ESPN offseason Power Rankings = Pistons Dead Last 30th place.

[Mr Peanut]

What happened with SVG was. He built the foundation, and it was a good one.

Drummond
Mook
Tobias
KCP
Reggie

That was a young playoffs team, with upside.

After that, SVG was pressured to win, and he **** up.

That is revisionist history. The failure of that core had absolutely nothing to do with him being pressured to win. That directive wasn't new. The roster failed because it failed.

That was a young playoff team with second-round upside at best, and that assumed everything cut right. Everything didn't cut right. It wasn't a strong lineup.

That starting lineup consisted of:

• A highly flawed big in Drummond who regressed hard the season after that first playoff appearance
• An egotist in Jackson (prior to his injuries, which humbled him but lessened him substantially as a player) who would never have accepted being anything but the primary option at the time yet wasn't good enough to be the primary option for a good team (SVG ran the offense around him anyway, even when he was hobbled the season after that playoff apperance and was arguably the worst starter in the NBA)
• An unreliable shooter in KCP who wouldn't get it together until two years after he left Detroit (he was offered a big contract by SVG that he didn't deserve; fortunately for the Pistons, he got greedy and turned it down)
• A talented scorer but probable #2b option on a contender in Tobias whom SVG constantly marginalized on the court
• And a role player in Morris who had one good season with the Pistons before becoming an inefficient chucker in the next one

These players were presided over by an awful coach who wasn't fit to coach in the modern NBA, and, to boot, was the guy who had put the roster together in the first place and yet could not coach it properly.

And thanks to Stan's awful drafting and bad use of cap space, depth was at a premium. Ish Smith was the best player on the bench. That's a bad situation. Upside was at a premium also, because his ineptitude in the draft meant that there was no high-upside youth on the roster.

The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Look at 2016-2017; it disproves your claim.

Ive said it before, but for all his major faults ... Vun Gundy/Bowers turned over a trash 30 win roster featuring Moose, Josh Smith, Jennings,..... into Reggie (DJ Augustin + Singler), Tobias (Ersan + Jennings with repaired achillied), Morris & Bullock (2nd round picks) in 12 months = 44 wins

Yes, they did that. But it required them to get comically lucky on the trade front.

Phoenix's inept and soon-to-be-fired GM dumped Morris and Bullock to the Pistons to clear space for him to chase LaMarcus Aldridge, who was nowhere near good enough to be the primary option for a good team (he was also somehow too oblivious to understand that he'd terminally alienate Markieff, who was still the better player of the twins at the time, in the process).

Orlando's incompetent and soon-to-be-fired GM made the utterly flabbergasting decision to dump a promising young player in Tobias (who was on a bargain contract to boot) for expiring contracts to pave the way for Gordon to enter the starting lineup, rather than making the plainly logical move of trading Tobias for actual value.

And Jackson publicly forced his way out of OKC in horribly unprofessional fashion and made it clear that he wouldn't re-sign with any team that didn't make him the primary option on offense, thus nuking his trade value; SVG was fool enough to promise him that, and Reggie would soon demonstrate the truth of "if they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat on you" -- his ego was a substantial issue in his first two seasons, and that wouldn't change until he was humbled by the very same injuries that significantly reduced his capacity as a player.

Needless to say, the roster didn't have a high ceiling in the first place and regressed hard the next season.

Well put and largely fits with how I remember the events of the 2010s. The 2016/17 season's shortcomings from memory were largely driven by Reggie Jackson being injured. For all his flaws, he had been such a big factor for us making the playoffs the year prior and missed the first 20 or so games, and Ish Smith clearly wasn't up to the task as a starting PG. Then he was never the same when he returned and we ended up with 7 less wins and out of the playoffs.

[Crymson]

Well put and largely fits with how I remember the events of the 2010s. The 2016/17 season's shortcomings from memory were largely driven by Reggie Jackson being injured.

It was quite a bit more than that. Jackson was not only hobbled, arguably the worst starter in the NBA, and a disaster for the Pistons when he was on the floor, but SVG nonetheless used him as the starting point guard and the center of the offense for 50 games. By the time SVG pivoted away from him, it was too late. Drummond hard regressed, a state of affairs which was not helped by his decision to check out for good halfway through the season. Morris devolved into one of the league's least efficient chuckers. KCP was himself one of the worst starters in the NBA during the second half of the season, and, too, was one of the league's least efficient volume shooters. Tobias was the only starter from the previous season who improved and the only one who played well. He was exiled to the bench in December by SVG in favor of Jackson and replaced by Leuer, who had been a solid bench player and became a terrible starter. The resultant starting lineup remains one of the NBA's least efficient big-minute lineups by TS% of the past decade. It was a complete mess. SVG resolutely stuck with it anyway, to the severe detriment of the team's fortunes.

For all his flaws, he had been such a big factor for us making the playoffs the year prior and missed the first 20 or so games, and Ish Smith clearly wasn't up to the task as a starting PG.

The Pistons finished that span 11-10 and, after a slow start, were on a roll by the time Jackson returned. SVG promptly wrecked this and upset the locker room upon Jackson's, discarding an effective offense for no reason by immediately reverting to the previous season's offense and playing everything around Jackson. The Pistons had been 6-2 over their previous eight before Jackson returned to playing big minutes. They went on a 2-9 swing thereafter, and anger in the locker room over Jackson's selfish play ultimately led to a players-only meeting. Jackson spent much of the next game refusing to shoot and hanging out in the corner. SVG, who was wont to treat Jackson and Drummond like kings, enable all of their worst tendencies and never hold them accountable for anything, backed Jackson up.

