win every game! You won't win all the time, but that's the kind of leadership alpha dog you're supposed to bring, not about empty stats.

I met teenage Drummond in 2012, talked with him for a few minutes when we flew to Vegas together. He seemed like a good kid at the time, happy he was taking care of his mom. I told him to work on his FTs. Then we anointed him as our "chosen one" more due to bad GMing than him being a a complete player. I still remember that instant turnover/hook shot/pet move his coach thought was a good idea when he couldn't make a FT. He got paid bigly, became more of an ass than asset, and eventually toxic waste.

You can write paragraphs till the cows come home making excuses for him in one way, shape, or form. But the fact that through all of this that you aren't willing to admit that one iota of his situation in life is due to his own doing; that instead you blame it on everyone else is telling.

I used the phrase 'like you' when describing enablers because of all the cherished advice that you claim that this boy/man apparently lacks, the most important piece is that it is he himself who is most responsible for his own actions and the results (or lack thereof) that come of them.

It is folks like you close to him who have obviously failed to impress this upon him; instead blaming his predicament on everything and everyone else instead.

It's ironic that I'm having to explain this to you in terms of him missing a key piece of advice in order to have it make sense to you. The reality is that this premise is so basic that deep down he has known this all along.

[Uncle Mxy]

You can write paragraphs till the cows come home making excuses for him in one way, shape, or form. But the fact that through all of this that you aren't willing to admit that one iota of his situation in life is due to his own doing; that instead you blame it on everyone else is telling.

I used the phrase 'like you' when describing enablers because of all the cherished advice that you claim that this boy/man apparently lacks, the most important piece is that it is he himself who is most responsible for his own actions and the results (or lack thereof) that come of them.

It is folks like you close to him who have obviously failed to impress this upon him; instead blaming his predicament on everything and everyone else instead.

It's ironic that I'm having to explain this to you in terms of him missing a key piece of advice in order to have it make sense to you. The reality is that this premise is so basic that deep down he has known this all along.

Oh.

Wiseman and Duren... so people think both can be in the same starting lineup, as a desirable outcome? Did anyone have Bagley and Duren in their starting lineup? What's the difference?

[Kalamazoo317]

Wiseman is a more fluid athlete, better ball handler, and looks to have better shooting touch than Bagley. Their defensive IQ seems similar so far but that isn’t fixed. Wiseman’s pure size in drop coverage was a rim deterrent last game.

[Drwho17]

Wiseman is a more fluid athlete, better ball handler, and looks to have better shooting touch than Bagley. Their defensive IQ seems similar so far but that isn’t fixed. Wiseman’s pure size in drop coverage was a rim deterrent last game.

Well, I'm not sure of that, I think you are under rating Bagley's athleticism, Bagley is probably better offensively at this time then Wiseman too. Wiseman is just bigger and younger, if the Pistons didn't already have Bagley, I think most people would be more enthused about the trade and Wiseman in general.

[zeebneeb]

Wiseman is a more fluid athlete, better ball handler, and looks to have better shooting touch than Bagley. Their defensive IQ seems similar so far but that isn’t fixed. Wiseman’s pure size in drop coverage was a rim deterrent last game.

Well, I'm not sure of that, I think you are under rating Bagley's athleticism, Bagley is probably better offensively at this time then Wiseman too. Wiseman is just bigger and younger, if the Pistons didn't already have Bagley, I think most people would be more enthused about the trade and Wiseman in general.

This is the absolute truth of it.

[Kalamazoo317]

Wiseman is a more fluid athlete, better ball handler, and looks to have better shooting touch than Bagley. Their defensive IQ seems similar so far but that isn’t fixed. Wiseman’s pure size in drop coverage was a rim deterrent last game.

Well, I'm not sure of that, I think you are under rating Bagley's athleticism, Bagley is probably better offensively at this time then Wiseman too. Wiseman is just bigger and younger, if the Pistons didn't already have Bagley, I think most people would be more enthused about the trade and Wiseman in general.

I’ve not seen enough of Wiseman yet to confidently say one is better offensively. They’re just different. I think Wiseman is longer, has a bit more range, and is quicker. I’d take him over Bagley in transition. Bagley has better hands, is stronger, and has better post moves. He also seems to have better rebounding instincts.