Jalen Duren & Cade Cunningham named to USA Select team.

[zeebneeb]

I think some people would be better served not using definitive language, and instead use terms conducive to a discussion.

Using words like, "never" "period" or implying that, is the opposite of what happens on a discussion board.

Rigid in your positions concerning a 22 year old player, is a recipe for disaster.

When the facts are cristal clear, there is no room for discussion. Stewart is not a good shooter. There is no argument to be made otherwise. I am not the only one saying that.

Man, I don't know what to tell you, but being this rigid, on a discussion board is not exactly conducive to said discussion.

I can, and will tell you, that there is a possibility that Stewart never becomes a 36%+ shooter from the three-point line. I accept that, because it is a possibility. I can also state that Stewart can become a 38% three-point shooter, because it could happen.

There are no "facts" in this discussion, it is all opinion based, mixed with statistics, cherry picked for arguments sake. There is always room for discussion.

What happens if Stewart, next year shoots 36% from three? (League average last year was .361%)

Will you just not speak of it again, as there is no room for discussion?

You have to give, and take in a discussion, and accept the possibility that a player, at the age of 22, can improve. Some are less likely then others to do so, but 22 and over used to be the average age of draft picks, as recent as 1994! Did none of them ever get better?

Nothing about Stewarts abilities as an NBA player are crystal clear.

[vege]

I think some people would be better served not using definitive language, and instead use terms conducive to a discussion.

Using words like, "never" "period" or implying that, is the opposite of what happens on a discussion board.

Rigid in your positions concerning a 22 year old player, is a recipe for disaster.

When the facts are cristal clear, there is no room for discussion. Stewart is not a good shooter. There is no argument to be made otherwise. I am not the only one saying that.

Man, I don't know what to tell you, but being this rigid, on a discussion board is not exactly conducive to said discussion.

I can, and will tell you, that there is a possibility that Stewart never becomes a 36%+ shooter from the three-point line. I accept that, because it is a possibility. I can also state that Stewart can become a 38% three-point shooter, because it could happen.

There are no "facts" in this discussion, it is all opinion based, mixed with statistics, cherry picked for arguments sake. There is always room for discussion.

What happens if Stewart, next year shoots 36% from three? (League average last year was .361%)

Will you just not speak of it again, as there is no room for discussion?

You have to give, and take in a discussion, and accept the possibility that a player, at the age of 22, can improve. Some are less likely then others to do so, but 22 and over used to be the average age of draft picks, as recent as 1994! Did none of them ever get better?

Nothing about Stewarts abilities as an NBA player are crystal clear.

You are twisting what I am saying.

This Stewart "discussion" started with me saying he is an inept offensive player, and a few guys are saying he is a good 3 point shooter. Even posting misleading stats and saying he was a 38%+ 3 point shooter and his efficiency dropped because of his injury. That is false. Stewart had a hot stretch, and then he went back to who he is, a 32% 3 point shooter.

He improved this season. He maintained his efficiency in a higher volume. But some people are living in lala land and pretending he IS a good shooter and he is not. The fact that he is not a good shooter is not debateable.

Do you want to debate that he will be an average shooter next season? Sure, we can argue about that. But that's not what is happening here in this thread right now. It's a different argument.

FWIW JEIII is as big of a homer for Stewart as anyone else, and he believe maybe with a lot of hard work he could be a 34-35% next season, and honestly, imo, he is only saying that because he love Stewart as a person, and some of his traits, not because he actually think Stewart is capable of even being an average shooter.

Another fact, which is relevant to what I said (him being an inept offensive player) is the fact that he is being completely ignored by his defender on offense. His 3 point shots were wide open, and we ran a ton of plays for him to get open from 3, so we are forcing him to be something he is not.

You say I am too rigid, in fact, I am not, if you show me a good argument I can change my opinion.

Ivey improved during the season. He had an awful start from 3 and by the end of the season he was shooting 37% from 3. I say Ivey need to improve a lot of things, I never said he need to improve his 3 point shot. I always said he will be fine on offense. I can see Ivey developing on offense. Not Stewart.

If you show me a fact that make me see that Stewart will be a good 3 point shooter, sure. But so far, all people posted in here are wishful thinking, and misleading stats to promote their narrative.

