Vets vs another prospect

[Billl]

Besides our top pick, i don't think we are really in a position to add any more "prospects" without getting rid of any of the current "prospects". We need some guys who can actually play right now to help develop the good, young players we have. We can't just keep adding fringe rotation players just because they are still young.

To further cement what your saying;

Marvin Bagley-#2 overall pick
James Wiseman-#2 overall pick
Cade Cunningham-#1 overall pick
Killian Hayes-#7 overall pick
Jaden Ivey-#5 overall pick
Incoming-Top 5 pick

The Pistons will be able to put an entire starting 5 on the floor, that consists of all top 5 picks, and have the #7 pick come off the bench.

You can only run so many prospects, without having a respected vet on the floor to lead them.

To further the point;

A lottery pick is considered top 14.

Jalen Duren-#13 overall pick.

So the Pistons have 6 lottery picks all playing significant minutes, with another one being drafted this year, so a total of 7 lottery picks getting significant time.

I think we are all hoping Cade takes a massive leap this year, and steps up as a leader, or a big time free agent vet is brought in to lead on the floor.

No more prospects!

I wasn't saying we couldn't add young players. My point was that we shouldn't be adding any young players that currently can't actually play decent basketball. Ivey, Cade, Duren, stew and hopefully our pick are ready to contribute. They will still make mistakes, but they earn minutes. Wiseman, Bagley and Hayes are guys you are just hoping develop - ie "prospects". They are being gifted minutes. We don't have any more minutes to give to guys like that.

[zeebneeb]

Besides our top pick, i don't think we are really in a position to add any more "prospects" without getting rid of any of the current "prospects". We need some guys who can actually play right now to help develop the good, young players we have. We can't just keep adding fringe rotation players just because they are still young.

To further cement what your saying;

Marvin Bagley-#2 overall pick
James Wiseman-#2 overall pick
Cade Cunningham-#1 overall pick
Killian Hayes-#7 overall pick
Jaden Ivey-#5 overall pick
Incoming-Top 5 pick

The Pistons will be able to put an entire starting 5 on the floor, that consists of all top 5 picks, and have the #7 pick come off the bench.

You can only run so many prospects, without having a respected vet on the floor to lead them.

To further the point;

A lottery pick is considered top 14.

Jalen Duren-#13 overall pick.

So the Pistons have 6 lottery picks all playing significant minutes, with another one being drafted this year, so a total of 7 lottery picks getting significant time.

I think we are all hoping Cade takes a massive leap this year, and steps up as a leader, or a big time free agent vet is brought in to lead on the floor.

No more prospects!

I wasn't saying we couldn't add young players. My point was that we shouldn't be adding any young players that currently can't actually play decent basketball. Ivey, Cade, Duren, stew and hopefully our pick are ready to contribute. They will still make mistakes, but they earn minutes. Wiseman, Bagley and Hayes are guys you are just hoping develop - ie "prospects". They are being gifted minutes. We don't have any more minutes to give to guys like that.

Absolutely agreed.

May 16th is rapidly approaching, so that piece of the puzzle will finally be solved, and then looking at who gmfits with the new group will be essential.

[Spider156]

To further cement what your saying;

Marvin Bagley-#2 overall pick
James Wiseman-#2 overall pick
Cade Cunningham-#1 overall pick
Killian Hayes-#7 overall pick
Jaden Ivey-#5 overall pick
Incoming-Top 5 pick

The Pistons will be able to put an entire starting 5 on the floor, that consists of all top 5 picks, and have the #7 pick come off the bench.

You can only run so many prospects, without having a respected vet on the floor to lead them.

To further the point;

A lottery pick is considered top 14.

Jalen Duren-#13 overall pick.

So the Pistons have 6 lottery picks all playing significant minutes, with another one being drafted this year, so a total of 7 lottery picks getting significant time.

I think we are all hoping Cade takes a massive leap this year, and steps up as a leader, or a big time free agent vet is brought in to lead on the floor.

No more prospects!