It became clear not long thereafter that Jackson and Tobias were not working well together in the starting lineup. The notion of playing Jackson and the offense differently apparently did not occur to Stan, so he had two options as to whom to move to the bench: his best and most reliable scorer (indeed, the best scorer on the team since he'd arrived the previous February), or the horrendously underperforming point guard who was severely hindering the team's performance on both ends. For Stan, the choice was clear: so long, Tobias!

Ish was actually playing fairly well as starting point guard; the spacing era hadn't quite caught up to him at that point. He certainly outperformed Jackson that season by a huge margin. He remained on the bench for 50 games anyway while Jackson undermined the team on offense and defense both. He and Tobias were the best players on the team that season. SVG left them both on the bench for the most of it.

Then he was never the same when he returned and we ended up with 7 less wins and out of the playoffs.

The Pistons didn't need to miss the playoffs that year. The East was at its weakest. Unfortunately for them, it was the season in which SVG devolved from below-average as a coach to absolutely terrible. His refusal to deviate from the system he wanted to make work versus what he actually had to work with, his hardheaded insistence upon making no changes when things were absolutely not working out, his refusal to coach his veterans and hold them accountable, and his general maladroitness in rotations and on-court coaching all combined to make him an utter catastrophe for the Pistons that season. Most of his starters were bad, but SVG played his part in that as well. He coached the Pistons out of the playoff race that season.

[Billl]

Hopefully weaver is paying attention, because that is the devils deal of signing young guys based on potential. Both Reggie and Dre showed flashes of being able to dominate games. If they continued to develop in that direction, they would have been all stars locked in on fairly reasonable deals. We all know they didn't though. They never committed on defense. Instead of working on their offensive efficiency, they both just wanted more touches and shots.

Weaver is going to need to make a lot of calls on guys hitting the end of their rookie deals. It's looking like he blew the first on in Bagley. Sure you can say "If bagley just put in effort on D and worked on that jumper a bit, he could be an impact player. Maybe Monte can get that out of him". But he hasn't shown any real progress in those areas in 5 years. We'll see how his decision on Bey works out. He was another one that had the physical tools to defend but just didn't put them to use.

[Crymson]

Both Reggie and Dre showed flashes of being able to dominate games. If they continued to develop in that direction, they would have been all stars locked in on fairly reasonable deals. We all know they didn't though. They never committed on defense. Instead of working on their offensive efficiency, they both just wanted more touches and shots.

That wasn't the issue, and Jackson was already 25 when he arrived on the roster. Reggie, though he had a pretty good 2015-2016 season, was not good enough to be the primary option for a successful team yet was an self-centered egomaniac who jealously guarded his status as that primary option (an attitude in which he was 100% enabled by his dunce of a coach). It was injuries that wrecked his effectiveness, though the injuries also matured him as an individual and as a teammate. That said, effort on defense was never an issue. He was a somewhat low-IQ defender with the Pistons, but he was able to make up for it with wingspan and hard work (aside from in that awful 2016-2017 season in which he was too hobbled to do so).

Drummond was the subject of major concerns about his work ethic, maturity, motor, and offensive rawness when he was drafted. All of those concerns wound up to be spot-on; he had a terrible mentality and has invariably been a bad scorer on a season-by-season basis in the NBA (a combination of that bad mentality and his generally poor touch as a scorer around the rim).

Weaver places a high emphasis upon character, so the likes of Jackson and Drummond will never make it onto his rosters.

Weaver is going to need to make a lot of calls on guys hitting the end of their rookie deals. It's looking like he blew the first on in Bagley. Sure you can say "If bagley just put in effort on D and worked on that jumper a bit, he could be an impact player. Maybe Monte can get that out of him". But he hasn't shown any real progress in those areas in 5 years. We'll see how his decision on Bey works out. He was another one that had the physical tools to defend but just didn't put them to use.

Bagley was a low-cost flyer. He hasn't worked out. He works hard on defense; he's just awful at decision-making on that end, and I don't think that's likely to change. He's incomplete on offense as well without that jumper, but even developing that would still leave him unplayable in the postseason (and even of questionable value in the regular season) because he'd be constantly targeted.

Bey was a serviceable defender in his first two seasons before taking a major dump on defense last season for no apparent reason. The only explanation of which I can conceive, and this is because of the talk after the trade about his attitude, is that he simply stopped trying as hard. He seems to have been an unfortunate case of an ostensibly high-character and team-first guy who devolved in both capacities after seeing some success in the NBA.

[joedumars1]

If I remember correctly svg wanted and had a deal to move Dre but Gores didn’t let it happen, think he did same with dumars on moves. Seems he might’ve done it again on the Monty hire can’t remember details, but weaver wanted someone and hired someone else. Monty has the players I believe if cade stays healthy

That's not a accurate telling of the Monty hire at all!


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I have to look, but it was either who we drafted (I’m very excited we got ausar, was a little skeptical, but everything seems to translate and love the motor) that gores and weaver disagreed on or the coach. Maybe that was when we thought monty was out of the picture tho.
I can’t remember

[Pharaoh]

If I remember correctly svg wanted and had a deal to move Dre but Gores didn’t let it happen, think he did same with dumars on moves. Seems he might’ve done it again on the Monty hire can’t remember details, but weaver wanted someone and hired someone else. Monty has the players I believe if cade stays healthy

That's not a accurate telling of the Monty hire at all!


Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM mobile app

I have to look, but it was either who we drafted (I’m very excited we got ausar, was a little skeptical, but everything seems to translate and love the motor) that gores and weaver disagreed on or the coach. Maybe that was when we thought monty was out of the picture tho.
I can’t remember

From memory:

Weaver called Monty, was informed of the Medical situation involving Monty's wife so moved on to other candidates.

At some point Gores gets involved meeting the candidates and hears of the Monty situation. So Gores went above and beyond to secure the better option.

They didn't disagree on Monty - it was the timing of the situation

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