I mean, come on, Invictus posted an accurate split of Stewart 3 point shooting during the season, and he made a case that Stewart was going back to his normal self (32% 3 point shooter) prior to the injury. And then the guy posted a more generic split, trying to make a case that Stewart numbers decayed after his injury. There is no discussion there. Stewart numbers didn't drop because of his injury, they adjusted to who he is and it started happening before his injury, and continued after he was recovered from his injury.

And that's only the tip of the iceberg. A PF (IMO) need to do more than hit 3's and help space the floor. Stewart do not have the skillset to play PF for more than 5 mins per game off the bench. Livers does. Compare Livers game to Stewart's game. Stewart is the superior player, but Livers is a SF/PF while Stew is an energy big off the bench and the fact that he is inept offensivelly will allow his defender to ignore him and make Cade's life harder.

Do you want to have a discussion about the fact that Stewart starting at PF will make Cade's life harder? Do you disagree with that? Sure, let's talk about it, because that's my opinion. But there is no room to discuss if Stewart IS a good Shooter or not. Because he is not, and that's not debateable at all.

[tmorgan]

Overall, Stewart has been a below average three point shooter… so far. That is a fact and we agree on that. 32-33% is not good enough to be a volume stretch four in the long term. True.

But that’s not what you’ve limited yourself to saying, vege.

[Pharaoh]

It's way too soon to be making any final judgements on our young guys.

No 22 year old (or younger) NBA player is a final product. The fact that even Hayes can have some insane moments is proof of that.

We need to see to see our guys healthy and performing consistently to really know what we have here.



Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM mobile app

[Cowology]

Ima just be a big ol' homer and say I BELIEVE in Stew. Yup. I don't care what his averages are. Gasp!

He's had some very good stretches and from a development standpoint I think he's still relatively early in his arc. This guy will continue to put in the work and will keep getting better.

Am I aware of his 3pt%? Yup. And I still think he's going to be in that 36-38% range. It's just about being healthy and developing some consistency.

He's our starting PF of the future. Learn to love it.

[Pharaoh]

Ima just be a big ol' homer and say I BELIEVE in Stew. Yup. I don't care what his averages are. Gasp!

He's had some very good stretches and from a development standpoint I think he's still relatively early in his arc. This guy will continue to put in the work and will keep getting better.

Am I aware of his 3pt%? Yup. And I still think he's going to be in that 36-38% range. It's just about being healthy and developing some consistency.

He's our starting PF of the future. Learn to love it.

Most likely he is and most likely your take upsets many here who have their own narrative.

Dude is young - locked in now. We'll see how that goes but at worst he would be a rotational player on a good team.

It's up to others to live up to their expectations if we become a good team over the next 2 years.

Cade, Ivey, Duren, Ausar will determine what we become. Stewart fits any quality team you wanna name and he's still aa pup

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[vege]

Overall, Stewart has been a below average three point shooter… so far. That is a fact and we agree on that. 32-33% is not good enough to be a volume stretch four in the long term. True.

But that’s not what you’ve limited yourself to saying, vege.

No, I said in the post above yours that he is an inept offensive player and I do not believe he will ever be a decent offensive player, I never denied it. I also said he is not and will never be a PF. He is an energy guy off the bench who should play 90% of his minutes as a center.

But the discussion have been about Stewart being a good 3 point shooter and there is no discussion to be had in that regard.

[vege]

He's our starting PF of the future. Learn to love it.

He does not have the skillset to be it, and he is not being paid accordingly to that role. He is our 1st big off the bench of the future. We still need to add our starting PF of the future.

For now Bojan will have to do once Ausar is ready to start, which might still be one season away or 2.

[Mr Peanut]

When the facts are cristal clear, there is no room for discussion. Stewart is not a good shooter. There is no argument to be made otherwise. I am not the only one saying that.

Man, I don't know what to tell you, but being this rigid, on a discussion board is not exactly conducive to said discussion.

I can, and will tell you, that there is a possibility that Stewart never becomes a 36%+ shooter from the three-point line. I accept that, because it is a possibility. I can also state that Stewart can become a 38% three-point shooter, because it could happen.