I wasn't saying we couldn't add young players. My point was that we shouldn't be adding any young players that currently can't actually play decent basketball. Ivey, Cade, Duren, stew and hopefully our pick are ready to contribute. They will still make mistakes, but they earn minutes. Wiseman, Bagley and Hayes are guys you are just hoping develop - ie "prospects". They are being gifted minutes. We don't have any more minutes to give to guys like that.

Absolutely agreed.

May 16th is rapidly approaching, so that piece of the puzzle will finally be solved, and then looking at who gmfits with the new group will be essential.

Big puzzle because coaching hire gets solved too. Big decisions are being made by Weaver right now.

[zeebneeb]

I wasn't saying we couldn't add young players. My point was that we shouldn't be adding any young players that currently can't actually play decent basketball. Ivey, Cade, Duren, stew and hopefully our pick are ready to contribute. They will still make mistakes, but they earn minutes. Wiseman, Bagley and Hayes are guys you are just hoping develop - ie "prospects". They are being gifted minutes. We don't have any more minutes to give to guys like that.

Absolutely agreed.

May 16th is rapidly approaching, so that piece of the puzzle will finally be solved, and then looking at who gmfits with the new group will be essential.

Big puzzle because coaching hire gets solved too. Big decisions are being made by Weaver right now.

Its crazy, because those two things, are going to determine the next 3 years at least for the Pistons.

Hope they are good choices, because damn us fans deserve a decent product after the last 14 years.

[Manocad]

So your point is that every player puts in 100% effort and just wasn’t good. Then we disagree.

I literally just said otherwise.

The assumption that the players are totally unaware of the tank and that it doesn’t affect their play is outlandish to me.

These are professional basketball players being paid a lot of money to do the best they can. Some might try less hard on a tanking team, but that is not common in practice. It's especially uncommon where young players who are trying to establish themselves in the league (and earn their next contract) are concerned, but it's very much uncommon in general given that these are players who are highly competitive, want to excel, and want to get paid.

Beyond that, your argument is extremely reductionist. It posits that because some (as yet unnamed) players might try less hard when their team is tanking, it must be the case that all players are susceptible to doing so. In fact, those who are clearly phoning it in are as obvious as they are unusual. The NBA is a very fast and extremely talented league, and the impact of even a small degree of laziness on defense makes that laziness very apparent.

And beyond that, what's your argument in this specific case? That Ivey and Bagley appeared to be playing hard on defense yet were somehow not actually playing hard? More, that they were deliberately inventing mistakes for themselves?

And how is one to account for Ivey's struggles on defense at Purdue and Bagley's dreadful defense at Duke and in Sacramento? Were they all tanking too? No. Ivey just struggled on defense at Purdue, and Bagley was simply awful on defense at Duke and in Sacramento. And both of them have struggled on defense in Detroit as well. In Ivey's case, improvement is still very much a possibility. Bagley may very well be hopeless.

Your whole argument is based on your personal assertion that Ivey and Bagley were playing as hard as they could on defense, and you have no way whatsoever to know that.

[Crymson]

Your whole argument is based on your personal assertion that Ivey and Bagley were playing as hard as they could on defense, and you have no way whatsoever to know that.

Your whole argument is based upon your personal assertion that players routinely less hard if their team is tanking, and it ignores the histories (in Bagley's case, the extensive history) of those players and the empirical evidence.

Most importantly, given that their struggles on defense were due to regular errors in decision-making rather than lack of hustle, it also implies that they in fact routinely went out of their way to deliberately make wrong decisions on defense because the team was tanking. Do you believe they were simply being that passive-aggressive?

[Manocad]

Your whole argument is based on your personal assertion that Ivey and Bagley were playing as hard as they could on defense, and you have no way whatsoever to know that.

Your whole argument is based upon your personal assertion that players routinely less hard if their team is tanking, and it ignores the histories (in Bagley's case, the extensive history) of those players and the empirical evidence.

Most importantly, given that their struggles on defense were due to regular errors in decision-making rather than lack of hustle, it also implies that they in fact routinely went out of their way to deliberately make wrong decisions on defense because the team was tanking. Do you believe they were simply being that passive-aggressive?

Wrong. I posited that it was possible that bad defense was due in part to a lack of effort based on knowing the tank was in effect. You're the only one making statements of fact.

[Crymson]

Wrong. I posited that it was possible that bad defense was due in part to a lack of effort based on knowing the tank was in effect. You're the only one making statements of fact.

They both seemed to be hustling as much as almost everyone on the team. They just made a lot of bad decisions on a regular basis, Bagley (as always) in particular. For all Marvin's defense has been terrible, he works hard and does a decent job keeping with guys on a one-on-one basis. He's just absolutely hopeless in his ability to make the right decisions. There's more hope for Ivey.

[tmorgan]

Back to the original question, what I’d do based on where we pick:

#1 — Obvious. Take Wemby. I’d still do my job and take calls, but it would take something truly spectacular to even consider it. Remember the business side, too — Wemby gets us hordes of French fans, a lot more national TV exposure, and massive merch sales.

#2 — Don’t be blatant about it, but shop the pick HARD. Scoot has to be taken here. Miller is not Durant, and while I’m sure he could be an All-Star some day, Scoot is more. He has flaws, of course, but the mindset, skills and athleticism of an elite point guard is there. If you have reason to not believe in Cade, shop him, too, though I still believe in his future as a star, bottom-half of the Top 10 player. Target Orlando and Houston, extract a massive price, trade down.

#3 — Also shop the pick, but not with as much urgency. I like Miller, he fits well, but I don’t love him. If someone is willing to pony up a big package, consider it. We do already have three guys with essentially one year of experience to groom, we don’t have to add a top 5 rookie if the value is there.

#4, #5 — Consider Whitmore, Hendricks, Wallace, or trading out for a pick that could net one of them or a Thompson twin, Dick, Hawkins, or Walker, plus additional assets. I don’t love anyone in this draft after the clear top two. Be smart, evaluate your options, consider adding future draft picks in a trade down.

I assume we’ll pick at 31, and I don’t see a need for any more than two rookies. Invest in at least one above average young vet (Cam, GrantW, BruceB, etc.) that can log minutes at the 4 or (preferably) 3. Try to get out of Bagley’s contract without embarrassing yourself at the cost. Consider moving Bojan if you draft a wing and sign another. That’s about it. Oh, and get these bums off the end of the roster and replace them with guys you might actually want to play some day.

[Crymson]

You'd need a big-bucks non-rookie contract or two to meet the $111 million minimum cap. If Weaver is really shrewd, he'd pay me that. I'd promise not to wreck team chemistry by showing up.

I get that you're joking, but I think it's worth noting that there is no mandatory salary floor in the NBA as there is in the NHL. If teams fall below the floor, then the difference between team salary load and the floor is distributed amongst the players on the team.

[Spider156]

Absolutely agreed.

May 16th is rapidly approaching, so that piece of the puzzle will finally be solved, and then looking at who gmfits with the new group will be essential.

Big puzzle because coaching hire gets solved too. Big decisions are being made by Weaver right now.

Its crazy, because those two things, are going to determine the next 3 years at least for the Pistons.

Hope they are good choices, because damn us fans deserve a decent product after the last 14 years.

I believe we had a chance to be good. We weren’t far off but Jennings got injured and Reggie too. They were good players. Honestly we were one good draft away from competing meaningfully in my opinion and I think we all know who we’ve missed out on like Mitchell or Booker. Happens. Now I like where we are it’s better to be at the bottom because I appreciate the talent we’re getting. We have one more chance on a generational player maybe three. I like it down here haha because worst that can happen is we get another chance at a top 3 pick the year after. Not a bad place to be to be honest just sucks with all the losing but we’re getting a ton of talent and I welcome it with open arms.I get it though we need to win and honestly it’s really up to Cade and Ivey because it starts with them.

[Uncle Mxy]

You'd need a big-bucks non-rookie contract or two to meet the $111 million minimum cap. If Weaver is really shrewd, he'd pay me that. I'd promise not to wreck team chemistry by showing up.

I get that you're joking, but I think it's worth noting that there is no mandatory salary floor in the NBA as there is in the NHL. If teams fall below the floor, then the difference between team salary load and the floor is distributed amongst the players on the team.

Like I said, Weaver would have to be really shrewd to pay me big $. And seriously, yeah I know.
The alternative is that he could blow it on Dillon "LeBitch" Brooks.