There are no "facts" in this discussion, it is all opinion based, mixed with statistics, cherry picked for arguments sake. There is always room for discussion.

What happens if Stewart, next year shoots 36% from three? (League average last year was .361%)

Will you just not speak of it again, as there is no room for discussion?

You have to give, and take in a discussion, and accept the possibility that a player, at the age of 22, can improve. Some are less likely then others to do so, but 22 and over used to be the average age of draft picks, as recent as 1994! Did none of them ever get better?

Nothing about Stewarts abilities as an NBA player are crystal clear.

You are twisting what I am saying.

This Stewart "discussion" started with me saying he is an inept offensive player, and a few guys are saying he is a good 3 point shooter. Even posting misleading stats and saying he was a 38%+ 3 point shooter and his efficiency dropped because of his injury. That is false. Stewart had a hot stretch, and then he went back to who he is, a 32% 3 point shooter.

He improved this season. He maintained his efficiency in a higher volume. But some people are living in lala land and pretending he IS a good shooter and he is not. The fact that he is not a good shooter is not debateable.

Do you want to debate that he will be an average shooter next season? Sure, we can argue about that. But that's not what is happening here in this thread right now. It's a different argument.

FWIW JEIII is as big of a homer for Stewart as anyone else, and he believe maybe with a lot of hard work he could be a 34-35% next season, and honestly, imo, he is only saying that because he love Stewart as a person, and some of his traits, not because he actually think Stewart is capable of even being an average shooter.

Another fact, which is relevant to what I said (him being an inept offensive player) is the fact that he is being completely ignored by his defender on offense. His 3 point shots were wide open, and we ran a ton of plays for him to get open from 3, so we are forcing him to be something he is not.

You say I am too rigid, in fact, I am not, if you show me a good argument I can change my opinion.

Ivey improved during the season. He had an awful start from 3 and by the end of the season he was shooting 37% from 3. I say Ivey need to improve a lot of things, I never said he need to improve his 3 point shot. I always said he will be fine on offense. I can see Ivey developing on offense. Not Stewart.

If you show me a fact that make me see that Stewart will be a good 3 point shooter, sure. But so far, all people posted in here are wishful thinking, and misleading stats to promote their narrative.

I mean, come on, Invictus posted an accurate split of Stewart 3 point shooting during the season, and he made a case that Stewart was going back to his normal self (32% 3 point shooter) prior to the injury. And then the guy posted a more generic split, trying to make a case that Stewart numbers decayed after his injury. There is no discussion there. Stewart numbers didn't drop because of his injury, they adjusted to who he is and it started happening before his injury, and continued after he was recovered from his injury.

And that's only the tip of the iceberg. A PF (IMO) need to do more than hit 3's and help space the floor. Stewart do not have the skillset to play PF for more than 5 mins per game off the bench. Livers does. Compare Livers game to Stewart's game. Stewart is the superior player, but Livers is a SF/PF while Stew is an energy big off the bench and the fact that he is inept offensivelly will allow his defender to ignore him and make Cade's life harder.

Do you want to have a discussion about the fact that Stewart starting at PF will make Cade's life harder? Do you disagree with that? Sure, let's talk about it, because that's my opinion. But there is no room to discuss if Stewart IS a good Shooter or not. Because he is not, and that's not debateable at all.

Ironic that you're accusing someone of twisting words, as absolutely no one in this thread has called Stewart a good 3 point shooter like you seem to suggest. The closest anything said to that is page 6 when Billl quoted his stretch of averaging 36% on 4.2 attempts as "pretty good for a young big", but that's not the same. The rest of us are just speculating that he has the potential to be good (or at least average) based on what we've seen so far. I quoted that I expected at least 36% this season on reasonable volume - that is league average.

The shooting splits Invictus quoted do show Stewart's efficiency start to drop leading up to his reported injury, but he was also dealing with a shoulder impingement which is not something that would have occurred overnight and one would wonder (and I speculate as someone with 16 years experience in the medical field) that he was already dealing with this shoulder injury as his numbers started to drop. And he never fully recovered from his injury as you seem to think. He was eventually ruled out for the season in late February because of said shoulder impingement.

So no one in this thread actually ever wrote or even implied that Stewart is a good shooter. You just took umbrage with anyone quoting the numbers from his healthy stretch and everything snowballed from there.

[bstein14]

It's way too soon to be making any final judgements on our young guys.

No 22 year old (or younger) NBA player is a final product. The fact that even Hayes can have some insane moments is proof of that.

We need to see to see our guys healthy and performing consistently to really know what we have here.



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Even in Hayes' "great stretch of basketball" he was looking like an average NBA player at best.

[NYPiston]

Yes there is a reason why he shouldn't be around 36% 3 point shooter for a season.

He has been very consistent. He is a 32% 3 point shooter. He improved the volume without reducing the efficiency, that's good, but he is a 32% 3 point shooter when left 100% unguarded and that also matter.

Players have hot stretches, you guys didn't start watching NBA this year, come on.

Stewart is an useful player, he is very limited skillwise, but we can all agree that we love his attitude and his dedication to the game and to the team. He is a great teammate, a great kid. We need to use him properly. He weed to put him in a position where he can succeed.

We tried to turn Knight into something he was not, and the result was a disaster. He was not a PG, he was a SG. He had more TOs than assists for us.

We tried to turn Rodney Stuckey into Chancey, and we destroyed his career.

Stewart is an energy big off the bench. He can be valuable in that role. If put in the proper position, he can defend well, switch well for a big, he is mobile, bring energy and phisicality. That's who he is. 20 mpg behind Duren and whoever end up playing at 4 for us is his place. 7th-8th best player in a contender. That's not bad.

He is not a starter. He definately is not a stretch 4 and he is not a good shooter. Period.

He's still growing into the role, he just started expanding his game to the 3 point line, so I think it's too early to determine that he's a below average shooter until we see a bigger sample size. If he can become a 35-36% shooter with switchable defense then he can be a starter.

I think this upcoming season is make or break for him in terms of determining whether he's a starter long term or just an energy big off the bench. The odds favor him being a high level bench guy long term but there's still a possibility that he can grow into more, it's highly dependent on his ability to stretch the floor because the defense is solid enough.

[Sort]

Beef Stew is turning into our new Discussion Board Killian Hayes, and I consider that a step in the right direction.

[Cowology]

Ima just be a big ol' homer and say I BELIEVE in Stew. Yup. I don't care what his averages are. Gasp!

He's had some very good stretches and from a development standpoint I think he's still relatively early in his arc. This guy will continue to put in the work and will keep getting better.

Am I aware of his 3pt%? Yup. And I still think he's going to be in that 36-38% range. It's just about being healthy and developing some consistency.

He's our starting PF of the future. Learn to love it.

Most likely he is and most likely your take upsets many here who have their own narrative.

Dude is young - locked in now. We'll see how that goes but at worst he would be a rotational player on a good team.

It's up to others to live up to their expectations if we become a good team over the next 2 years.

Cade, Ivey, Duren, Ausar will determine what we become. Stewart fits any quality team you wanna name and he's still aa pup

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM mobile app

I've certainly been wrong before, but I think more goes into player evaluations than raw stats. Even advanced stats don't tell the complete picture and can be misleading at times. You always need to look at context and sort of judge each player on an individual basis. And it's still a ton of guess work.

Look, the way the salary cap is structured you can only support so many max contracts. We may not even be able to keep all 3 of Cade/Ivey/Duren, let alone this mythical PF of the future. I know that is years down the line, but you have to sort of plan that far because of all the rookie extensions that are going to be popping off the next few years. It's going to be a problem.

Players like Stewart are IDEAL as your 4th or 5th starter. You not only need those types of role players, but his contract will actually start looking team friendly in 2-3 years. That's important too when trying to fill out a roster. You really don't have to look very hard to find teams like LA, BKN, DAL etc all trying to figure out how to put talent around their superstars with limited flexibility. Even IF you can assemble this sort of talent there is really no way to keep it. Locking up a guy like Stewart becomes your best move.

And really, all he needs is to hit that league average. If he truly shows no progress this season then I'll walk this back, but I'm guessing he develops into exactly the type of 3&D player we want at that position.

[zeebneeb]

Beef Stew is turning into our new Discussion Board Killian Hayes, and I consider that a step in the right direction.

Yup. In context, this is how I look at it;

18-22 Still figuring it out. No definitive language.

22-25 The word probably starts to creep into the conversation.

25-27 Can't/Won't are parts of the discussion.

27+ They are, who they are.

Now there are always exceptions to the rules. Some players come in hot, exploding onto the scene. Some players are obvious busts, almost day 1.

Stewart changed his whole game to play the 4. We will all get a really good idea of who he is, this year. An upward trajectory, and away we go. New system, New coach, filled out roster. We are all going to learn a ton about all the young guys on this team, this year.

Stewart, and Hayes both have something in common;

They excel in certain areas, actual NBA skills, but have downside. Not every player on the roster can, or will be a superstar, allstar, or even good. There are a bunch of starting players, who win a title, that are bad at certain things, but excel at others, as in, average.

If Cade, plays as I expect him to, and Duren continues to be himself, all Stewart has to be, is either an average,(36%) or even slightly below average three-point shooter,(35%) and the whole things works, because he rebounds, and plays defense, and does all the dirty work.

Let's just see how it plays out, before damming him to the bench.

[Crymson]

Ima just be a big ol' homer and say I BELIEVE in Stew. Yup. I don't care what his averages are. Gasp!

I believe in him as a player as well. I think he'll be in the league a long time. I also don't believe that he has even the slightest chance of being a qualified starting power forward for a contender.

He's had some very good stretches and from a development standpoint I think he's still relatively early in his arc. This guy will continue to put in the work and will keep getting better.

Stewart's greatest weakness is his athleticism, and that weakness is almost undoubtedly going to place a low ceiling on him at power forward. He's strong and he's got very good lateral mobility, but he's also remarkably slow on the run, he's not explosive in the least bit, and he's an unambiguously bad leaper. There's no amount of work he can put in that can change that.

Those shortcomings reduce him from strong defender at center to mediocre, flawed defender at power forward and severely limit his utility on offense at the position. What you with Stewart at power forward on defense is a four who will struggle to chase assignments around the perimeter and through the interior, must go under every screen, and contributes only the most meager of help-side rim defense. On offense, his poor mobility, bad first step, and below-average handle limit him to standstill spot-up threes, and he's largely unable to beat anyone off the ball.

Am I aware of his 3pt%? Yup. And I still think he's going to be in that 36-38% range. It's just about being healthy and developing some consistency.

I think he'll be in the high thirties. I also don't think that's anywhere even remotely near to making power forward a viable position for him. That shooting will be more impactful when he's playing center. An Isaiah who shoots in the high 30s at power forward is still a minus on offense because he'll provide remarkably little else on offense by the standards of forwards.

He's our starting PF of the future. Learn to love it.

I'm curious what leads you to believe that this is the case.

[Crymson]

Stewart changed his whole game to play the 4. We will all get a really good idea of who he is, this year. An upward trajectory, and away we go. New system, New coach, filled out roster. We are all going to learn a ton about all the young guys on this team, this year.

Stewart, and Hayes both have something in common;

They excel in certain areas, actual NBA skills, but have downside. Not every player on the roster can, or will be a superstar, allstar, or even good. There are a bunch of starting players, who win a title, that are bad at certain things, but excel at others, as in, average.

Let's just see how it plays out, before damming him to the bench.

Why not try out Killian at center then? The obvious answer is that he doesn't come anywhere close to satisfying the physical requirements for that position. Why not Wiseman at shooting guard? The same applies. And it applies (though less so) to Stewart at power forward as well. His poor athleticism is going to forever put a low cap on his effectiveness at the position, and he can no more improve upon that athleticism than Killian can grow four inches or Wiseman can become hyper-mobile.

Wiseman stands a better shot at becoming an elite pull-up shooter than Stewart does of substantively improving his athleticism by NBA standards, which is to say that the former is simply immensely unlikely whereas the latter is impossible. There are some things that aren't going to change for any player, no matter the work he puts in.

[mattao313]

I guess I'm one of the few that isn't really attached to Stewart. I think he's a bench guy between the level of Plumlee and Biyombo I don't think he's a difference maker at all.

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[Invictus88]

I guess I'm one of the few that isn't really attached to Stewart. I think he's a bench guy between the level of Plumlee and Biyombo I don't think he's a difference maker at all.

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I think he's important enough to the team from a leadership standpoint that it might make sense to keep him around in the short term. (I really hope that Cade assumes more of this role going forward though).

I still view him as a tweener that's better-suited coming off the bench on a good team. He has to make significant strides offensively from last year to be considered otherwise (at the 4) imho.

At this point though unless he gets traded he's going to be here. Here's hoping good things for him in the coming season.

[Spider156]

Ima just be a big ol' homer and say I BELIEVE in Stew. Yup. I don't care what his averages are. Gasp!

He's had some very good stretches and from a development standpoint I think he's still relatively early in his arc. This guy will continue to put in the work and will keep getting better.

Am I aware of his 3pt%? Yup. And I still think he's going to be in that 36-38% range. It's just about being healthy and developing some consistency.

He's our starting PF of the future. Learn to love it.

I’d actually be happy with 35-36% from 3. I think your range deserves 20-25m a year. I don’t think that’s the type of player Stewart is. Even at 33% for his contract it’s pretty good for a guy that can play both PF and C. He’s like a cross between PJ Tucker and Brook Lopez. Both took a very long time to develop their 3 pt shot. He doesn’t have Lopez defense but can defend the center position and perimeter defend big PFs. The question I have isn’t can he shoot the 3. No I know he can shoot the 3 pt shot for sure. It doesn’t matter what % he shoots it at, it matters WHEN he makes his 3 pt shots and for him that’ll be beginning and end of the game, the rest doesn’t matter if he’s giving you help side defense for your center and PF. What’s more important is can he take advantage of his size at PF on offense? Posting smaller PFs would really hurt the other team, also rebounding over PFs. Also can he take advantage of driving past big centers on offense? Those are make and breaks of him being a starting PF vs a backup. Either way, he’s getting paid to be a backup PF so we’re not losing specially when he’s setting the culture of the team. I know sports well enough that what happens off the court is probably way more effective for a guy like him in terms of team morale on defense, hard work ethic in the weight room, serious discipline that sets the standard across the whole roster. Stewart is Detroit basketball and that’s why he deserved the contract. The fact that the Celtics, Pelicans are still asking for him in potential trades should put the argument to rest about how valuable Stewart is.

[zeebneeb]

Ima just be a big ol' homer and say I BELIEVE in Stew. Yup. I don't care what his averages are. Gasp!

He's had some very good stretches and from a development standpoint I think he's still relatively early in his arc. This guy will continue to put in the work and will keep getting better.

Am I aware of his 3pt%? Yup. And I still think he's going to be in that 36-38% range. It's just about being healthy and developing some consistency.

He's our starting PF of the future. Learn to love it.

Most likely he is and most likely your take upsets many here who have their own narrative.

Dude is young - locked in now. We'll see how that goes but at worst he would be a rotational player on a good team.

It's up to others to live up to their expectations if we become a good team over the next 2 years.

Cade, Ivey, Duren, Ausar will determine what we become. Stewart fits any quality team you wanna name and he's still aa pup

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM mobile app

I've certainly been wrong before, but I think more goes into player evaluations than raw stats. Even advanced stats don't tell the complete picture and can be misleading at times. You always need to look at context and sort of judge each player on an individual basis. And it's still a ton of guess work.

Look, the way the salary cap is structured you can only support so many max contracts. We may not even be able to keep all 3 of Cade/Ivey/Duren, let alone this mythical PF of the future. I know that is years down the line, but you have to sort of plan that far because of all the rookie extensions that are going to be popping off the next few years. It's going to be a problem.

Players like Stewart are IDEAL as your 4th or 5th starter. You not only need those types of role players, but his contract will actually start looking team friendly in 2-3 years. That's important too when trying to fill out a roster. You really don't have to look very hard to find teams like LA, BKN, DAL etc all trying to figure out how to put talent around their superstars with limited flexibility. Even IF you can assemble this sort of talent there is really no way to keep it. Locking up a guy like Stewart becomes your best move.

And really, all he needs is to hit that league average. If he truly shows no progress this season then I'll walk this back, but I'm guessing he develops into exactly the type of 3&D player we want at that position.

Excellent point. Can't have extreme salaries at every position.

Gotta make concessions somewhere.